This system appears to be a "quick top up" charge, not a "full recharge from flat" hence the short time required. Also there is the few hours overnight "maintenance charge", presumably to get the battery back to nearly fully charged ready for the morning rush. The "swap out" may work in certain circumstances, particularly where there is a suitable location for doing the swap (not a "good idea" in the middle of the Kings Cross Road at midday) with the necessary infrastructure to store and charge the batteries off the vehicle.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Or Oxford Street :-)

Not sure which would be "better" ;-)

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

LOL. There have been some good points mentioned but I have often seen many a routemaster broken down & needing recovery. In fact I have needed recovery in London several times over the years. If it does go all electric eventually, can a heavy duty recovery vehicle actually be powerful enough on batteries?

Probably - given the short range such a vehicle would require (only about 20 miles or so round trip) and the power of many of the traction motors available (>500kW/670hp). And the weight of all those batteries would certainly help sticking the driving wheels to the road!

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Whats actually happening in London now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emission_buses_in_London

Hydrogen power is a viable alternative both for transportation and energy storage.

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Kevin

Nice to see some things hasn't changed :-)

I doubt that hydrogen will be a viable alternative either to "dyno fuels" or straight electric for some time to come as there are some very considerable technological barriers to surmount for both the storage & transfer of the fuel.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

I doubt that hydrogen will be a viable alternative either to "dyno fuels" or straight electric for some time to come as there are some very considerable technological barriers to surmount for both the storage & transfer of the fuel.

Refueling and storage are improving as well as the efficiency of the fuel cells, there is also the perceived risk to the public, but as technology improves it becomes a viable alternative.

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Kevin

I doubt that hydrogen will be a viable alternative either to "dyno fuels" or straight electric for some time to come as there are some very considerable technological barriers to surmount for both the storage & transfer of the fuel.

Refueling and storage are improving as well as the efficiency of the fuel cells, there is also the perceived risk to the public, but as technology improves it becomes a viable alternative.

The risk from Hydrogen probably isn't nearly as bad as people think it is. And the fact is Petrol is very dangerous under the right conditions, people have just gotten use to having it around & generally don't realise just how dangerous it can be.

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Grant
Darwin NT

Note: - I did not mention safety of using hydrogen as a road fuel. this was quite deliberate.
Many of the issues are much the same as working with any compressed gas in that you have to contain it at all times, have simple but secure filling couplings (much better than those used for LPG please), filling stations have to be usable and accessible. Then there is the energy content of the Hydrogen, it is significantly lower per unit mass or volume than hydrocarbon fuels thus for combustion purposes you need more of it for a given power, and that means a large volume very high pressure tank system. The energy recovery using fuel cells is getting better, but they still tend to be a "fragile" technology, so more work is required to make them realistically robust for use in road/rail transport systems.
One thing that the proponents of hydrogen still have to overcome is the high energy cost of refining it from whatever feedstock you choose. although there are rumours (and have been for a good few years) that a bacterial solution is just round the corner - lab scale production has taken place for a number of years but, for whatever reason, the scaling up to industrial quantities just hasn't taken place.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

... a bacterial solution is just round the corner - lab scale production has taken place for a number of years but, for whatever reason, the scaling up to industrial quantities just hasn't taken place.

I hesitate to mention the habits of entrenched corporate near-monopolists - whether in the oil industry or others - to, er, 'discourage' the development of alternatives to their product. But I just have.

I doubt that the electric fad will pass unless there is a massive and fundamental societal change. People want to travel, require goods to be moved vast distances in reasonable timescales. Unless society changes to the point that everyone lives, works and gathers food, clothing etc in a very small radius (1-2 miles) then travel & transport are going to be required. Hydrocarbon fuel sources are a finite resource, thus we, as a society, have to re-think how we do things. There are loads of questions as to which direction we should head: do we continue burning hydrocarbons to move us and our materials until it actually runs out? Do we go back to the "horse and cart" for land travel with wind power for sea travel (and forget flying)? Develop other energy technologies? Use electricity for everything? These are societal questions, that many in society are not prepared to think about because, just now, energy from hydrocarbons is "cheap" and "known", while the "new technologies" are seen as "not for today, we'll think about them tomorrow".
Don't forget that both the internal combustion engine and the electric motor go back to the late 1700s and early 1800s, so are more or less contemporaries of each other. I would venture to suggest that had more effort been expended on developing battery technology in the late 1800s and early 1900s we would now be using far more electric vehicles than we are.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Excellent post. Highlights the major problems with logistics which many do not even think about. I've driven both electric & IC. Electric is nice. Quiet & clean, but until it can cover the major bottleneck of Logistics - Manufacturer to Distribution Centre to shop/end user, we're stuck with IC.

I agree - one place that electric does "look promising" is on the short delivery hops, just a few tens of miles daily, low speed in heavy traffic where IC is at its worst and electric is currently at its best. Just now trunking (for humans or cargo) isn't looking very promising, the range just isn't there yet, but as Tesla has shown battery technology and power management is improving rapidly so I don't think it will be too long before we see "normal" electric cars with three hundred mile plus range and overnight charging capability.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

I agree with everything there, but would just add one extra point: hydrocarbons have other uses apart from simply burning them as a fuel. If we run them down to zero, we also lose them as chemical feedstocks for, e.g., the plastics industry. Rob's cart behind the horse, and his cargo boat, will be wooden again: no fuel for transport, no plastics, no fuel to smelt metal.

I agree - one place that electric does "look promising" is on the short delivery hops, just a few tens of miles daily, low speed in heavy traffic where IC is at its worst and electric is currently at its best.

As demonstrated for decades by the humble milk float - which is probably better at frequent stop-start delivery work than the IC engine.

you can also bump start them. You can't do that with a 12.5 ton London bus!!

Can't answer that one, but with HGV rigids, it's easy & have done so several times, to the amazement of the youngsters :-)

I have photographic evidence that you can - with a single-decker coach, at least.

Meanwhile, one positive outcome of zero oil - no more of these :-)

Would liked to have witnessed that. Many of the old timers in the transport industry have some great stories. I got told one years ago & the guy showed me how he did it. Told me to always carry a ball of twine in my bag, you never know when it will come in handy. Several years later just outside Hatfield on the A1 North, it did. My clutch went. Got home with nary a problem :-)

Can't do it today with all the electronics controlling everything :-(