The Train Thread 2

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Message 1716451 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 13:42:44 UTC - in response to Message 1716444.  

I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it.

If the 8.45am was 10 minutes late at Waterloo station there would be hell to pay and letters to the London Times. Even a 30 minute delay with the Glasgow to London service gets front page news in the Evening Standard. Are Americans THAT laid back, or just gave up years ago?

Now I could be wrong on this, but here goes nothing:
Americas freight railroads usually have priority over an Amtrak Train, since Amtrak for the most part runs on freight railroads tracks as a guest.

David could say something more on this and when He has the time, I think He might.
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Message 1716488 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 15:09:04 UTC - in response to Message 1716451.  

I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it.

If the 8.45am was 10 minutes late at Waterloo station there would be hell to pay and letters to the London Times. Even a 30 minute delay with the Glasgow to London service gets front page news in the Evening Standard. Are Americans THAT laid back, or just gave up years ago?

In the places in the US where service similar to that in the UK is operated, it has similar tolerance of tardiness. It is only the long distance trains that ever get delayed by huge amounts, and not as often as you might think; people think it happens a lot because they only hear about it when it does, not when it doesn't. When it does happen, Amtrak compensates the passengers in various ways: partial or full refund of fare paid, hotel if they missed a connection to another train, fly them to destination if they want.


Now I could be wrong on this, but here goes nothing:
Americas freight railroads usually have priority over an Amtrak Train, since Amtrak for the most part runs on freight railroads tracks as a guest.

David could say something more on this and when He has the time, I think He might.

By law, Amtrak has priority. Practice is another thing and varies by railroad and division of the railroad. CSX is notorious for delaying Amtrak for its hotshot freights, even when the freight is still hundreds of miles away. Sometimes the solution to this is to put public money into extra track capacity, but even liberal governments are reluctant to do so for a single train each way per day.

America's railroads were built for both passenger and freight service, but most of the passenger infrastructure has dwindled away since WWII. For example, the Chicago & Western Indiana, a terminal road mostly within the city of Chicago, had six main tracks approaching downtown, one for passenger and two for freight in each direction (or was it two and one?). That part of the line now belongs to Metra, part of the Southwest Service line. Once trains leave Amtrak control at 21st St., it's a single track to about 39th St. (8 blocks per mile). After negotiating the connection between NS's line to Union Station and the leads to Ashland Ave. Yard, it's double track to 74th St. (at which it turns west into the mess I told you about a few days ago). And that NS line to Union Station? It used to be the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad (one of two routes they had into town), with four tracks right next to C&WI's six. It's now three tracks (numbered 1, 2, and 4, although 4 is where 3 was when there were four of them). The point I was making before I started lecturing is that the railroads today are mostly optimized for freight, and passenger usually doesn't fit into the scheme very well.

There is also a very old saying in railroading: late trains get later. The reason for this, at least nowadays, is that the railroad schedules its freight trains so that Amtrak fits into a "slot" between them. If Amtrak misses its slot, they don't hold the freights, and then Amtrak has to wend its way through them whenever possible.
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Message 1716490 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 15:11:37 UTC

Yesterday's 6 had a UP engine leading and PV Sierra Hotel on the rear. Someone got it on video at Agency, Iowa, running several hours late.
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Message 1716498 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 15:24:15 UTC
Last modified: 21 Aug 2015, 15:27:45 UTC

I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it.


If you journey takes a hour or two then delays of day would of course be silly.

No one says they accept it. Far from it there are lots of complaints and calls for Amtrak to be sold off/shut down.

The trains you are talking about are long distance sleepers, all the local trains I watch arrive fairly on time or usually early, by "local" I mean 100-300 miles and 2-4 hours journey time..

Please imagine if you will travelling from Aberdeen to Penzance a journey of some 697 miles taking 13 hrs 12 mins, 4 times one after the other, then you will have an idea of the distances they cover, also remember a lot of the country is open and wild, there are landslides, floods and due to the "open nature of the railways, accidents. Also while in fact Amtrak are "supposed" to have priority over freight, that apparently sometimes does not happen.

