Transportation Safety 3

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Profile Carlos
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Message 2130719 - Posted: 2 Jan 2024, 15:55:43 UTC

Surprised that has not happened in the US. There have been so many close calls lately.
Yes, the Japan Airlines crew deserves the highest of praise, as do the Air Bus designers.
Prays to the families of the Coast Guard crew who were heading to provide relief only to become victims themselves.

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Message 2130746 - Posted: 2 Jan 2024, 22:46:54 UTC

David Streeter has passed away. He never recovered from a fall that happened in August (iirc). He passed on December 26.
~Sue~

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Message 2130750 - Posted: 3 Jan 2024, 0:11:25 UTC

That's sad news Suzie. :-(

R.I.P. David.
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Message 2130751 - Posted: 3 Jan 2024, 5:06:54 UTC

Rest in Peace David.
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Message 2130753 - Posted: 3 Jan 2024, 6:38:51 UTC



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Message 2130761 - Posted: 3 Jan 2024, 13:47:05 UTC

R.I.P.
I bet he's happily conducting the Seti Special.
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Message 2130777 - Posted: 3 Jan 2024, 20:47:27 UTC

The cause has been found.

Newly-released transcripts of the fiery Japan air crash have contradicted the remarks made by one of the pilots.

....The transcripts cover a time period of approximately four minutes prior to the crash on Tuesday evening.

It confirms that at 5.44pm the JAL plane was cleared to land on runway 34R at Tokyo’s Haneda airport.

A few seconds later controllers contacted the Coast Guard plane and told it to “taxi to holding point C5”.

At 5.45pm, the Dash 8 crew member said “taxi to holding point C5, thank you”.

Those seven words means the smaller plane should have stopped short of the runway and waited for further instructions.

However, it appears that plane then entered the runway just as the A350 landed on top of it.

The only surviving crew member of the smaller plane had said he had been given permission to enter the runway. The transcripts appear to contradict this....
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Message 2130783 - Posted: 4 Jan 2024, 1:06:33 UTC - in response to Message 2130777.  

The cause has been found.

Newly-released transcripts of the fiery Japan air crash have contradicted the remarks made by one of the pilots.

....The transcripts cover a time period of approximately four minutes prior to the crash on Tuesday evening.

It confirms that at 5.44pm the JAL plane was cleared to land on runway 34R at Tokyo’s Haneda airport.

A few seconds later controllers contacted the Coast Guard plane and told it to “taxi to holding point C5”.

At 5.45pm, the Dash 8 crew member said “taxi to holding point C5, thank you”.

Those seven words means the smaller plane should have stopped short of the runway and waited for further instructions.

However, it appears that plane then entered the runway just as the A350 landed on top of it.

The only surviving crew member of the smaller plane had said he had been given permission to enter the runway. The transcripts appear to contradict this....

Why it is so vitally important to always use standard phraseology. Missing after Charlie 5 "and hold."

Yes frequencies get congested and there is pressure to drop words for expediency. Dropped words leads to confusion. Confusion leads to lessons taught in blood.

Adding Taxiway Charlie 5 has spot Charlie 5. Makes sense, but can lead to confusion. Perhaps it is time the spots were called something that is not a reused name.
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Message 2130789 - Posted: 4 Jan 2024, 5:42:48 UTC - in response to Message 2130783.  

I'm curious as to what the official procedures are for accessing a live runway.

In some industries, unless a specific clearance is given the SOP is that you are not cleared. I would have thought that would also be the case here- unless you are explicitly cleared to pass a holding point, you must hold until that occurs.

In some of the transcripts i've read, the instructions from the ATC would be along the lines of what taxi way(s) to take to get to the active runway, followed by "you are cleared for immediate take off."
Grant
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Message 2130796 - Posted: 4 Jan 2024, 7:04:07 UTC - in response to Message 2130789.  

