Another example of USA Gun Laws (or lack of...)?

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Message 1914849 - Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 15:45:51 UTC - in response to Message 1914848.  
Last modified: 24 Jan 2018, 16:21:03 UTC

Unfortunately, The Left and Progressives have stopped all discussions regarding the individual's responsibility for bad parenting and dysfunctional families. Which leads to crime and violence.
The Left's and Progressives excuse/explanation is Malevolent Outside Forces. Which means we cannot hold individuals responsible for their bad decisions.
Edit: Also include The Right and Conservatives 'explanation' that a Social Welfare State also promotes the Dysfunctional Family.

So you mean that it's the parents bad parenting that is the fault that so much crime and violence exists among the people that are poor and living in an alienation.
And.
A Social Welfare State also promotes the Dysfunctional Family

That's nonsense.
If so, we who lives in the Nordic Countries in Europe, would be be VERY Dysfunctional.

Not nonsense. Just an excuse, by both the Left and Right for different reasons, to explain away individual choice.

Having grownup on the streets, in a neighborhood that had the following belief: Only three types of boys are raised here. Cops, Criminals and Priests.

I, and others, made choices with the same life experiences. Take seriously bad drugs, or not. Align yourself with criminal gangs, or not. Hurt and rob other people, or not. Deal drugs, or not.

Personal note: I was about 14 years old and standing on an street corner looking at a drug dealer. He had money and girls. My initial thought was that his was a choice in life to leave poverty. But... Then I realized that most of the drug dealers only a few years back. Were either in jail or dead. Therefore his choice was not only evil, but stupid. Some who I grew up with made evil and stupid decisions.

Those that excuse an individual's decision to commit evils because of outside 'influences'. Believe that 'others' are inferior to them and cannot be held to a high level of individual responsibilities.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Message 1914860 - Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 17:38:32 UTC - in response to Message 1914837.  

The stupidity continues in cowboy land.

At least two dead, 17 injured in shooting at Kentucky high school.

No cheers.

Yes, perhaps one day they will teach how to be a parent as a mandatory class.

Unfortunately, The Left and Progressives have stopped all discussions regarding the individual's responsibility for bad parenting and dysfunctional families, which leads to crime and violence.

If you had said the Right and the ultra conservatives, we might have believed you. Because for most of history the rest of the world has been to the left of present day USA.
It is the Republicans that support gun ownership by a large margin, almost 2:1. Also in the last 20 years the reason for ownership has changed from being for hunting to protection. (look it up at PEW) And it doesn't look like many are being protected.

The Left's and Progressives excuse/explanation is Malevolent Outside Forces. Which means we cannot hold individuals responsible for their bad decisions.

Edit: Also include The Right and Conservatives 'explanation' that a Social Welfare State also promotes the Dysfunctional Family.

Perhaps... But that still doesn't excuse bad individual decisions.

And moomin has it right except he restricted it to just his Scandiwegian corner of the World.

Also you didn't read your NYT AGAIN
Nothing Divides Voters Like Owning a Gun
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Message 1914864 - Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 18:15:16 UTC
Last modified: 24 Jan 2018, 18:19:06 UTC

Also you didn't read your NYT AGAIN
Nothing Divides Voters Like Owning a Gun

#1- It is not my New York Times. It is the New York Times.

#2 - Agree about gun ownership division.

Your dismissal of the below. Is why we cannot truly discuss individual responsibility for actions.

The Left's and Progressives excuse/explanation is Malevolent Outside Forces. Which means we cannot hold individuals responsible for their bad decisions.
Edit: Also include The Right and Conservatives 'explanation' that a Social Welfare State also promotes the Dysfunctional Family.
Perhaps... But that still doesn't excuse bad individual decisions.

Those blaming outside forces and not an individual's actions. Are the real problem.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Message 1914866 - Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 18:20:42 UTC - in response to Message 1914864.  

