Ephebiphobia

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Message 1714112 - Posted: 16 Aug 2015, 19:52:35 UTC

Its interesting, but how is this really that different from a general sense of fear from 'others'. Only in this case, the other is defined by the age group they belong to, rather than a cultural/ethnic/socio-economic group that is the basis for xenophobia in other cases. But the general principles underpinning such fears are the same, just look at how entire generations are given a generalized 'character' (Generation X, Millennials, etc) which are generally wholly inaccurate and in some cases even rather offensive.
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Message 1714178 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 1:20:05 UTC - in response to Message 1714082.  

@http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=77954&postid=1714064

I will take this one. I will try to find time to finish a post I started some time ago which I intended to use to start off exactly this thread. In the meantime - some wiki pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebiphobia

I will welcome all comments - and have unfiltered accordingly

There are always some who want to blame others for every misfortune that befalls them, be it immigrants, poor people, young people..etc

I am not sure that the post you linked to is an actual example of Ephebiphobia, or just an example of ignorance and narrow mindedness, although the two are often closely associated.
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Message 1714713 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 21:42:32 UTC - in response to Message 1714178.  

@http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=77954&postid=1714064

I will take this one. I will try to find time to finish a post I started some time ago which I intended to use to start off exactly this thread. In the meantime - some wiki pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephebiphobia

I will welcome all comments - and have unfiltered accordingly

There are always some who want to blame others for every misfortune that befalls them, be it immigrants, poor people, young people..etc

I am not sure that the post you linked to is an actual example of Ephebiphobia, or just an example of ignorance and narrow mindedness, although the two are often closely associated.

It might not be a perfect example, though there may be some substance to the charge; this (note the word "feral") might be a better one.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1715233 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 10:09:11 UTC - in response to Message 1714082.  

Sorry tami i looked at you link to a post but i didn't get who or what it has to do with the second link about this problem.

It sounds like a load of crock to me . It used to be called the generation gap so maybe it's just a new way to say that .

Young people can be very annoying say's 1 old grumpy man :)
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Message 1715365 - Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 16:50:00 UTC - in response to Message 1715242.  
Last modified: 19 Aug 2015, 16:50:22 UTC

Well, we wondered when you would turn up like a bad penny. So we have trolled back over 4 years of posts to find that have we? Well, I think I can probably surmise most peoples opinions.

"bad penny" I never left, just my rate of posting dropped somewhat.
"trolled back over" SETI@AHome has a "search forums" feature, I used that, I recalled your use of the word, didn't realize it was from 4 years ago, though I wonder whether there are examples similarly disdainful comments about the young in the intervening period.
"I can surmise" quite the comedian (well it made me laugh).

It might not be a perfect example, though there may be some substance to the charge; this (note the word "feral") might be a better one.

Feral

The Daily Mail is the standard by which we determine what is an acceptable opinion? Oswald Mosley would be pleased.

Young people can be very annoying say's 1 old grumpy man :)

No, that is not fair Glenn! Each Generation of 25 years difference grows up with different standards than the previous one. What the elder generation should do is to take the time to listen to the younger people, and try to understand what all the angst is about. Sometimes they have legitimate complaints, other times they are just going through the same phase in their lives that we all did at one point.

But they should not be ignored at our peril. By "our" I mean society in general not specifically my age group.

Will we ever see the likes again of a young 16 year old William Hague at the Tory Party's 1977 national conference? I sadly fear not.

Why???

Because we have our eyes closed?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1716364 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 6:52:49 UTC

Thanks Tami for clearing that up .

Us old coggers do worry about the young ones and what there future is going to be .

As one off the last Baby boomer gen , i feel i'm to blame for a lot off the things we see now .

I don't know about your country but we have a big problem with ICE using and young people here .

