Transportation Safety 3

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Message 2057735 - Posted: 26 Sep 2020, 12:37:33 UTC - in response to Message 2057714.  

Updates to story posted earlier in week:
Chicago’s ‘Census Cowboy’ charged with animal cruelty after 7-mile ‘Kids Lives Matter’ stunt on freeway leaves horse badly hurt
I didn’t mean no harm on my horse at all. I’m a horse- [and] animal-loving person,” he told reporters.

Then there's this intelligent statement by the felon:
...Despite disputing local authorities’ account of Monday’s stunt, Hollingsworth said he would “do it again” if he had the chance...

I'm glad to see that he's been charged.
I hope that Nunu the horse continues to improve and doesn't have to be put down because of her owner's stupidity.


Meow.
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 2057737 - Posted: 26 Sep 2020, 13:01:02 UTC

I like Wiggo's suggestion for making the punishment fit the crime - I would add "While wearing a saddle on his back, lined with 40grit paper".

Picking up on Mark's comment - here in the UK there's a chance he would be banned from owning/using any horse for a number of years.
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Message 2057751 - Posted: 26 Sep 2020, 22:10:29 UTC

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Message 2057906 - Posted: 29 Sep 2020, 17:13:22 UTC

Perhaps there should be warnings along the lines "Obstructing emergency vehicles may result in your vehicle being removed and damaged or destroyed by the emergency services".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-54346432
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Message 2058828 - Posted: 10 Oct 2020, 14:26:54 UTC

The bugbear of logistics - load distribution, strikes again.
Oops
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Message 2058838 - Posted: 10 Oct 2020, 15:58:46 UTC

Luton Airport - Where a whole load of red face paint was delivered with great effect.
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Message 2058843 - Posted: 10 Oct 2020, 16:21:38 UTC - in response to Message 2058838.  

"Where you truly wafted here from paradise?
Nah, Luton Airport mate".
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Message 2058850 - Posted: 10 Oct 2020, 19:29:12 UTC - in response to Message 2058828.  
Last modified: 10 Oct 2020, 19:31:46 UTC

The bugbear of logistics - load distribution, strikes again.
Oops

What is amazing and very worrying, apart from the breakdown in procedures, is for how NONE of the crew saw anything amiss before rolling down the runway!

Really, are the pilots too rushed to do a final cabin check?...

Also, why did the unexpected behavior for the first two attempts at rotate not immediately lead to aborting the takeoff?...

Also, are there not load sensors on the undercarriage that check the fuel load and take-off weight? Is there no check there also for balance?


Fly safe!
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Message 2058862 - Posted: 10 Oct 2020, 23:00:21 UTC - in response to Message 2058850.  

Is there no check there also for balance?
Yep. It's what the loadmaster & the loading sheet(s) are for.
This near disaster was like most disasters- it wasn't a single issue or point of failure, but multiple issues that lead to the final result.
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Message 2058879 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 4:50:45 UTC - in response to Message 2058850.  

The bugbear of logistics - load distribution, strikes again.
Oops

What is amazing and very worrying, apart from the breakdown in procedures, is for how NONE of the crew saw anything amiss before rolling down the runway!

Really, are the pilots too rushed to do a final cabin check?...

Also, why did the unexpected behavior for the first two attempts at rotate not immediately lead to aborting the takeoff?...

Also, are there not load sensors on the undercarriage that check the fuel load and take-off weight? Is there no check there also for balance?


Fly safe!

Flying is not automated, it is done by hand and seat of pants. In this era of Covid, cockpit crew would never see the Pax. But that's not the final issue. Load master could have had them all sit up front but put baggage/cargo in the aft cargo area to compensate. The pilot doesn't personally put the cargo or the self loading cargo on the plane. The load master is responsible for a weight and balance to assure the CG is within limits. If he uses a form for a different airplane, he will calculate garbage. He gives a summary of the calculations to the pilot. The pilot enters the summary into the FMS and gets his V speeds, runway length, power and trim settings and more.

As to the question on the abort, answer may well be not enough runway left to stop. One you accelerate past V1, you are committed to go flying or crash.
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Message 2058907 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 15:00:14 UTC - in response to Message 2058879.  

... Load master could have had them all sit up front but put baggage/cargo in the aft cargo area to compensate...

For any large passenger airliner, I'm very sure that is never done.


My bets are more on overly rushed procedures and minimum training and other adverse effects of ruthless greedy cost-cutting of a 'low cost airline' for the sake of short term greed and safety is only what the regulations impose...

