Migration Period now?

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Profile janneseti
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Message 1724825 - Posted: 11 Sep 2015, 21:36:24 UTC - in response to Message 1724796.  
Last modified: 11 Sep 2015, 21:55:10 UTC

And Canada's too cold.


But it's a dry cold!


Really?
It used to be like that here as well in the winter but now...
It's wet cold and no snow anymore and very dark...

Let's say 4 millions scandinavian people emmigrates to Canada.
That will let almost all the refugees from the Middle East and Ukraine a possibility to move to Scandinavia.

Win Win situation:)

Oops Newsflash.
Börje Salming, 64, and Mats Sundin, 44, are both honored with respective statue outside of Toronto, home to the Air Canada Centre this weekend.
The news came as a surprise - even for Sundin "Sudden" himself.
- It was early, I'm so old ?! I thought I would have to wait longer, jokes the 44-year-old.

Mats Sundin and Börje Salming are two of the greatest players in Toronto Maple Leafs history.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dn.se%2Fsport%2Fishockey%2Fsundin-blir-staty-bredvid-salming-i-toronto%2F&edit-text=
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Message 1724847 - Posted: 11 Sep 2015, 22:53:38 UTC - in response to Message 1724825.  

People do not need to be treated this way.

Video shows refugees fed 'like animals in pen' in Hungary camp

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/11857695/Video-shows-refugees-fed-like-animals-in-pen-in-Hungary-camp.html

Austrian volunteer who filmed footage in Hungary's Roszke camp says treatment of refugees "like Guantanamo in Europe"
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Message 1724853 - Posted: 11 Sep 2015, 23:36:00 UTC - in response to Message 1724847.  
Last modified: 12 Sep 2015, 0:10:21 UTC

People do not need to be treated this way.

Video shows refugees fed 'like animals in pen' in Hungary camp

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/hungary/11857695/Video-shows-refugees-fed-like-animals-in-pen-in-Hungary-camp.html

Austrian volunteer who filmed footage in Hungary's Roszke camp says treatment of refugees "like Guantanamo in Europe"

Guantanamo is a prison!

Alexander Spritzendorfer (who filmed the footage) compared in an interview with the AFP news agency the treatment of the Guantanamo camp in Cuba. But he is impressed by the refugees calm.

- It was inhumane and it is very pleasing to the refugees that they were fighting over food, even though they so obviously were very hungry, he says.


Dont forget that Hungary stands out in comparison to how many refugees per hungarian capita seeking asylum!!!

EU asylum applications per 1,000 inhabitants 2014
8.4 Sweden
4.3 Hungary
3.3 Austria
3.2 Malta
...
0.5 UK
0.1 Finland
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Message 1724861 - Posted: 12 Sep 2015, 0:24:24 UTC - in response to Message 1724825.  

Let's say 4 millions scandinavian people emmigrates to Canada.


Really? Janne, no one would notice after the first week, really.


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Message 1724985 - Posted: 12 Sep 2015, 9:55:56 UTC - in response to Message 1724604.  

Most recently? OK, having no wish to spend the next few hours typing:

Ask the British.

Who as a Policy: Burned sleeping German babies in their cribs. And cheered in their theaters when The Burning was shown.

The British continued. Even after the War was Won.

This is what fear, terror, and don't forget vengeance, does.

What do you really believe the 'response' will be to thousands (or more) civilian deaths in The West?

You confuse total war, which is by now an outdated way of waging war, with a deliberate policy to intentionally murder babies out of fear or vengeance. The British (and Allied) policy during the war was to end the war. Everything they did was with that goal in mind. So no, they didn't bomb babies for the sake of bombing babies. They bombed cities because cities are aside from population centers also industrial centers, C3 hubs and cultural centers. Thats what they were after when they bombed those cities, with the idea that bombing what cities represent and what they provide, you essentially hit Germany's capacity to wage war. In reality they also bombed cities because frankly accuracy was so poor that basically cities were the only targets large enough that could reliably be hit. While accuracy improved greatly during the war, it wasn't until the late sixties-early seventies that we developed stuff like laser guided bombs and it became possible to do actual precision strikes.

