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The Train Thread 2
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zoom3+1=4 Send message Joined: 30 Nov 03 Posts: 65709 Credit: 55,293,173 RAC: 49 |
I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it. Now I could be wrong on this, but here goes nothing: Americas freight railroads usually have priority over an Amtrak Train, since Amtrak for the most part runs on freight railroads tracks as a guest. David could say something more on this and when He has the time, I think He might. The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's |
David S Send message Joined: 4 Oct 99 Posts: 18352 Credit: 27,761,924 RAC: 12 |
I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it. In the places in the US where service similar to that in the UK is operated, it has similar tolerance of tardiness. It is only the long distance trains that ever get delayed by huge amounts, and not as often as you might think; people think it happens a lot because they only hear about it when it does, not when it doesn't. When it does happen, Amtrak compensates the passengers in various ways: partial or full refund of fare paid, hotel if they missed a connection to another train, fly them to destination if they want. Now I could be wrong on this, but here goes nothing: By law, Amtrak has priority. Practice is another thing and varies by railroad and division of the railroad. CSX is notorious for delaying Amtrak for its hotshot freights, even when the freight is still hundreds of miles away. Sometimes the solution to this is to put public money into extra track capacity, but even liberal governments are reluctant to do so for a single train each way per day. America's railroads were built for both passenger and freight service, but most of the passenger infrastructure has dwindled away since WWII. For example, the Chicago & Western Indiana, a terminal road mostly within the city of Chicago, had six main tracks approaching downtown, one for passenger and two for freight in each direction (or was it two and one?). That part of the line now belongs to Metra, part of the Southwest Service line. Once trains leave Amtrak control at 21st St., it's a single track to about 39th St. (8 blocks per mile). After negotiating the connection between NS's line to Union Station and the leads to Ashland Ave. Yard, it's double track to 74th St. (at which it turns west into the mess I told you about a few days ago). And that NS line to Union Station? It used to be the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad (one of two routes they had into town), with four tracks right next to C&WI's six. It's now three tracks (numbered 1, 2, and 4, although 4 is where 3 was when there were four of them). The point I was making before I started lecturing is that the railroads today are mostly optimized for freight, and passenger usually doesn't fit into the scheme very well. There is also a very old saying in railroading: late trains get later. The reason for this, at least nowadays, is that the railroad schedules its freight trains so that Amtrak fits into a "slot" between them. If Amtrak misses its slot, they don't hold the freights, and then Amtrak has to wend its way through them whenever possible. David Sitting on my butt while others boldly go, Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri. |
David S Send message Joined: 4 Oct 99 Posts: 18352 Credit: 27,761,924 RAC: 12 |
Yesterday's 6 had a UP engine leading and PV Sierra Hotel on the rear. Someone got it on video at Agency, Iowa, running several hours late. David Sitting on my butt while others boldly go, Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri. |
Bernie Vine Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 9954 Credit: 103,452,613 RAC: 328 |
I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it. If you journey takes a hour or two then delays of day would of course be silly. No one says they accept it. Far from it there are lots of complaints and calls for Amtrak to be sold off/shut down. The trains you are talking about are long distance sleepers, all the local trains I watch arrive fairly on time or usually early, by "local" I mean 100-300 miles and 2-4 hours journey time.. Please imagine if you will travelling from Aberdeen to Penzance a journey of some 697 miles taking 13 hrs 12 mins, 4 times one after the other, then you will have an idea of the distances they cover, also remember a lot of the country is open and wild, there are landslides, floods and due to the "open nature of the railways, accidents. Also while in fact Amtrak are "supposed" to have priority over freight, that apparently sometimes does not happen. I have have been watching the Chesterton camera for either the 29 or 49 and seen several long slow freights pass when according to Amtraks own map their train is stationary a few miles back. Remember in the UK the track is all owned by a third party that has nothing to gain by slowing anything down as they will get fined anyway. Also most of the UK is minimum double track, not so in the US. I will admit there is of course a lot wrong with long distance passenger rail in the US, but to compare with the UK you