Well, few words in VM approach defense.
First of all, computational overhead of such approach
is obvious.
But consider it from another point of view.
What if dihotomy is to be able to run in VM or
not run at all?

And now regarding "user labor". This part is simply wrong. There is no additional user labour at all (!).

And that's all (!). All other is testing not required to run project.

Yep, VM has overhead and VM consumes more PC resourses than similar native app provided such native app exists. So much in that single word in bold...

You guys have seized upon just the "labor" part of my concern, but you've missed the fact that I don't want to leave a vm up and running, nor do I want Linux on my machine.

... but you've missed the fact that I don't want to leave a vm up and running, nor do I want Linux on my machine.

Not even in a VM? I'm running a couple of these tasks on my Windows machines, and I have had no interaction whatsoever with the Linux installation provided by CERN.

But it's not a problem. Like every BOINC project, you (and everyone else) are free to join and run (or not join, and not run) any project using VM technology. The technology won't be suitable for every cruncher, and I personally find the "closed book" approach rather boring, but I have a couple of machines which have the capability and I'm willing to help with Ivan's challenge.

@ Raistmer - you might be interested in the thread I've just started on the CMS-dev message board:

Monitoring CMS job activity remotely

You're missing the part that I don't want Linux on my machine though.

You have a choice... And at least Linux does give you a choice[*]...

So got ask why you wish no Linux, and not even hidden inside a VM?


Happy cool crunchin'
Martin

*: Linux use in internet devices and embedded devices and supercomputers may be too widespread to easily avoid.

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

You guys have seized upon just the "labor" part of my concern, but you've missed the fact that I don't want to leave a vm up and running, nor do I want Linux on my machine.

Sorry, but this part too irrational to give rational answer. На вкус и цвет товарищей нет as we say.

@ Raistmer - you might be interested in the thread I've just started on the CMS-dev message board:

Monitoring CMS job activity remotely

Thanks. My situation is simple - I need only go to PC in another room, but on the same floor :)

I have been using UNIX in my professioal career, starting in 1981 on a ONYX computer and UNIX version 7. When retired, I bought a PC with WIN98SE and enjoyed the Microsoft Flight Simulator. Then I bought a Slackware Linux on CDs and installed it on the PC with dual boot. In 2008 I bought a SUN workstation, which is still working, and found Solaris in it. But there are no BOINC projects using Solaris, so I installed SuSE Linux. Last year I bought a HP minitower with Windows 8 installed on it and since then I have followed its evolution. It is now running vLHC@home, ATLAS@home, Einstein@home, SETI@home and now CMS-dev. Sorry that Microsoft has taken away the RDP I have used in 8.1. Such is life, you newer now. Maybe I shall install on its 64-bit A10-6700 CPU the next SuSE release, due in November. I am not a Linux fan,nor a Windows fan. But I regret not having been able to use Solaris, derived from the Berkeley BSD 4.2 I have used in my professional life.
Tullio

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Actually the point of using a VM to run CMS@Home is that it should be OS independant. 1 VM can be deployed on any system that is capable of running it and again in theory the results from the VM are OS independant. This should mean there is no validation issues between different flavours of OS.
I've been running CMS for months and if you have run T4T, vLHC etc before it is as start and forget as many other boinc projects.

I know how you feel but on the other foot. I always seem to be waiting for SETI apps, particularly the enhanced or improved ones, to find their way to binaries that will run on Linux :).

If you wanna say they are not you pretty humilidate our Linux porting team! Currently even GPU apps are ported.

My apologies if I offended you, Jason, or anyone else that works hard on porting applications to Linux. Everyone was very helpful in assisting me in installing applications on my Linux server and I am very grateful for that. I was only trying to point out Linux applications usually come along after the Window's versions. Again my apologies.

Just to say here that my "challenge" will be delayed by a day or two. There have been some issues that need resolving, and I also haven't had time to come up with a workflow that's to my liking. So keep an eye out for the kickoff announcement, hopefully later this week.

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I was only trying to point out Linux applications usually come along after the Window's versions.

Yep, it's true. And if you looking to Applications page for SETI project you would realise there is the sense in that. Most processing power for SETI@home comes from Windows hosts. Maybe Windows 10 will change that though, LoL :/

... but you've missed the fact that I don't want to leave a vm up and running, nor do I want Linux on my machine.

Not even in a VM? I'm running a couple of these tasks on my Windows machines, and I have had no interaction whatsoever with the Linux installation provided by CERN.

That's correct. Not even in a vm.

But it's not a problem. Like every BOINC project, you (and everyone else) are free to join and run (or not join, and not run) any project using VM technology.

Agreed. I only wanted to voice my opinion over the closed book approach, and express interest in helping out.

You guys have seized upon just the "labor" part of my concern, but you've missed the fact that I don't want to leave a vm up and running, nor do I want Linux on my machine.

Sorry, but this part too irrational to give rational answer. На вкус и цвет товарищей нет as we say.