You claim to still subscribe to the New York Times, therefore you are not reading your NYT.
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Message 1914870 - Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 18:26:28 UTC - in response to Message 1914866.  
Last modified: 24 Jan 2018, 18:28:33 UTC

You claim to still subscribe to the New York Times, therefore you are not reading your NYT.

Guessing you didn't read my reply. So I will repeat with added emphasis.

Also you didn't read your NYT AGAIN
Nothing Divides Voters Like Owning a Gun

#1- It is not my New York Times. It is the New York Times.

#2 - Agree about gun ownership division.

Your dismissal of the below. Is why we cannot truly discuss individual responsibility for actions.

The Left's and Progressives excuse/explanation is Malevolent Outside Forces. Which means we cannot hold individuals responsible for their bad decisions.
Edit: Also include The Right and Conservatives 'explanation' that a Social Welfare State also promotes the Dysfunctional Family.
Perhaps... But that still doesn't excuse bad individual decisions.

Those blaming outside forces and not an individual's actions. Are the real problem.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana
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Message 1914875 - Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 18:50:23 UTC - in response to Message 1914837.  

The stupidity continues in cowboy land.

At least two dead, 17 injured in shooting at Kentucky high school.

No cheers.

Yes, perhaps one day they will teach how to be a parent as a mandatory class.

Unfortunately, The Left and Progressives have stopped all discussions regarding the individual's responsibility for bad parenting and dysfunctional families, which leads to crime and violence.

The Left's and Progressives excuse/explanation is Malevolent Outside Forces. Which means we cannot hold individuals responsible for their bad decisions.

Edit: Also include The Right and Conservatives 'explanation' that a Social Welfare State also promotes the Dysfunctional Family.

Perhaps... But that still doesn't excuse bad individual decisions.

ROTFLMAO.

Conservatives pray their children will be okay and beat the $*** out of them if they don't obey GOD, but don't care about the law.

Liberals work three jobs and can't be there to parent their children.
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Message 1914879 - Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 18:57:24 UTC - in response to Message 1914875.  

The stupidity continues in cowboy land.

At least two dead, 17 injured in shooting at Kentucky high school.

No cheers.

Yes, perhaps one day they will teach how to be a parent as a mandatory class.

Unfortunately, The Left and Progressives have stopped all discussions regarding the individual's responsibility for bad parenting and dysfunctional families, which leads to crime and violence.

The Left's and Progressives excuse/explanation is Malevolent Outside Forces. Which means we cannot hold individuals responsible for their bad decisions.

Edit: Also include The Right and Conservatives 'explanation' that a Social Welfare State also promotes the Dysfunctional Family.

Perhaps... But that still doesn't excuse bad individual decisions.

ROTFLMAO.

Conservatives pray their children will be okay and beat the $*** out of them if they don't obey GOD, but don't care about the law.

Liberals work three jobs and can't be there to parent their children.

Your malevolent and false attack is par for your posts.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana
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Message 1914880 - Posted: 24 Jan 2018, 19:00:02 UTC
Last modified: 24 Jan 2018, 19:00:53 UTC

Sorry moomin...

We were having a very serious back-and-forth disagreement regarding individual responsibility for actions.

But the 'Commendering of Discussions' ones. Could not let it continue.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana
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Message 1917525 - Posted: 7 Feb 2018, 22:38:03 UTC - in response to Message 1914587.  

In the UK, if you want/need to renew your shotgun license you need to apply about 3 months before the present one runs out.

I don't own a shotgun, but do help on the farm that is about 100 yds (meters) down the lane, when required.


Actually holding a Shotgun Certificate is still a Right in the UK, you don't need to give a reason for wanting one, but if you did say you wanted a Shotgun for Personal Protection that would immediately mean your application would be refused, on the basis of you being a risk to Public Safety.

For a Shotgun Certificate, the Police have to give you a Legal Reason for not issuing you with a Certificate.