Did it work, was the theory on which they based this policy accurate? No, not at all. But if you check your calendar and history books, you'll find that those bombings happened over 70 years ago and that since the end of the Second World War, both the total war approach as well as the indiscriminate bombing of cities has gone out of style. We don't do it anymore and we haven't done it since the Second World War. Also, I'd like to note that before the invention of the whole concept of total war, we didn't murder civilians on a large scale either. While civilians did of course die in wars, it was never really a deliberate policy to go after civilians on a large scale. So, what you claim as a pattern that repeats itself all throughout history, is actually more like a one time deviation from a pattern that actually suggests that we aren't total monsters even when we are afraid.

That said, with the advent of New Wars, civilians have once again become deliberate targets. But, and this is key, we aren't the ones targeting civilians, failed states under pressure from certain parts of the population and extremists/rebel groups such as IS or Boko Haram do. Can they, through their action, move us to deliberately start targeting civilians as well? Will they move us to bomb entire cities from the map? No, they can't and they won't. Even if they scare us, our military and our way of thinking about conflict is not aimed at creating as much devastation as possible on the largest scale possible (even though technically we have that option). At worst they can drag us into an unwinnable conflict somewhere in Syria or Iraq, but even then they can't actually defeat us through military means, they will simply win by sticking around longer than we do.

Remember, terrorism is the cowards way of waging war and only ever really an option for those who stand absolutely no chance to win anything.
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Message 1725004 - Posted: 12 Sep 2015, 11:29:19 UTC - in response to Message 1724985.  
Last modified: 12 Sep 2015, 11:31:29 UTC

It wasn't until the late sixties-early seventies that we developed stuff like laser guided bombs and it became possible to do actual precision strikes.

Hmmm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_from_US_drone_strikes

“Drone strikes have been sold to the American public on the claim that they’re ‘precise’. But they are only as precise as the intelligence that feeds them. There is nothing precise about intelligence that results in the deaths of 28 unknown people, including women and children, for every ‘bad guy’ the US goes after,” said Reprieve’s Jennifer Gibson, who spearheaded the group’s study.
41 men targeted but 1,147 people killed: US drone strikes – the facts on the ground
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147

I saw a docu about the drones and their operators.
In this case I think they operated the drones from Colorado.
Two have to quit their job because they were afraid of going mental.
They couldn't mix family life and their job.
Think about. First hug your children when leaving home to kill people and later come home for dinner!

The job looked like when you are playing Battlefield on your computer.
Same cheering when you hit a target.
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Message 1725005 - Posted: 12 Sep 2015, 11:40:24 UTC - in response to Message 1724861.  
Last modified: 12 Sep 2015, 11:44:50 UTC

Let's say 4 millions scandinavian people emmigrates to Canada.


Really? Janne, no one would notice after the first week, really.


I suppose so:)

But let's say Vova Putin decide to invade Scandinavia and perhaps even using nukes.
Will Canada and the US accept immigration then?
Or will we be told to clean up our mess ourself before?

For only 2 years ago I thought that what is happening in our time was impossible.
And here we are.
History repeating itself!
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Message 1725139 - Posted: 12 Sep 2015, 18:07:05 UTC - in response to Message 1725005.  

Canada pledges $100,000,000 for refugee support!


edit:
Plus programs from provincial governments as well....
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Message 1725389 - Posted: 13 Sep 2015, 14:40:30 UTC
Last modified: 13 Sep 2015, 14:40:51 UTC

Graphics shows that the Syrian refugee crisis is NOT in Europe! Most, 8 million inside & 4 million across boarder!!!!
http://time.com/4028055/syria-europe-refugees-graphic/?xid=tcoshare

Why Sweden Is the Exception on Refugees -- For Now
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/garan-rosenberg/sweden-refugee-asylum-_b_8119372.html
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Message 1725450 - Posted: 13 Sep 2015, 16:35:35 UTC

Migrant crisis: Germany to start temporary border controls.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34239674

Germany expects 800,000 migrants to arrive this year!!!
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Message 1725634 - Posted: 14 Sep 2015, 11:33:15 UTC

Drones are very accurate, they kill what they're pointed at with minimum collateral damage.

The person doing the pointing however, that's another matter.
Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.
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Message 1725639 - Posted: 14 Sep 2015, 12:07:05 UTC - in response to Message 1725634.  

Drones are very accurate, they kill what they're pointed at with minimum collateral damage.
The person doing the pointing however, that's another matter.

Yes.
Like for instance MH17 in Ukraine.
The BUK operators said probably, Oops.
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Message 1725654 - Posted: 14 Sep 2015, 13:45:44 UTC - in response to Message 1725650.  
Last modified: 14 Sep 2015, 13:46:46 UTC

When, not if, the West suffers thousands of civilian deaths:

'Total War' will be waged.