I have have been watching the Chesterton camera for either the 29 or 49 and seen several long slow freights pass when according to Amtraks own map their train is stationary a few miles back.

Remember in the UK the track is all owned by a third party that has nothing to gain by slowing anything down as they will get fined anyway. Also most of the UK is minimum double track, not so in the US.

I will admit there is of course a lot wrong with long distance passenger rail in the US, but to compare with the UK you should really be looking at the more local services funded by city and state they compare more with our system.

We really don't have anything in the UK that compares with the long distance sleeper services, that run everyday of they year (Christmas, New Year and all Sundays). The California Zephyr takes 51 hours (on a good day).

So arriving an hour late on the Penzance train would be the same as 4 hour late on the Cailfornia Zephyr.

Currently the California Zephyr that Departed Emeryville (SF)Yesterday at 9:10am PDT(5:10pm BST) is on time and it is due into Chicago tomorrow at 2:50 PM CT. The one that left Emeryville on Wednesday is unfortunately 1 hour and 18 mins late and is due in Chicago at 3:04PM CT (9:04pm BST)

So today both are doing fairly well. As usual when everything is working OK you don't hear much, it is only when it goes wrong and for trains that travel father than some airlines those delays can be pretty spectacular

I see David has answered whilst I have been writing an has helped to explain things.

I will post as well so as to hopefully put in into the perspective of the UK
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Message 1716499 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 15:25:16 UTC - in response to Message 1715698.  

Speaking of IRM, it has been revealed this week that we will be getting something from rather out of our geographic area (hardly the only such item in our collection). It's an electric locomotive originally built for the Virginian Railway, which merged with the Norfolk and Western. I believe they sold it to the New Haven, which became Penn Central and then Conrail. It's been just sitting for many years (CR quit using electrics in about 1980) and now it's on its way to the museum in Altoona, PA, where it will get a cosmetic restoration before it comes to us. There is talk that we may try to make it operate, which would surprise me somewhat.

More info on this:

8/2015 - Coming to the Juniata Shops for restoration!
Conrail 4601 is one of two E33 electrics remaining of the 12 built. All were built
for the Virginian as GE class EL-C. They found their way onto the New Haven then
Conrail. 4601 has been in storage at Old Saybrook, CT since at least 2003. It's
going to the Illinois Railway Museum.
The other EL-C/E33 is on display at the Virginia Museum of Transportation in
Virginian colors.


AltoonaWorks - Juniata Insourcing | Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/altoonaworks/photos/a.10150327322115637.570694.222359370636/10156041257315637/?type=1&theater
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Message 1716501 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 15:27:52 UTC

Similar story in Canada. The railways were built for freight and passengers, but post war the passenger service dwindled. Long distance train passengers are just about all tourists these days, they don't mind delays as much. If you mess with urban transit train times, on the other hand, you can expect letters to the editor, nasty words in Parliment, etc.

You have to remember Chris that from our point of view just about all the UK passenger rail services would be considered urban transit.

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Message 1716506 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 15:37:45 UTC - in response to Message 1716498.  

The California Zephyr takes 51 hours (on a good day).


Anybody that signs up for a 51 hour ride, when the air trip would be 6 or 7 hours at roughly the same price, is not worried about arrivaling on time.

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Message 1716509 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 15:38:55 UTC - in response to Message 1716465.  
Last modified: 21 Aug 2015, 15:40:05 UTC

Americas freight railroads usually have priority over an Amtrak Train, since Amtrak for the most part runs on freight railroads tracks as a guest.

You may be right. I believe that the majority of Americas railways were built for freight not passengers, unlike the opposite in the UK. Over here during the last century the London Express had 100% clearance. If you held that up for any reason it was a sack-able offence.

Hey how about this then?

Gold train

Well if it exists, and it's not impossible, the Nazis stole a lot of stuff and killed a lot of people to get that, if this is true, then this is one train that didn't get a 'neutral' swiss bank passport...

The Nazis were so far ahead of US in some areas, so almost anything could be in a tunnel.
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Message 1716521 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 16:13:51 UTC - in response to Message 1716444.  