Taxi instructions like IFR clearances have a clearance limit in theory. For IFR that is so rarely reached it falls out of the brain after you pass the check ride. For taxi it is more common, but most controllers will explicitly add HOLD at that limit so there is no confusion and a point blank reminder. Best practice? However for IFR with few exceptions you are also given "expect further clearance in X minutes." This for the situation where there is radio failure. After the time and no contact you are cleared "as filed" to the destination. Another wrinkle in IFR is published holding patterns. If the limit point does not have a published holding pattern the controller is going to have to issue instructions for that pattern, e.g. left turns three minute legs. Very hard to fly past such an instruction.
I'm suspecting the Mil pilots were much more familiar with military fields, where ground control and tower may be on the same frequency. In moderate or higher volume civil airports you will never be on an active runway without talking on the tower frequency.
There a lot of holes in this Swiss cheese that aligned.
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Message 2130804 - Posted: 4 Jan 2024, 8:19:38 UTC
Last modified: 4 Jan 2024, 8:23:13 UTC

It's been reported that the NOTAM for Tokyo-Haneda Airport stated that the stop bar lights for taxiway C5 (and several others) were unserviceable at the time of the collision (as of Dec 25).


Like so many other incidents it's looking like there was no one definitive cause, but multiple issues that all occurring together resulted in the crash.
Grant
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Message 2130860 - Posted: 6 Jan 2024, 6:19:58 UTC

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Message 2130885 - Posted: 6 Jan 2024, 20:41:41 UTC
Last modified: 6 Jan 2024, 20:44:09 UTC

All 373-9 Max aircraft in the US have been grounded by the FAA until they have been inspected.

FAA Statement on Temporary Grounding of Certain Boeing 737 MAX 9 Aircraft
Grant
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Message 2130886 - Posted: 6 Jan 2024, 20:45:30 UTC - in response to Message 2130885.  

Here's a link to a news report about this grounding:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67903655
Bob Smith
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Message 2130889 - Posted: 6 Jan 2024, 21:20:56 UTC - in response to Message 2130886.  
Last modified: 6 Jan 2024, 21:31:25 UTC

"Safety is our top priority... " Boeing said.

... My own personal suspicion is: That Marketing/PR/Regulatory "top priority" is their 'top' priority after Directors' bonuses and yet further after Boeing profits...


Fly safe?...

How many more of the ongoing 'incidents' do we gamble with Boeing's designs and manufacturing before yet more hundreds of people are killed?


Myself: If it's Boeing, I ain't going!
Martin
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Message 2130895 - Posted: 7 Jan 2024, 0:23:10 UTC - in response to Message 2130889.  
Last modified: 7 Jan 2024, 0:23:30 UTC

You will be relieved to know there are no models of this plane in the UK. They are mainly used for internal domestic flights within the U.S.
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Message 2130901 - Posted: 7 Jan 2024, 6:19:51 UTC

Interesting. Juan Browne or Blancolireo points out that the latch mechanism of the door was still attached to the air frame and the air frame had no damage, even the emergency side attach was there. Suggests that the release for the door was operated. How becomes the question. Vibration of the plastic cover fitted over the door on the inside cabin? Pressure cycles working the locks loose? Improper assembly? Missing safety wire?
The door simply must be recovered or everything is guess work.
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Message 2130904 - Posted: 7 Jan 2024, 8:11:55 UTC - in response to Message 2130901.  

A lot of information about the "lock" failure from the parts that are still on the aircraft, particularly if instead of "locks" Huckbolts were used. One source I heard stated that the locks used when these doors were not required were secured using Huckbolts, which are type of bolt that cannot be loosened using conventional spanners, and when tightened correctly they leave very distinctive marks on both the holes and the places where their heads and nuts sit. That said, seeing the aircraft part of the joint will only tell part of the story, the whole story does require the door to be found, and that its parts of the securing points are pretty much intact.
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Message 2130906 - Posted: 7 Jan 2024, 8:53:46 UTC

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Message 2130944 - Posted: 8 Jan 2024, 2:10:59 UTC

Not fun. Gave YouTube a look and saw a part of a cellphone video from the inside.
https://youtu.be/leNL5PRFESo?si=mdMeryWSJ36Bvg2G

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Message boards : Cafe SETI : Transportation Safety 3


 
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