Maybe it's just the way it is . The way we learn , the hard way . Sometimes i think we are trying to live in Utopia without making the hard decisions to get there socially .
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Message 1716390 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 7:46:30 UTC
Last modified: 21 Aug 2015, 7:47:05 UTC

Some neuroscientists understand that claiming certain physical structures in the brain determine or ‘cause’ complex human cognitive or emotional judgment is ill-founded. Generalising about something called the ‘adolescent brain’ provides an example of a longstanding historical problem that involves the use of legitimate scientific techniques and perspectives to promote prejudice that too often leads to damaging consequences. Recall for example the use of such scientific discoveries about the ‘female brain’, the ‘negro brain’ or the ‘Jewish brain’ in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries that were used to justify appalling crimes against humanity

That bit sounds like the author not liking the outcome of scientific research with what he/she wants to be true.

If your brain hasn't finished developing yet, as is the case with every teenager, then yes, that can result in certain types of behavior with certain people. Teenagers are more prone to risky behavior because exactly the part of the brain that covers risk analysis and long term planning isn't finished growing yet when you are a teen. That makes it more difficult to accurately assess the outcome and consequences of your actions. Thats not to say that all teens will end up doing drugs, binge drinking and having unprotected sex all the time, the way risky behavior manifests differs from person to person.

Comparing it to things like ideas about the female brain or negro brain are false because neuroscience does not support the notion that human brains differ because of race or sex.


This can result in many young people confronting basic and persistent political, legal, social and economic inequalities, in finding themselves in asymmetrical power relationships, and in having many rights and access to valued resources denied as a matter of course.

If we are talking about a 12 year old, why the hell would we give them equal political, legal and social and economic rights? Is it discrimination? Technically yes, but with good reason. Political rights? The right to vote? You don't get that at age 12 or earlier because frankly you aren't old enough at that age to understand what the hell is going on. At that point, you can't make an informed enough decision. Legal rights? Well, its the same as with voting rights. You don't know well enough whats going on, let alone that you can accurately assess the long term effects and consequences which is especially important when making a legal decision. Thats why you have parents who are your legal guardian, to protect you from people who would try to take advantage from you.

Social equality? Actually I am not exactly sure how teens are socially unequal from other people, other than maybe people not always listening to them.

Economic equality. Ah well, this has two components. First, part of the inequality is the inability for a 12 year old to get a high paying job. But is that a bad thing? Well no, because a 12 year old should be going to school instead of trying to get a job. So yeah, they are economically unequal, but thats because they are not supposed to take part of the economy yet, they aren't ready. Thats not ageism, thats common sense. Once you finished highschool, it starts to change a little. Yes, it becomes possible to get a real job, though many teens may opt to get an advanced education first, which again means they can't really get a full time job, because they are going to college. The ones that do go for a fulltime job straight out of highschool, you can expect them to do the low skill low wage jobs. Their economic inequality doesn't stem from ageism but from the fact that they work a low wage job. What about the people that finish college? Eh, a lot of them aren't young people anymore by the time they are done, so ageism shouldn't apply to them anymore. But otherwise, well you start out your first job after college. You are inexperienced, the employer doesn't exactly know what type of person you are and how valuable you'll be to him/her. Why should he pay you the same amount as someone who has worked for him for 10 years?

This form of ageism is evident in the way employers legally discriminate against some people by paying them a ‘youth wage’, a practice which relies on exactly the same arguments used historically to deny women equal pay for equal work.

I can't talk about other countries, but I think in the Netherlands the youth wage ends at 22. Essentially its designed with the idea that people up till 22 aren't working full time. Its done to encourage people to go to school and go to college instead of opting to work full time. I can imagine that for a teen coming from a poor background, earning the full minimum wage at age 15 sounds like a better option than going to school. But in the long run, its better if that teen finishes highschool and maybe even some type of college before working full time.
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Message 1716584 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 18:47:36 UTC - in response to Message 1716571.  

...neuroscience does not support the notion that human brains differ because of race or sex.

