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Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31013 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
They have the door. |
Admiral Gloval Send message Joined: 31 Mar 13 Posts: 21294 Credit: 5,308,449 RAC: 0 |
Phones, headrest, and door plug that fell 16,000 feet from Alaska Airlines plane found in Portland area. United Airlines doing maintenance checks have found loose bolts on their aircraft as well. |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22535 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
BBC report with a bit about the United B737 Max-9 plug door findings: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67919436 This whole story is getting quite worrying :-( Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
I heard a brief snatch of a live BBC interview with an industry specialist - unfortunately it doesn't seem to be on the repeat list or available in text yet. His suggestion was that in previous generations of aircraft the plug would be designed as a frustum - a truncated cone, like a bathplug - fitted from the inside. That would mean that during flight the air pressure differential would simply bed the plug even more firmly into its seating. It sounds obvious, really, but he suggested that the 737 Max was a design outlier in this respect. Anybody here able to confirm that? |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22535 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
I can't comment on the earlier B737 types, but relying on a small contact area and a small number of fixings for such a vital part of an airframe looks to be a weak point looking to fail. It's hard to see the exact size of the "stop pads" on the door but they appear to be about 25mm in diameter, while the lower "locking thing" is only about 40mm in effective length, and it's sprung to open. Thus, assuming everything is lined up properly only 25mm of movement is required to release the plug from the aperture and another 15mm for the plug to become free floating & so relying on the thin "safety wires" to stop it flying off into the wide blue yonder. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31013 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I heard a brief snatch of a live BBC interview with an industry specialist - unfortunately it doesn't seem to be on the repeat list or available in text yet. Can't verify. However that design could then only accept a traditional door in the frame. Emergency doors are supposed to open out, not have to be hauled in. I think fire service rules have banged into pressurization rules. |
rob smith Send message Joined: 7 Mar 03 Posts: 22535 Credit: 416,307,556 RAC: 380 |
It's very easy to get the "blanking plate" that failed to stay in place in this accident with a "door" (emergency or otherwise). This blanking plate should not be able to be opened while the aircraft in service as it requires (or at least should require) tools to dismantle part of the interior and undo a number of bolts. Emergency exits are designed to be opened by a human of "normal" strength (a monstrous handle may be used to assist the process), there is no direct regulation that says they should open outwards, but the average human can push far harder than they can pull. Thus they are designed to be pushed open, being guided by a combination of hinges and guide tracks, the initial movement is generally upwards (probably on an outward curve) then outwards and being either "thrown away" or retained by hinges. This is quite unlike building regulations in many countries that require emergency exits to open outward, and to exit onto a basically level surface landing before any stairs or slopes to allow changes in level - many aircraft emergency exits have slides immediately outside the door so one has to stand on the edge and either drop or jump onto the slide. Bob Smith Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society) Somewhere in the (un)known Universe? |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 31013 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
There are two types of doors on large PAX aircraft today. Those normal ones that hinge on the side and they drive they drive the ramps or stairs up to. Once the aircraft pulls away from the terminal building the cabin crew is supposed to arm them as emergency exits so the slide deploys if opened. The other doors are the over wing emergency exits. They generally do an up and out because they don't have a cabin crew there to operate it. Some aircraft seating designs to meet the 90 second rule have to add additional doors in between the normal rear exit doors and the over wing exits. They also are of the over wing design. On the max9 they can be 1) Operating, 2) Deactivated, 3) Plug. The airframe doesn't change, just the door. To open a plug you need to remove interior trim, cut safety wire (cotter pin), use a wrench to remove bolts, then you can operate the door. The operating ones have a handle that assists in the up and out. The deactivated ones don't have a handle but would have a safety wire and all covered by interior trim so PAX don't mess with them. As to the report the bolts weren't found, that is good. Bolts didn't shear. [that would be a big problem] Examination of all the maiting surfaces might be able to tell if it was vibration that had them fall out or if they were even there in the first place. BTW loose bolts is only an issue if the castle nut did not have a cotter pin. As long as that safety is there the nut can't come off and the bolt will be in place and the door can't move. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36838 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
Now that I've seen this pic of the inside of the plug I've got to wonder if it was held in by anything at all as the only damage that can be seen on that plug is some witness marks left by the trees when you'd expect to see at least a little bit of tearing somewhere from at least a couple of those bolts. It looks like it could just be bolted back into place. |
Grant (SSSF) Send message Joined: 19 Aug 99 Posts: 13855 Credit: 208,696,464 RAC: 304 |