Fly safe!
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Message 2058913 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 16:05:00 UTC - in response to Message 2058907.  

My bets are more on overly rushed procedures and minimum training and other adverse effects of ruthless greedy cost-cutting of a 'low cost airline' for the sake of short term greed and safety is only what the regulations impose...
Well, someone has to fly the Campari & Lemonade crowd from Luton. :-)
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Message 2058915 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 16:38:40 UTC - in response to Message 2058913.  

My bets are more on overly rushed procedures and minimum training and other adverse effects of ruthless greedy cost-cutting of a 'low cost airline' for the sake of short term greed and safety is only what the regulations impose...
Well, someone has to fly the Campari & Lemonade crowd from Luton. :-)

But do they have to bring them back ;-)
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Message 2058919 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 17:11:14 UTC - in response to Message 2058915.  

Only if they get chased. :-)
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Message 2058930 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 17:50:32 UTC - in response to Message 2058907.  

... Load master could have had them all sit up front but put baggage/cargo in the aft cargo area to compensate...

For any large passenger airliner, I'm very sure that is never done.

So you are of the opinion everything is placed aboard randomly.
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Message 2058935 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 19:05:21 UTC - in response to Message 2058930.  

... Load master could have had them all sit up front but put baggage/cargo in the aft cargo area to compensate...

For any large passenger airliner, I'm very sure that is never done.

So you are of the opinion everything is placed aboard randomly.

?!!

Very much not...

Unless you have a small aircraft juggling large weights, such as passenger aircraft are carefully evenly loaded.

And no, you do not get cargo at one end balancing passengers at the other end on large passenger aircraft!


And so?...

Fly safe!
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Message 2058941 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 19:38:14 UTC

And no, you do not get cargo at one end balancing passengers at the other end on large passenger aircraft!


That entirely depends on how many passengers and how much cargo is being loaded, for a very lightly loaded flight one may end up having to do that. But as already been said the load master is responsible for seeing that the aircraft is loaded such that its centre of gravity is within the certified range (or at least on the ground before engine start - there are some aircraft where there are trim tanks which are used to correct things both on the ground and in the air).
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Message 2058949 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 20:17:29 UTC - in response to Message 2058941.  
Last modified: 11 Oct 2020, 20:32:15 UTC

... That entirely depends on how many passengers and how much cargo is being loaded...

My understanding is that:

  • To keep everything simple and safe;
  • And to avoid multiple possible 'cock-ups';...

Both cargo and passengers are both loaded, evenly distributed, from the wings[*]/Centre-of-Lift outwards...


That might get varied for multi-drop freight flights.

The tail trim fuel tanks can only do so much to trim the balance. So why make things obscure/hard with seesaw cleverness?


Fly safe!
Martin

[*] There are rear-engined planes where the balance[**] is not where you might expect!

[**] And then there is the Boeing 737NG/737MAX where the pilot must actively adjust the trim to also compensate against adverse pitch-up from engine thrust and additionally adverse aerodynamics from the engines nacelles...


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Message 2058955 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 20:58:37 UTC - in response to Message 2058949.  
Last modified: 11 Oct 2020, 21:02:56 UTC

... That entirely depends on how many passengers and how much cargo is being loaded...

My understanding is that:

On most airlines today PAX can select their own seats well before boarding time. Load master gets a list of sold seats and uses the "standard weight" of a PAX. He also has a list of cargo and weights. He has to decide where the cargo goes in the cargo holds. Some cargo may be in containers that only fit in specific places. That might be an extra heavy or an extra light container.
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Message 2058957 - Posted: 11 Oct 2020, 21:09:55 UTC - in response to Message 2058955.  

On most airlines today PAX can select their own seats well before boarding time.

Indeed so.

And there is the regulatory assumed weight for each passenger. Hopefully that is adjusted for such as the USA for their averagely 'oversized' passengers...

Now... For the selections I've seen, you are restricted as to where you can choose...


Load master gets a list of sold seats and uses the "standard weight" of a PAX. He also has a list of cargo and weights. He has to decide where the cargo goes in the cargo holds.

Really, has that not been automated?... Do you have any links for that?


Some cargo may be in containers that only fit in specific places. That might be an extra heavy or an extra light container.

Unless you're talking military or special freight, there are very standard 'unitainers'/pallets that can be loaded at any allocated location...


Will be very interested in any links for any actual procedures... ;-)


Fly safe!
Martin
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