Oh but they did. It was only after 1945 that scientific racism was denounced, but that didn't stop it being used to "justify" apartheid though.

Somewhat later than 1945 https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/william-shockley
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Message 1716616 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 20:13:44 UTC - in response to Message 1716592.  

The Mosquito was invented in Wales several years ago. Since then, Moving Sound Technologies has been marketing and selling the Mosquito throughout North America. Many cities, municipalities, school districts, and parks boards use the Mosquito to combat vandalism

The patented Mosquito is a small speaker that produces a high frequency sound much like the buzzing of the insect it's named after. This high frequency can be heard by young people 13 to 25 years old.


So are we being asked to believe that North America assumes that all young people aged 13-25 years old are basically vandals? Are there statistics that confirm that age group contributes significantly to the crime figures? If that is so then that is America's problem, why is this so concerning to a UK young person?

Is it being used here to unfairly, as you seem to suggest, "monitor" young people in the UK. or are you wanting to take up the cudgels for all people of your age group worldwide against anything that you see as restrictive?


It is being used in the UK as well.

" In the UK, over 3,000 have been sold, mainly for use outside shops and near transport hubs."

Like it or not it is a form of discrimination, it says if you are young don't loiter here as you are probably up to no good. Over 25 no problem loiter as long as you like as being an older person we don't have to worry about you!!
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Message 1716625 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 20:38:29 UTC

Not many women of 'mature years' have posted here, I note....nor have many women of any years|! I can hear bats using their 'sonar', so a 'Mosquito' would also affect me. I don't see anyone taking issue with that!
Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!
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Message 1716642 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 21:51:35 UTC

I will welcome all comments - and have unfiltered accordingly


Did A Young Person Say Something?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ


Young, Old or 'Tween-ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

...

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1716653 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 22:25:52 UTC
Last modified: 21 Aug 2015, 23:00:56 UTC

Today I met an Ephebiphobian person.
I have a dog named Tosca. She is my pride and joy.
The neighbourhood like her very much and know her by her name.
I usually let the kids in the neighbourhood play with Tosca.
But this early evening at eight pm on a friday a woman yelled at me to stop the noice when I and the kids played with Tosca.
She even asked me how old I am.
I said 75 and she said "stop then with your childish behaviour".

Geeez...
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Message 1716655 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 22:31:17 UTC - in response to Message 1716653.  

Jann your only as old as you act, keep it up and you will continue to do well.
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Message 1716666 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 22:53:13 UTC - in response to Message 1716655.  
Last modified: 21 Aug 2015, 22:57:19 UTC

Jann your only as old as you act, keep it up and you will continue to do well.

I dont care if some people think I'm childish or a grumpy old man.
For some reasons, I do not know why, I meet very young people today.
They even come to me and ask me to join them:)
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Message 1716819 - Posted: 22 Aug 2015, 4:52:43 UTC - in response to Message 1716579.  

The link was deep in the article I originally posted.

http://www.movingsoundtech.com/

It's not pleasant on the eardrum. The device. Not the article.

If you wish clarification on how or why "I could go on" that will take some time.


why simple to keep young holigans away . Spray painting tags every where , burnning public rubbish bins , breaking windows in shops , blah blah blah.

Sad it's come to that but that's life .

Not the Title of the thread
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Message 1716857 - Posted: 22 Aug 2015, 8:40:25 UTC - in response to Message 1716571.  

I got that impression too. But she is wary of embracing generalised conclusions - particularly when they have formed such a large part of categorising young people negatively for at least a century. By injecting a modicum of doubt, she, and the neuroscientists she refers to, might not be indulging in a bad approach, given what went before with regards the treatment of other groups following such "findings". By concluding that "certain physical structures in the brain determine or ‘cause’ complex human cognitive or emotional judgment" without considering the impact hormones might have, for example, is just one way in which such conclusions might well be "ill-judged".