The great tragedy of Human History: Is the belief of Evil Leadership, that the their Moral Opponent will not resort to...

As we are witnessing presently, by The jihadists.

As a Retired University History Teacher. It would be fascinating to be living. let's say 1000 years from now.

Studying how the Jihadists Leadership. looking out from their 'Bunker' (a la Hitler) and surveying the Total Devastation of their Region, and Mass Killing of their People, and thinking:

Why didn't we study Machiavelli? Why did we believe The West was Completely Moral? Why didn't we understand, that a Frightened People, will always turn to Mass Murdering, Cold Blooded Generals, to save them?

We here in Sweden has a saying.
"Who remember the snow that fell last year"
Where have all the soldiers gone, long time passing?
Where have all the soldiers gone, long time ago?
Where have all the soldiers gone?
Gone to graveyards, everyone.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Pete Seeger.
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Message 1725663 - Posted: 14 Sep 2015, 14:00:24 UTC - in response to Message 1725650.  

When, not if, the West suffers thousands of civilian deaths:

'Total War' will be waged.

The great tragedy of Human History: Is the belief of Evil Leadership, that the their Moral Opponent will not resort to...

As we are witnessing presently, by The jihadists.

As a Retired University History Teacher. It would be fascinating to be living. let's say 1000 years from now.

Studying how the Jihadists Leadership. looking out from their 'Bunker' (a la Hitler) and surveying the Total Devastation of their Region, and Mass Killing of their People, and thinking:

Why didn't we study Machiavelli? Why did we believe The West was Completely Moral? Why didn't we understand, that a Frightened People, will always turn to Mass Murdering, Cold Blooded Generals, to save them?

Total war is a method of waging war, not some sort of reaction based on how much casualties you suffered. It means the total mobilization of all resources, including human, with the express aim of waging war. But for that to be effective, you basically need to fight an enemy that is also waging a total war against you. Otherwise, whats the point of mass producing tanks and airplanes in all your factories? If they have no enemy armored regiments to be used against, its just a complete and utter waste of money and resources. Whats the point of carpet bombing cities when 95% of the civilians in that city aren't part of the enemy's combat structure and if the Jihadist don't make use of the economic, industrial and cultural capacity of cities to further their ends? You'd just be bombing cities for the sake of bombing cities, it would have no other purpose and it would not get you any closer to actually defeating the enemy.

And how are we going to pay for a total war? Its possible if tanks aren't that much more complex than cars to operate, if planes don't take decades to develop and billions to produce, if supplies don't cost millions to produce and if converting most of the population from working in the service industry towards rebuilding the production industry and then creating weapons on a large scale again. To attempt to wage a total war today would bankrupt even a place like the United States. We were able to wage a total war back in the 40's because the circumstances for it were just right. The Western economies were still primarily industrial economies, we had a huge pool of unused labor (women) that could be mobilized without taking them from other economic sectors, meaning we could use the men to fight, the weapons we used were relatively simple and also required mass production in order to be effective, and the enemy we were fighting was basically doing the same thing, so waging a total war against them was both necessary and to some degree effective. Better yet, its as they say, you don't win a total war by outkilling the enemy, you win it by outproducing them.

Non of that applies to today, and the Jihadists like IS are fighting under a completely different paradigm. Excessive force is not a solution, not effective and not going to happen. Even if the people demand blood, and I'm quite sure thats not going to be the case, the people that run the military, the experts that know how to best use the tools at their disposal, they know that carpet bombing cities is a dumb idea. And will the politicians listen to them? Yeah they will, because they also know that carpet bombing cities is a dumb idea.

If you were a history teacher a thousand years from now, this conflict probably wouldn't even be one of any note. Just one of the many brushfire wars that followed after the collapse of the Soviet Union. This entire century, from 1900 to 2050 would probably be seen as one long period of conflict, much like how we view the 18th century of Europe today (loads of wars, non of them interesting from a military perspective, non of them standing out to anyone).
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Message 1725677 - Posted: 14 Sep 2015, 14:45:21 UTC - in response to Message 1725663.  
Last modified: 14 Sep 2015, 14:48:12 UTC

Total war is a failure. And the world has realised that.
There haven't been a Total War the last 70 years.
The military knows that.