I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it.

If the 8.45am was 10 minutes late at Waterloo station there would be hell to pay and letters to the London Times. Even a 30 minute delay with the Glasgow to London service gets front page news in the Evening Standard. Are Americans THAT laid back, or just gave up years ago?

America's urban trains may have better on time performance than the UK system. You don't hear about that because you don't consider them trains. In WWII America built airplanes. They didn't stop when the war was over and they had lots of land to build lots of airports. Who is going to take a multi-day train ride those 3000+ miles when they can hop a plane and be done in time to see eat dinner and catch a show? Oh as to distance, that would be you getting on a train in London and arriving in New York.

Oh as to accept it, you have noticed how many take the train and how many take the plane? Maybe the market forces are at work?
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Message 1716531 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 16:27:13 UTC - in response to Message 1716521.  

I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it.

If the 8.45am was 10 minutes late at Waterloo station there would be hell to pay and letters to the London Times. Even a 30 minute delay with the Glasgow to London service gets front page news in the Evening Standard. Are Americans THAT laid back, or just gave up years ago?

America's urban trains may have better on time performance than the UK system. You don't hear about that because you don't consider them trains. In WWII America built airplanes. They didn't stop when the war was over and they had lots of land to build lots of airports. Who is going to take a multi-day train ride those 3000+ miles when they can hop a plane and be done in time to see eat dinner and catch a show? Oh as to distance, that would be you getting on a train in London and arriving in New York.

Oh as to accept it, you have noticed how many take the train and how many take the plane? Maybe the market forces are at work?

The problem is that people are also taking planes for distances where they should be taking trains. That's not just the market, it's also government policy over the last 60+ years favoring air and highway over rail. The government policy, in turn, is influenced by the lobbies for air and highway being fueled by big business, whereas the big business of railroads mostly wants to stay out of the passenger market, unless they see an opportunity to get public funding for major infrastructure work on their property.
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Message 1716545 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 17:22:01 UTC - in response to Message 1716543.  
Last modified: 21 Aug 2015, 17:23:23 UTC

Well borrowing a line from"The go between" by LP Hartley

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there"

America really is a foreign country and has been shown in many threads not least this one "they really do do things differently there"

(Of course it works both ways)
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Message 1716556 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 17:54:05 UTC

The past is the rock we all stand on!



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Message 1716599 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 19:33:44 UTC

Quickly back to trains

To try and demonstrate differences and find and excuse to post these type of pictures :-)

Here are a few. well slightly scenic pics;









There is no way I could ever see as much of the US as I would like except by train, perhaps people can begin to understand my fascination with these long distance travelling hotels.

I just hope I have enough time left to one day travel through scenery like that on a train.
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Message 1716614 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 20:00:28 UTC - in response to Message 1716599.  

Nice pics Bernie, I've only been to a few states, WA, OR, AZ, NV and My home state of CA by car with My parents when I was younger, there was also GA(Atlanta airport) and SC(Ft Jackson), but that was different and I didn't see much if anything there, though I did note the differences between CA and either SC or GA, lots of trees, more than I'd ever seen in CA, lots more.
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Message 1716630 - Posted: 21 Aug 2015, 21:00:50 UTC

A reason Amtrak is running late
http://abc7news.com/news/2-hurt-after-amtrak-train-hits-vehicle-in-orwood/949868/
ORWOOD, Calif. (KGO) --
Two people were seriously injured when an Amtrak train struck a pickup truck outside of Brentwood and knocked it into the water Wednesday afternoon, according to Amtrak and fire officials.

Fire officials responded around 2:45 p.m. to a report of a collision between a train and vehicle near Orwood Road, according to the East Contra Costa Fire Protection District.

The sole occupant of the pickup truck was ejected from the truck into a nearby body of water, fire officials said.

The tracks pass over the Middle River near Orwood and Fallman roads, according to maps of the area.

The truck then landed on a 20-year-old woman who was on a raft in the water, according to fire officials.