I heard a brief snatch of a live BBC interview with an industry specialist - unfortunately it doesn't seem to be on the repeat list or available in text yet.I'm wishing i'd kept a copy of the link- when searching on information on aircraft exit doors i found a site showing how these newer doors worked & why. My understanding is that the design was changed when they ran emergency evacuation tests with people that had just been briefed in how to open the emergency exit (eg just like a passenger), and not actually trained in their operation, and found they significantly impeded the evacuation of the aircraft. The old style of over wing emergency exit doors are like the main cabin doors- the door has to be pulled into the cabin before it can be opened. In the case of the over wing exits, the entire door has to be pulled into the cabin far enough to turn it on it's side to then push it outside of the aircraft so as to not impede the other passengers trying to get out. When untrained people tried to operate such doors as a part of a drill, often they struggled to open the door and get it outside the aircraft within the specified time frame. From memory the newer overwing exits require the door to drop slightly after the lock has been released, then it should fall outward/easily be pushed outward, being hinged on the bottom. This allows people that aren't actually trained in how to use the door to open it quickly enough to make it possible to evacuate the aircraft within the time limit specified. I suspect (but don't actually know) that such mechanisms can't be operated at altitude due to the pressurisation of the aircraft (such as with the main doors). Only once the internal & external pressures have normalised can the locking mechanism be released. Grant Darwin NT |
Richard Haselgrove Send message Joined: 4 Jul 99 Posts: 14679 Credit: 200,643,578 RAC: 874 |
Is it possible for the human brain to hold two separate concepts in the foreground at the same time? We have a hole designed into the side of an aeroplane, with two purposes: 1) to hold a quick-release emergency door, which they would like to open outwards. 2) to hold a semi-permanent blanking plate, which can be removed for major servicing, but cannot be removed in flight. The solution would seem to be to build a combined door+frame assembly, carrying both components of the quick-release mechanism: but designed, like its matching blanking plate, to be installed from the inside where heavy-duty ground handling equipment is available. |
Admiral Gloval Send message Joined: 31 Mar 13 Posts: 21294 Credit: 5,308,449 RAC: 0 |
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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24912 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Thankfully no injurues have been reported., no bridge involved this time. Oh dear On the other side of the pond... Boeing jets won't fly until safe |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1194 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
You will be relieved to know there are no models of this plane in the UK. They are mainly used for internal domestic flights within the U.S.Hmmm, Icelandair operates four Max 9 together with their Max 8 fleet. They occasionally fly to London, Manchester and Glasgow, also in previous days. Their Max 9's haven't been grounded. Icelandair has certainly checked doorplugs, if any are installed. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19404 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
You will be relieved to know there are no models of this plane in the UK. They are mainly used for internal domestic flights within the U.S.Hmmm, Icelandair operates four Max 9 together with their Max 8 fleet. They occasionally fly to London, Manchester and Glasgow, also in previous days. Their Max 9's haven't been grounded. Icelandair has certainly checked doorplugs, if any are installed. https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/what-airlines-regulators-are-doing-about-boeing-737-max-jets-2024-01-07/ ICELANDAIR |
Dr Who Fan Send message Joined: 8 Jan 01 Posts: 3346 Credit: 715,342 RAC: 4 |
Not sure if this was already posted as things related to the door are split in two or 3 forum topics. Maybe a moderator can try to merge the various posts into one new topic?? NTSB: All 12 stop fittings disengaged on Alaska plane door plug causing blowout Clint Crookshanks, Aerospace engineer at NTSB, explained what caused the door plug of the B737-9 MAX to expel from the fuselage. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36838 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
Well that explains that. Final moments of fatal plane crash at Melbourne's Port Phillip Bay revealed. |
Suzie-Q Send message Joined: 9 Mar 07 Posts: 3352 Credit: 4,746,812 RAC: 1 |
Just a short update. David's obituary will appear in the Naperville Sun in the coming days. It was written by David's godfather who has known the family since the late 1950s. So please pardon any errors. It is as follows: David W. Streeter, 57, passed away on December 26, 2023, in Palos Hills, after nearly six months’ hospitalization resulting from a serious fall he suffered at home in July 2023. David was a lifelong resident of Naperville; he was born December 3, 1966 to Paul Streeter and Gail (Grote) Streeter. David attended District 203 schools and graduated from Naperville North High School in 1984 and College of Dupage in 1992. After graduation, he worked for many years at Naperville North High School as a media technician. Like his late father Paul, David was a railroad and model railroading enthusiast. David’s interest in railroading subsequently led him to a job ferrying train crews, picking them up at the end of their shift, or driving them to the origin location of a shift. His unfortunate accident occurred while returning home from work late one July evening. David was predeceased by his parents, both of whom died in 2011; by his grandmother, Grace Grote, of Winfield, who passed away in 2013; and by his aunt, Kathy Fermo, of West Chicago, who died in July 2023. He is survived by some family on his father’s side, but also by loyal friends including other railroad fans. David’s remains, along with those of his parents, will be interred at a later date at Wheatland Township Cemetery. Donations in David’s memory may be made to the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, Illinois, of which David was a member. ~Sue~ |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36838 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
It's so sad when such young people pass away. :-( |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36838 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
The driver of this ute needs his eyes tested. Jetstar flights cancelled after plane crashes into ute at Sydney Airport. |
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