Fair enough, that is a good point. Generalizing and stereotyping groups of people is never a good thing.

Risky behaviour is not the preserve of teenagers and young people. Nor is doing drugs, binge drinking and having unprotected sex - despite fully grown brain structures. That media coverage targets the small minority of teens that do - without counterbalancing their "shocking expose into youth culture" with a reality check every now and again - is wrong. Boredom, depression, low self-esteem, stress - all play their part, and they occur in every age group.

Sure, the behavior isn't solely found in teens. But that doesn't mean that teens do it just as much (or just as little) as everyone else. I do think that teens display certain types of behavior more often than other age groups, and as they grow older, most of them grow out of it.

Also, risky behavior is more than just doing drugs and drinking to much. The whole idea behind it is that teens have more difficulties with accurately assessing the long term consequences of their behavior, resulting in them doing things that bring short term rewards. That is way more than just drinking and partying all day, that is literally every decision that has long term drawbacks but short term rewards. Not doing your homework so you can play videogames is that.



Oh but they did. It was only after 1945 that scientific racism was denounced, but that didn't stop it being used to "justify" apartheid though. And then there is the pseudoscience of neurosexism that stereotypes both genders:

we thought for years that a very real structural difference — men’s greater brain size — was important to human intelligence, and it turned out to be of very little consequence. But that mistake kept women out of universities for years.

...although in very different ways.

Yeah, but then we are talking about pseudoscience or science that has been proven to be inaccurate or wrong decades ago.

I'm sorry. Any validity to your objections from this point onwards have become lost in your persistent focus on 12 year olds. Nowhere in the article I linked to did I see any reference to assigning adult rights (such as being able to vote, etc) to children. I understand if you were unable to find time to read the entire article so missed:

The classification ‘youth’ is currently used by many government agencies. Legally the term ‘child’ refers to persons under 18, although this varies depending on what is being discussed (e.g. the nature of crime, educational status etc). Also, according to the United Nations’ Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCROC) a child is a person up to the age of 18. Having said that, I note how all these categories (child, youth, young people, adolescence) are socially constructed and quite arbitrary, an observation that deserves critical analysis, but perhaps best left for a separate article.

I use the broader category of young people in this article to signal a recognition of the masculine and essentialist character of the term ‘youth’, and to signal a recognition of the diversity of people aged 12 to 25...

Yeah, but she argues that:

we seem simultaneously content to say that it is legitimate to continue to discriminate against young people, particularly those aged 12 to 25.


That makes it fair to apply her arguments to not just people who have turned 18, but also to people below that age. This is a problem on the authors side though, because although she decries the generalization of youth, by applying her arguments to people aged 12-25 she covers and incredible diverse group of people who in no way can be accurately compared to each other, let alone argued about in a consistent manner. A 12 year old differs vastly from an 18 year old and an 18 year old again differs vastly from a 25 year old.

Also, I did not argue exclusively about 12 year olds, I did so in the case of political and legal rights because those the rights that 12 year olds don't have, at least in the West. Why bother talking about that for people at the age of 18 when they do have those rights? As for economic rights, I covered both 12 year olds as well as older teens.

By all means - lets fixate on twelve year olds - the age around which puberty begins or has already manifested itself. The age of legal consent in some parts of the world - and being married off by guardians (although under Sharia law that can happen at age nine - I know - because I lost a friend in primary school due to that). The age at which all children have already become victims of "group stereotyping" by shopkeepers as "thieves and hooligans". And let's not forget mosquito devices - that are deliberately set to a frequency that can be heard by young people aged 13 to 25 years old - irrespective of whether they're loitering or legitimately waiting. I could go on? :)

Apart from getting married off at age 9 or 12, what exactly is the problem with a low age of consent? As long as it is coupled with a law that protects children from people who are much older than them, I think its a good thing.

I can't really say much about a Mosquito device, other than that I think they are stupid and should be made illegal.