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Message 1716967 - Posted: 22 Aug 2015, 16:59:50 UTC
Last modified: 22 Aug 2015, 17:01:12 UTC

Ever had one of those days?

To get my camera pictures of Amtrak services I rely on the Amtrak "track a train" app on their website, while not 100% accurate by looking at times and places I have a good idea when a train will pass Chesterton or Chicago.

So today I look at the 29 and 49 and see that not only aren't they where they say they are but the times all look wrong.

Looking at a few other trains it is obvious that Amtrak are having problems with the "track a train" function.

So I that means with actually no idea when the 29 and 49 will pass the camera I have to have the Chesterton camera on and just record every time the gates go down.

Fine get the 29 OK, then of course the Chesterton camera fails completely both east and west! Fardles!!

Obviously not a day for train watching. :-(
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Message 1716970 - Posted: 22 Aug 2015, 17:18:07 UTC - in response to Message 1716599.  
Last modified: 22 Aug 2015, 17:21:21 UTC

There is no way I could ever see as much of the US as I would like except by train, perhaps people can begin to understand my fascination with these long distance travelling hotels.

I just hope I have enough time left to one day travel through scenery like that on a train.



I'd love to take a real excursion train. The only thing I have in my neck of the woods is a dinner train that goes through some scruffy forest, and then backs up. :~( Here's someone's review: http://www.louisvillefamilyfun.net/2012/12/review-of-my-old-kentucky-dinner-train.html
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Message 1717184 - Posted: 23 Aug 2015, 3:50:34 UTC - in response to Message 1716967.  

So I that means with actually no idea when the 29 and 49 will pass the camera I have to have the Chesterton camera on and just record every time the gates go down.

Fine get the 29 OK, then of course the Chesterton camera fails completely both east and west! Fardles!!

Obviously not a day for train watching. :-(

At least you got to see the 29. Not a complete wash.
Hope the cameras come back up quick.
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Message 1717187 - Posted: 23 Aug 2015, 3:56:40 UTC - in response to Message 1716970.  

There is no way I could ever see as much of the US as I would like except by train, perhaps people can begin to understand my fascination with these long distance travelling hotels.

I just hope I have enough time left to one day travel through scenery like that on a train.



I'd love to take a real excursion train. The only thing I have in my neck of the woods is a dinner train that goes through some scruffy forest, and then backs up. :~( Here's someone's review: http://www.louisvillefamilyfun.net/2012/12/review-of-my-old-kentucky-dinner-train.html

Sometime in the next couple summers, I'm going to retrace the trip we took in December 1963. California Zephyr to Chicago, then up to Milwaukee to see some relatives. Back down to Chicago, then the Santa Fe Chief to LA, then back home on the San Joaquin Daylight.

Also want to take the Coast Daylight from San Diego all the way to Seattle (never been there, they tell me it's nice).
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Message 1717233 - Posted: 23 Aug 2015, 7:43:31 UTC - in response to Message 1717187.  

There is no way I could ever see as much of the US as I would like except by train, perhaps people can begin to understand my fascination with these long distance travelling hotels.

I just hope I have enough time left to one day travel through scenery like that on a train.



I'd love to take a real excursion train. The only thing I have in my neck of the woods is a dinner train that goes through some scruffy forest, and then backs up. :~( Here's someone's review: http://www.louisvillefamilyfun.net/2012/12/review-of-my-old-kentucky-dinner-train.html

Sometime in the next couple summers, I'm going to retrace the trip we took in December 1963. California Zephyr to Chicago, then up to Milwaukee to see some relatives. Back down to Chicago, then the Santa Fe Chief to LA, then back home on the San Joaquin Daylight.

Also want to take the Coast Daylight from San Diego all the way to Seattle (never been there, they tell me it's nice).


Now that is the sort of trip I would like to take. For me it would be Lakeshore NY to Chicago, then the Zephyr to SF. Then the decision whether to go north or south from SF!! I think I would probably take the Coast Starlight to Seattle, then the Empire Builder back to Chicago. I think that would be my "dream trip".
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Message boards : Cafe SETI : The Train Thread 2


 
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