Once you have a Certificate, if you are over 18 you can own as many shotguns as you can store securely, the secure storage will be inspected, a Shotgun can be legally possessed if the barrel is at least 24' in length, has a calibre of no larger than 2", and can hold no more than 3 shells, including one in the breech. Each one has to be listed on your Certificate, including its serial number, and if it doesn't have a serial number that still does not bar ownership, I own an old Belgian .410 where on the Certificate I have the Entry of 'no serial number' where the serial number should be.

However, children as young as 7 have been issued Shotgun Certificates in the UK, this is perfectly legal as anyone under 18 has to be supervised by an licensed adult. Someone under 18 cannot buy a Shotgun or Firearm (14 year olds can hold a Firearms Certificate), but they can own one given as a gift (yes the Law is a bit weird), and can use only under adult supervision. Adult supervision extends to the gun being locked away securely by an adult, and the child having no access into the secure storage.

However, on a farm, 'supervision' means the adult has to be in the same field or within shouting distance..

Usually an adult for supervision purposes is unusually someone over 21 years, rather than the Legal Age of 18 years, which is a throw back to when the Legal Age for an adult was 21 years.

So perhaps as Shotguns are so freely available here in terms of licensing, its our own culture that makes people not wish to own them anyway.

In terms of costs, sub 12 ft/lb air rifles even second hand are exorbitantly priced here, because they don't need licensing (except in Scotland, Northern Ireland, and the Isle of Man), we're talking more than a £1000 for some models, yet you can pick up a second hand Shotgun for £40 (I did), the barrier must be psychological to our culture and society, since for £79.50 you can apply for a Certificate, and then get a shotgun for £40, or indeed buy a new one for a couple of hundred, or buy as many as you can safely secure in storage.

If prepared to undertake the Firearms Licensing process here (£88 application fee), you can apply for a Firearms Certificate if you have a Good Legal Reason for Possession, which the Police will investigate. Its all very pleasant as a process, you're not interrogated, although the background checks are more expansive and undertaken by Special Branch Officers.

I have thought about becoming a Registered Firearms Dealer (£200 application fee), as long as you create a Gun Room to Home Office Approved Standards, you can operate from your own home, and no-one knows anything about it, because you would become known to the local Legal Gun Owners through word of mouth, and wouldn't need to advertise your presence, indeed, the Police would advise you not to even tell your neighbours, since that is the standard security advice here for any Firearms Owner, to ensure that no criminal element finds out where guns might be stored.

This security advice is effective, since the number of legally owned guns falling into criminal hands is virtually non-existent. All illegally possessed guns in the UK are usually illegally imported. Yet our crime figures show these are not used by the vast majority of crime, since illegal possession carries a mandatory five years prison, there being no legal defence.

The extract below is from Wikipedia

'The first Special Branch in the world was formed in London in 1883. It spread throughout the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Each British police force went on to form its own Special Branch, the largest being that of the Metropolitan Police until it was merged with the Metropolitan Police Anti-Terrorist Branch (SO13) to form Counter Terrorism Command or SO15 in 2006. Special Branch maintained contact with the Security Service. Although they were not part of the Criminal Investigation Department (CID), they were entitled to use the prefix "Detective" in front of their ranks.

Special Branch had responsibility for, amongst other things, personal protection of (non-royal) VIPs and performing the role of examining officer at designated ports and airports, as prescribed by the Terrorism Act 2000.

The intelligence work of Special Branch was often overlooked in some circles. This is because its role sat somewhere between that of the Security Service (MI5) and that of the Metropolitan Police Anti-Terrorist Branch (SO13). Special Branch officers were usually the ones to perform arrests of suspected spies, since Security Service officers are not authorised to take such actions; an example being the Portland Spy Ring.

It was announced, in September 2005, that the Metropolitan Police Special Branch would be merging with the Anti-Terrorism Branch of the Metropolitan Police to form a new department called Counter Terrorism Command, with the new department coming into being on 2 October 2006, thus completing a process begun when the investigative wing of the Special Branch X squad became The Anti-Terrorist Branch in 1972.