Why irrational? Because you disagree? Do I not have a right to not want Linux on my machine in a vm?

It's not an irrational position anymore than not wanting to install any other piece of software. I can respect if you're OK with it, but don't label others as irrational because you disagree.

---

You guys have seized upon just the "labor" part of my concern, but you've missed the fact that I don't want to leave a vm up and running, nor do I want Linux on my machine.

Sorry, but this part too irrational to give rational answer. На вкус и цвет товарищей нет as we say.

Why irrational? Because you disagree? Do I not have a right to not want Linux on my machine in a vm?

It's not an irrational position anymore than not wanting to install any other piece of software. I can respect if you're OK with it, but don't label others as irrational because you disagree.

Cause rational suppose some reason while irrational doesn't. Dislike/like - both irrational. And there is nothing to agree or disagree with, it's personal preference. Just as I wrote. Statements I disagree with I commented in prev detailed post.

You guys have seized upon just the "labor" part of my concern, but you've missed the fact that I don't want to leave a vm up and running, nor do I want Linux on my machine.

Sorry, but this part too irrational to give rational answer. На вкус и цвет товарищей нет as we say.

Why irrational? Because you disagree? Do I not have a right to not want Linux on my machine in a vm?

It's not an irrational position anymore than not wanting to install any other piece of software. I can respect if you're OK with it, but don't label others as irrational because you disagree.

Cause rational suppose some reason while irrational doesn't. Dislike/like - both irrational. And there is nothing to agree or disagree with, it's personal preference. Just as I wrote. Statements I disagree with I commented in prev detailed post.

So you're stating I don't have a reason other than my dislike? Therefore you automatically assume an irrational reason? Did you even bother to ask what my reasons were before judging it irrational?

You're missing the part that I don't want Linux on my machine though.

You have a choice... And at least Linux does give you a choice[*]...

So got ask why you wish no Linux, and not even hidden inside a VM?

I do not want VMs run on my local machines. My VMs are run on my server through Hyper-V, and I do not allow my VMs access to the internet.

@Raistmer - see? That's how you ask for a reason and you get a rational answer.

...So got ask why you wish no Linux, and not even hidden inside a VM?

I do not want VMs run on my local machines. My VMs are run on my server through Hyper-V, and I do not allow my VMs access to the internet. ...

So is this a concern about...

Running VirtualBox?

Or Linux?

Or for anything that connects to the internet?


For the internet connection, how is the CERN VM 'app' any different to the internet access that all other Boinc apps make use of?

Can you firewall your VMs to allow only connections to CERN for example for peace of mind?...


Happy cool crunchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

...So got ask why you wish no Linux, and not even hidden inside a VM?

I do not want VMs run on my local machines. My VMs are run on my server through Hyper-V, and I do not allow my VMs access to the internet. ...

So is this a concern about...

Running VirtualBox?

Or Linux?

Yes.

Or for anything that connects to the internet?

Not so much 'anything', but most certainly for the stuff I run in VMs.

For the internet connection, how is the CERN VM 'app' any different to the internet access that all other Boinc apps make use of?

The CERN app isn't any different. None of my VMs crunch for BOINC.

Can you firewall your VMs to allow only connections to CERN for example for peace of mind?...

I could, but I'm not interested in making such a change as then I would have to allow crunching in a VM, which I do not allow and do not want.

... a concern about...

... Or Linux?

Yes.

Care to say why not Linux? (Or reserve that for another thread?!)


However, does that not then exclude all of CERN for you?


Happy cool crunchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... a concern about...

... Or Linux?

Yes.

Care to say why not Linux? (Or reserve that for another thread?!)

I prefer to centrally manage all of my machines through Active Directory / Group Policy. My home domain acts as my lab for my work as a place for me to test ideas, etc. I'm not 100% opposed to running Linux in a VM, but exclusively if I do it will not be a cruncher.

However, does that not then exclude all of CERN for you?

It does indeed, and that's why I chose to speak up. I've been reading about the science at CERN, and as a science fan I would love to help out, but it should be on my terms.

I get the arguments for it being easier to have a single VM with a single application from a support perspective (I make living off of support, after all), but I'm not fully sold on the idea that it provides a scientific benefit and acts as a control measure. After all, such an argument would heavily suggest that any project that chooses to offer a science application for various platforms or OSes are somehow not accounting for that control variable and therefore are doing less accurate science.

So back to: I would love to help out and I'm disappointed that it cannot be on my terms.

@Raistmer - see? That's how you ask for a reason and you get a rational answer.

1) Honestly, I don't really interesting in the reasons of your preferenses. You voiced some perceived issues with VM I answered on them.
2) So, do you really think that what you wrote is rational description of why you don't run VM on "local PC"? Better to re-read then. I see the same irrational based on flavor decision: "I don't want". OK, don't do if you don't want. But better to realise that it's more about you, not about BOINC and VM technology. Sorry, no more time waste on discussion for the sake of discussion from me.