Looking at the economic arguments you have put forward suggests that the experiences of being young in the jobs market in the Netherlands is not as fraught as it it is in the UK. I envy you :)

So it seems. Sadly I sometimes tend to forget that other countries are not the Netherlands and that some of our, in my opinion, common sense rules, laws and systems, are not present in other countries. But perhaps it does give you an indication of how it could work in the UK under more ideal circumstances.

The extract below (from here) might help explain things a little better:

Young people find it particularly difficult to compete with older and more experienced workers in in the UK, where they are more than three and a half times more likely to be unemployed than an ‘adult’ (i.e. someone aged over 25). This is a high ratio compared to other European countries, outstripping countries hit hard by the financial crisis such as Greece, Ireland, Spain and Portugal, where young people are about two and a half times more likely to be unemployed than adult workers, as well as the countries with low youth unemployment rates. In Germany, a young person is only one and a half times more likely to be unemployed than an adult worker. The position of young people, and particularly young men, relative to adult workers in the UK has also worsened in recent decades, despite the fact that young people are better qualified than ever before.


Thank you for taking the time to respond :) It is appreciated.

I see. I had no idea it was so difficult for people in the UK to get work experience after high school. That was both enlightening and worrying.
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Message 1716894 - Posted: 22 Aug 2015, 12:37:15 UTC - in response to Message 1716579.  
Last modified: 22 Aug 2015, 12:40:34 UTC

The link was deep in the article I originally posted.

http://www.movingsoundtech.com/

It's not pleasant on the eardrum. The device. Not the article.

If you wish clarification on how or why "I could go on" that will take some time.

The Mosquito was invented in Wales several years ago. Since then, Moving Sound Technologies has been marketing and selling the Mosquito throughout North America. Many cities, municipalities, school districts, and parks boards use the Mosquito to combat vandalism.

In our country it's probably classified as a weapon just as maze are.
Civilians are not allowed to use weapons.

I know that the US Army are developing sound weapons.
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Message 1716909 - Posted: 22 Aug 2015, 13:21:59 UTC - in response to Message 1716861.  

Did A Young Person Say Something?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Young, Old or 'Tween-ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Yes they did, and don't be so bloody rude you bad tempered old person. How you have never been banned from here is a total mystery to everyone. If you knew how much bad feeling there is against you, you would never dare to show your face around here again.

Was it only 3 days ago that you were agreeing with Evelyn Beatrice Hall's comments? Yes it was.

To be fair to those that attribute the comment to Voltaire, Hall had Voltaire say 'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it' in Helvetius, and later said that she was paraphrasing Voltaire from his Essay on Tolerance.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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Message 1716917 - Posted: 22 Aug 2015, 13:41:03 UTC - in response to Message 1716909.  
Last modified: 22 Aug 2015, 13:42:09 UTC

Did A Young Person Say Something?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Young, Old or 'Tween-ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Yes they did, and don't be so bloody rude you bad tempered old person. How you have never been banned from here is a total mystery to everyone. If you knew how much bad feeling there is against you, you would never dare to show your face around here again.

Was it only 3 days ago that you were agreeing with Evelyn Beatrice Hall's comments? Yes it was.

To be fair to those that attribute the comment to Voltaire, Hall had Voltaire say 'I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it' in Helvetius, and later said that she was paraphrasing Voltaire from his Essay on Tolerance.

LOL. It's a small world.
Helvetius. Actually meaning Swiss but anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Adrien_Helv%C3%A9tius
About tolerance. We have a swearword here "Helvete" meaning hell.
So "Far åt helvete" go to hell:)
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Message 1716953 - Posted: 22 Aug 2015, 15:30:13 UTC - in response to Message 1716924.  

Was it only 3 days ago that you were agreeing with Evelyn Beatrice Hall's comments? Yes it was.

You are 100% correct, yes it was. Point?

Cognitive dissonance?
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

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