Most, if not all UK police services still maintain a Special Branch. However, regional counter terrorism units and organised crime units have since been established between smaller forces.'

I have nothing to hide and nothing to fear, as I am a law abiding citizen, my guns are tools for pest control, deer management, and sporting equipment, I have no need or wish to point them at anyone. I did quite enough of that in military service, and while I'd probably want to possess a weapon for Self Protection if I was a resident in the US, I would consider the whole thing a very backward, fearful, and none trusting experience, where carrying guns will only increase the risk of being shot and injured in a society where you continuously worry about the level of your Health Insurance.

Just my tuppence worth.
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Message 1917527 - Posted: 7 Feb 2018, 23:13:24 UTC - in response to Message 1914834.  

Well...

Since we never accepted Nazism, Communism or Socialism. We are not that stupid ;-)


Neither did we matey, the 1920 Firearms Act was a direct result of the Bolshevik Revolution, we're a capitalist country, where modern Human Rights were first established 1215, where we beheaded an Absolute Monarch and became effectively a Republic 1649, didn't like it, and established a Constitutional Monarchy with Executive Power held by an elected government 1660, wrote the Bill of Rights 1689, about 100 years before your own.

Your Grandparents might have sat on their arses between 1939-41 while the British and Commonwealth fought Nazism, maybe you should ask them to remind you., along with fighting alongside the British and Commonwealth for another four years.

You might believe all the political rhetoric about 'socialized healthcare' in the UK, but on any measure, the NHS is effectively Number 1 in the World, and is cheaper per capita than the cost of provision in the US, it's not broken, its under strain caused by idiots in Parliament, and stupid choices made in mass immigration, health tourism, and fraud by foreigners.

Unlike the US, the British experienced Total War two years before the Germans, and also experienced indiscriminate bombing of civilians from all walks of life, and this brought everyone together, whether a rich toff or a common labourer, both sheltered together, both fought together, both died together, this caused a total change in the way care was provided in the UK, it went from the pre-war archaic system you maintain in the US, to the system of Government funded healthcare for all in a capitalist society, with funds raised from general taxation. This system is the envy of the World.

No-one in the UK is bankrupted through illness and medical expenses, there are none, and we don't have 28 Million People wondering about with no care at all because they can't afford it. No-one worries about Medical Insurance and whether they can or cannot take a new job based on the provision and cost, or pre-existing conditions, because you don't need crap like that hanging over your head like the Sword of Damocles.

So take your ridiculous references to Nazism, Communism, and Socialism, and stick them where the Sun don't shine, you're just showing your ignorance of history, or the failings of your education system, where people tend to shoot each other a lot.
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Message 1917531 - Posted: 7 Feb 2018, 23:32:48 UTC
Last modified: 7 Feb 2018, 23:35:18 UTC

So take your ridiculous references to Nazism, Communism, and Socialism, and stick them where the Sun don't shine, you're just showing your ignorance of history, or the failings of your education system, where people tend to shoot each other a lot.

Having lived and worked in Western Europe. Your belief in your superiority over the USA, is par for the course and not warranted.

The continuous exposure of their ignorance of a country's political system and diverse cultures. Whose peoples, who they only really know by circus like TV shows, Hollywood fantasies and ideological driven media and academia. Is a wonder to behold.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Message 1917532 - Posted: 7 Feb 2018, 23:35:53 UTC - in response to Message 1917531.  
Last modified: 7 Feb 2018, 23:36:32 UTC

The continuous exposure of their ignorance of a country and its political system and diverse cultures. Whose peoples, who they only really know by circus like TV shows, Hollywood fantasies and ideological driven media. Is a wonder to behold.