We have now other problems.
Worldwide work claims more victims every year than war. An estimated 2.3 million workers die every year from occupational incidents and diseases, and the estimated costs of workplace incidents and illnesses total $2.8 trillion, he added.
http://www.safetyandhealthmagazine.com/articles/11059-work-kills-more-than-war-ilo-leader-says

@Clyde.
The world is now a far much safer place then 70 years ago.
Warfare is now not about killing people.
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Message 1725684 - Posted: 14 Sep 2015, 14:59:58 UTC - in response to Message 1725680.  
Last modified: 14 Sep 2015, 15:02:45 UTC

Total war is a failure. And the world has realised that.
There haven't been a Total War the last 70 years.
The military knows that.

70 years?

What exactly does this tiny little time frame, mean?

Nothing.

This is just a 'Passing Phase' of Human History. Probably will be known as Post WW II, Pax Americana.

Wonder how future Historians will refer to the era after WW III, WW IV, etc.

Einstein, anyone?

I know that 70 years is a short time.
But it's probably the first time that humankind have been without large wars and masskilling for 70 years.
Belive it or not. Humankind are improving:)

btw. Pax Americana is very much like Pax Romana.
"Dont mess with us or else..."
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Message 1725697 - Posted: 14 Sep 2015, 15:25:57 UTC - in response to Message 1725689.  
Last modified: 14 Sep 2015, 15:27:44 UTC

Pax Romana era collapsed. Resulting in...
Resulting in Justice and Laws perhaps?

Pax Americana era is collapsing. Resulting in exactly what happened towards the end Western Roman Empire:
I dont think there where any mass migration in the Roman Empire.

Whole populations are fleeing, or wish to flee, The Barbarians. They will risk their lives to enter Nations living under the Pax Americana Umbrella.
People from the Middle East dont flee to live under Pax Americana.
Most of them HAVE to leave their home countries and many comes to Germany and Sweden.
Pax Suecia it's called:)

History repeats...
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Message 1726258 - Posted: 16 Sep 2015, 17:03:16 UTC
Last modified: 16 Sep 2015, 17:23:12 UTC

Hungarian police fired on Wednesday afternoon tear gas and water cannons against the refugees at the Serbian-Hungarian border, according to Reuters. People responded by throwing stones at police.

UN and Council of Europe Secretary General addressed criticism of Hungary's new immigration laws and tear gas attacks against the refugees. At the same time demand that European leaders must work together better to solve the refugee crisis.

Hungary call the new laws for the start of "a new era" where refugees are not welcome. The country has introduced a state of emergency as a result of "mass immigration" in parts of the country. That means the military has been called in to help police in the handling of refugees and that roads can be closed off.

Bashar al-Assad has killed tens of thousands of civilians, but the Syrian president blames the refugee crisis cross safely on the EU and other Western countries. In a long interview with Russian media said the Syrian president also said he is prepared to resign if the people want.

- Today, Europe is trying to say that you feel guilty for not giving money or they do not let these people migrate legally, and that's why they crossed the ocean and drowned ... But, the victims who drown more valuable than those get their heads chopped off by terrorists in Syria? says al-Assad to, among others, the Russian propaganda channel Russia Today..


Czech parents have filed a lot of complaints about a children's program that allows immigration propaganda, writes Lidovky.
The program Planeta Yo (Yes-planet) tried to TV channel Decko to tell about the refugee crisis for children.
Some refugees from No-planet lands here. Life on the No planet is terribly from morning to evening, therefore escapes all away, and there is nothing to wonder at.
If we say no to refugees, we are just as evil as the slimy monsters from No-planet ... The strong should help the weak, explains program director Tomas Kyselka for a skeptical inhabitants of the Yes planet.

Czech government will not discuss the migration problem.
The program has caused a strong reaction in the community.
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Message 1727072 - Posted: 19 Sep 2015, 19:47:54 UTC

First nine (!) pages in Der Standard in Vienna this morning is about the refugee crisis.

Anna Maria Corazza Bildt in Lambedusa in the framework of the report on holistic approach to migration.
https://twitter.com/annamariacb
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Message 1727394 - Posted: 20 Sep 2015, 19:27:35 UTC

EU Directive 51/2001/EC :(
People-smugglers charge thousands of dollars to pack desperate migrants on rickety boats. This is because the main reason that migrants choose boats, EU Directive 51/2001/EC, is not up for amendment or, at this point, even for debate!
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Message boards : Politics : Migration Period now?


 
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