should really be looking at the more local services funded by city and state they compare more with our system. We really don't have anything in the UK that compares with the long distance sleeper services, that run everyday of they year (Christmas, New Year and all Sundays). The California Zephyr takes 51 hours (on a good day). So arriving an hour late on the Penzance train would be the same as 4 hour late on the Cailfornia Zephyr. Currently the California Zephyr that Departed Emeryville (SF)Yesterday at 9:10am PDT(5:10pm BST) is on time and it is due into Chicago tomorrow at 2:50 PM CT. The one that left Emeryville on Wednesday is unfortunately 1 hour and 18 mins late and is due in Chicago at 3:04PM CT (9:04pm BST) So today both are doing fairly well. As usual when everything is working OK you don't hear much, it is only when it goes wrong and for trains that travel father than some airlines those delays can be pretty spectacular I see David has answered whilst I have been writing an has helped to explain things. I will post as well so as to hopefully put in into the perspective of the UK |
David S Send message Joined: 4 Oct 99 Posts: 18352 Credit: 27,761,924 RAC: 12 |
Speaking of IRM, it has been revealed this week that we will be getting something from rather out of our geographic area (hardly the only such item in our collection). It's an electric locomotive originally built for the Virginian Railway, which merged with the Norfolk and Western. I believe they sold it to the New Haven, which became Penn Central and then Conrail. It's been just sitting for many years (CR quit using electrics in about 1980) and now it's on its way to the museum in Altoona, PA, where it will get a cosmetic restoration before it comes to us. There is talk that we may try to make it operate, which would surprise me somewhat. More info on this: 8/2015 - Coming to the Juniata Shops for restoration! Conrail 4601 is one of two E33 electrics remaining of the 12 built. All were built for the Virginian as GE class EL-C. They found their way onto the New Haven then Conrail. 4601 has been in storage at Old Saybrook, CT since at least 2003. It's going to the Illinois Railway Museum. The other EL-C/E33 is on display at the Virginia Museum of Transportation in Virginian colors. AltoonaWorks - Juniata Insourcing | Facebook https://www.facebook.com/altoonaworks/photos/a.10150327322115637.570694.222359370636/10156041257315637/?type=1&theater David Sitting on my butt while others boldly go, Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri. |
Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 3868 Credit: 2,697,267 RAC: 0 |
Similar story in Canada. The railways were built for freight and passengers, but post war the passenger service dwindled. Long distance train passengers are just about all tourists these days, they don't mind delays as much. If you mess with urban transit train times, on the other hand, you can expect letters to the editor, nasty words in Parliment, etc. You have to remember Chris that from our point of view just about all the UK passenger rail services would be considered urban transit. |
Bill Walker Send message Joined: 4 Sep 99 Posts: 3868 Credit: 2,697,267 RAC: 0 |
The California Zephyr takes 51 hours (on a good day). Anybody that signs up for a 51 hour ride, when the air trip would be 6 or 7 hours at roughly the same price, is not worried about arrivaling on time. |
zoom3+1=4 Send message Joined: 30 Nov 03 Posts: 65709 Credit: 55,293,173 RAC: 49 |
Americas freight railroads usually have priority over an Amtrak Train, since Amtrak for the most part runs on freight railroads tracks as a guest. Well if it exists, and it's not impossible, the Nazis stole a lot of stuff and killed a lot of people to get that, if this is true, then this is one train that didn't get a 'neutral' swiss bank passport... The Nazis were so far ahead of US in some areas, so almost anything could be in a tunnel. The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it. America's urban trains may have better on time performance than the UK system. You don't hear about that because you don't consider them trains. In WWII America built airplanes. They didn't stop when the war was over and they had lots of land to build lots of airports. Who is going to take a multi-day train ride those 3000+ miles when they can hop a plane and be done in time to see eat dinner and catch a show? Oh as to distance, that would be you getting on a train in London and arriving in New York. Oh as to accept it, you have noticed how many take the train and how many take the plane? Maybe the market forces are at work? |
David S Send message Joined: 4 Oct 99 Posts: 18352 Credit: 27,761,924 RAC: 12 |
I know that America is 3000 miles wide, but I just find it ironic that trains can arrive hours or even days late, and people just accept it. The problem is that people are also taking planes for distances where they should be taking trains. That's not just the market, it's also government policy over the last 60+ years favoring air and highway over rail. The government policy, in turn, is influenced by the lobbies for air and highway being fueled by big business, whereas the big business of railroads mostly wants to stay out of the passenger market, unless they see an opportunity to get public funding for major infrastructure work on their property. David Sitting on my butt while others boldly go, Waiting for a message from a small furry creature from Alpha Centauri. |