What is a wonder is that our people feed on that pap, it says much about our culture.
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Message 1917533 - Posted: 7 Feb 2018, 23:38:19 UTC - in response to Message 1917532.  
Last modified: 7 Feb 2018, 23:41:37 UTC

The continuous exposure of their ignorance of a country and its political system and diverse cultures. Whose peoples, who they only really know by circus like TV shows, Hollywood fantasies and ideological driven media. Is a wonder to behold.

What is a wonder is that our people feed on that pap, it says much about our culture.

So you haven't been paying attention to their ignorance of our political system and diverse culture in these forums.

BTW: You are also not superior to 'the people'. Yes, they do understand and dismiss your attacks against them.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Message 1917535 - Posted: 7 Feb 2018, 23:46:21 UTC - in response to Message 1917533.  
Last modified: 7 Feb 2018, 23:47:46 UTC

BTW: You are also not superior to 'the people'

How do you know?
Yes, they do understand and dismiss your attacks against them.

So what? Being attacked by ideologues is a badge of distinction.
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Message 1917537 - Posted: 7 Feb 2018, 23:58:41 UTC - in response to Message 1917535.  
Last modified: 8 Feb 2018, 0:15:14 UTC

BTW: You are also not superior to 'the people'

How do you know?
Yes, they do understand and dismiss your attacks against them.

So what? Being attacked by ideologues is a badge of distinction.

So now you're attacking the 'inferior' people, irredeemable deplorables, the masses, et al, as "ideologues"!
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Message 1917545 - Posted: 8 Feb 2018, 0:32:55 UTC - in response to Message 1917531.  

So take your ridiculous references to Nazism, Communism, and Socialism, and stick them where the Sun don't shine, you're just showing your ignorance of history, or the failings of your education system, where people tend to shoot each other a lot.

Having lived and worked in Western Europe. Your belief in your superiority over the USA, is par for the course and not warranted.

The continuous exposure of their ignorance of a country's political system and diverse cultures. Whose peoples, who they only really know by circus like TV shows, Hollywood fantasies and ideological driven media and academia. Is a wonder to behold.


Utter drivel, I'm not being superior at all, its you that assume this, I merely defend my country from your verbal assault and state the truth, and its you that feels inferior enough to comment like that, well that's not my bag, that's yours feller.

Just because you start an argument you think you're going to win, with some throw away comment and call a whole continent and particularly the British as stupid, and realise that the responses show your position isn't quite as sound as you thought doesn't give you the platform of accusing others of being superior, to any reasonable person you seem to be grasping at any straw that gives you hope of having the last word, just stop this bullshit, all you're doing is reinforcing everyone's belief that you have so little to contribute here.

Just grow up.
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Message 1917556 - Posted: 8 Feb 2018, 1:07:50 UTC - in response to Message 1917537.  

So now you're attacking the 'inferior' people, irredeemable deplorables, the masses, et al, as "ideologues"!

Some are and I am not and find that to be deplorable, do you?
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Message 1917568 - Posted: 8 Feb 2018, 1:38:16 UTC - in response to Message 1917556.  

So now you're attacking the 'inferior' people, irredeemable deplorables, the masses, et al, as "ideologues"!

Some are and I am not and find that to be deplorable, do you?

Those that believe they are superior to others, as you do. Not that that others are wrong in their beliefs.

Have, if they gain power. Committed the greatest crimes against humanity.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Message 1917571 - Posted: 8 Feb 2018, 1:45:56 UTC
Last modified: 8 Feb 2018, 1:48:34 UTC

I merely defend my country from your verbal assault and state the truth, and its you that feels inferior enough to comment like that, well that's not my bag, that's yours feller.

Your "truth" is just yours.

Your belief that only non Americans are allowed to have negative opinions about another country. Is over.

Welcome, because of International Social Media, to the free and wide ranging opinions of others. Who have negative opinions about your country and culture, as you have about their country and culture.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Message 1917572 - Posted: 8 Feb 2018, 1:48:21 UTC

Let's not try to draw conclusions about other posters' beliefs or personalities.

Just keep it to the topic.
The mind is a weird and mysterious place
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