Bernie Vine Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 9954 Credit: 103,452,613 RAC: 328 |
Well borrowing a line from"The go between" by LP Hartley "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there" America really is a foreign country and has been shown in many threads not least this one "they really do do things differently there" (Of course it works both ways) |
celttooth Send message Joined: 21 Nov 99 Posts: 26503 Credit: 28,583,098 RAC: 0 |
The past is the rock we all stand on! |
Bernie Vine Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 9954 Credit: 103,452,613 RAC: 328 |
Quickly back to trains To try and demonstrate differences and find and excuse to post these type of pictures :-) Here are a few. well slightly scenic pics; There is no way I could ever see as much of the US as I would like except by train, perhaps people can begin to understand my fascination with these long distance travelling hotels. I just hope I have enough time left to one day travel through scenery like that on a train. |
zoom3+1=4 Send message Joined: 30 Nov 03 Posts: 65709 Credit: 55,293,173 RAC: 49 |
Nice pics Bernie, I've only been to a few states, WA, OR, AZ, NV and My home state of CA by car with My parents when I was younger, there was also GA(Atlanta airport) and SC(Ft Jackson), but that was different and I didn't see much if anything there, though I did note the differences between CA and either SC or GA, lots of trees, more than I'd ever seen in CA, lots more. The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
A reason Amtrak is running late http://abc7news.com/news/2-hurt-after-amtrak-train-hits-vehicle-in-orwood/949868/ ORWOOD, Calif. (KGO) -- |
Bernie Vine Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 9954 Credit: 103,452,613 RAC: 328 |
Ever had one of those days? To get my camera pictures of Amtrak services I rely on the Amtrak "track a train" app on their website, while not 100% accurate by looking at times and places I have a good idea when a train will pass Chesterton or Chicago. So today I look at the 29 and 49 and see that not only aren't they where they say they are but the times all look wrong. Looking at a few other trains it is obvious that Amtrak are having problems with the "track a train" function. So I that means with actually no idea when the 29 and 49 will pass the camera I have to have the Chesterton camera on and just record every time the gates go down. Fine get the 29 OK, then of course the Chesterton camera fails completely both east and west! Fardles!! Obviously not a day for train watching. :-( |
Gordon Lowe Send message Joined: 5 Nov 00 Posts: 12094 Credit: 6,317,865 RAC: 0 |
There is no way I could ever see as much of the US as I would like except by train, perhaps people can begin to understand my fascination with these long distance travelling hotels. I'd love to take a real excursion train. The only thing I have in my neck of the woods is a dinner train that goes through some scruffy forest, and then backs up. :~( Here's someone's review: http://www.louisvillefamilyfun.net/2012/12/review-of-my-old-kentucky-dinner-train.html The mind is a weird and mysterious place |
Donald L. Johnson Send message Joined: 5 Aug 02 Posts: 8240 Credit: 14,654,533 RAC: 20 |
So I that means with actually no idea when the 29 and 49 will pass the camera I have to have the Chesterton camera on and just record every time the gates go down. At least you got to see the 29. Not a complete wash. Hope the cameras come back up quick. Donald Infernal Optimist / Submariner, retired |
Donald L. Johnson Send message Joined: 5 Aug 02 Posts: 8240 Credit: 14,654,533 RAC: 20 |
There is no way I could ever see as much of the US as I would like except by train, perhaps people can begin to understand my fascination with these long distance travelling hotels. Sometime in the next couple summers, I'm going to retrace the trip we took in December 1963. California Zephyr to Chicago, then up to Milwaukee to see some relatives. Back down to Chicago, then the Santa Fe Chief to LA, then back home on the San Joaquin Daylight. Also want to take the Coast Daylight from San Diego all the way to Seattle (never been there, they tell me it's nice). Donald Infernal Optimist / Submariner, retired |
Bernie Vine Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 9954 Credit: 103,452,613 RAC: 328 |
There is no way I could ever see as much of the US as I would like except by train, perhaps people can begin to understand my fascination with these long distance travelling hotels. Now that is the sort of trip I would like to take. For me it would be Lakeshore NY to Chicago, then the Zephyr to SF. Then the decision whether to go north or south from SF!! I think I would probably take the Coast Starlight to Seattle, then the Empire Builder back to Chicago. I think that would be my "dream trip". |
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