Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking... (#3)

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Message 1675103 - Posted: 8 May 2015, 9:23:10 UTC - in response to Message 1674768.  

I agree. I think in this instance religion is definitely being used as an excuse to justify psychopathic behaviour, as it has been on too many occasions.

I disagree. Atheists argue that 'God' as answer to questions about where we came from is far to simplistic and shuts down the need to find actual answers, the same is true when you say the cause for psychopathic behavior is 'religion'. Its a non answer that forces you to ignore the countless of other variables that play a role in the lives of Boko Haram warriors. Religion as answer to this question does not stand to any kind of academic scrutiny.

Think about it, if religion were the cause, then why does it only affect a very select group of men in a specific region of Nigeria? There are billions of religious people all around the world, yet only a tiny minority of them displays this level of psychopathic behavior. And as I said, it mostly affects men, why would religion affect men so much more than women? All we have is correlation, but correlation is not causation. We should keep that in mind.

If it is not the cause, but as you say, an excuse, then there is even less need to drag religion into this. An excuse is what you tell yourself and others after the facts. But they don't cause the facts, and it is therefor not really relevant or interesting.
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Message 1675225 - Posted: 8 May 2015, 16:43:15 UTC - in response to Message 1675103.  

I agree. I think in this instance religion is definitely being used as an excuse to justify psychopathic behaviour, as it has been on too many occasions.

I disagree. Atheists argue that 'God' as answer to questions about where we came from is far to simplistic and shuts down the need to find actual answers, the same is true when you say the cause for psychopathic behavior is 'religion'. Its a non answer that forces you to ignore the countless of other variables that play a role in the lives of Boko Haram warriors. Religion as answer to this question does not stand to any kind of academic scrutiny.

I didn't say that religion is the cause of psychopathic behaviour. However as it is by nature delusional, it certainly can be used to help those who are psychopathic justify their behaviour and get others to go along with it.

Think about it, if religion were the cause, then why does it only affect a very select group of men in a specific region of Nigeria? There are billions of religious people all around the world, yet only a tiny minority of them displays this level of psychopathic behavior. And as I said, it mostly affects men, why would religion affect men so much more than women? All we have is correlation, but correlation is not causation. We should keep that in mind.

Again, I never once said it was the cause. I said it was used to justify psychopathic behaviour. Remember, god is created in the image of man.

If it is not the cause, but as you say, an excuse, then there is even less need to drag religion into this. An excuse is what you tell yourself and others after the facts. But they don't cause the facts, and it is therefor not really relevant or interesting.

If less people were able to be sucked in by this delusion, the psychopaths would have a harder time getting people do go along with them.

Religion is a method of mind control. It absolutely has been used to control women for over a thousand years. Whether that is boko haram or Pat Robertson.


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Message 1675245 - Posted: 8 May 2015, 17:47:04 UTC - in response to Message 1675225.  
Last modified: 8 May 2015, 18:02:24 UTC

Religion is a method of mind control. It absolutely has been used to control women for over a thousand years since the dawn of man.


There. Fixed that for you.


How Playing Good Christian Housewife Almost Killed Me
Our Christian sect encouraged a mindset in which dad was supreme patriarch. It led to extreme emotional abuse.


OMG! What a bizarre story!
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Message 1675276 - Posted: 8 May 2015, 19:02:11 UTC - in response to Message 1675245.  

OMG! What a bizarre story!

Unfortunately I don't think it is unique.
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Message 1675277 - Posted: 8 May 2015, 19:03:34 UTC - in response to Message 1675225.  

Remember, god is created in the image of man.

She is going to be very upset with you for saying that. ;-)
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Message 1675293 - Posted: 8 May 2015, 19:11:38 UTC - in response to Message 1675277.  
Last modified: 8 May 2015, 19:12:02 UTC

Remember, god is created in the image of man.

She is going to be very upset with you for saying that. ;-)

I Think I will convert to Asatru.
Both Gods and Godesses.
Today it's Frigga day:)
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Message 1675433 - Posted: 9 May 2015, 0:55:21 UTC - in response to Message 1675276.  

OMG! What a bizarre story!

Unfortunately I don't think it is unique.

What is your definition of unique, in the Western Culture?

1%, 2%, 5%, more?
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Message 1677008 - Posted: 9 May 2015, 10:08:32 UTC - in response to Message 1675225.  

I didn't say that religion is the cause of psychopathic behaviour. However as it is by nature delusional, it certainly can be used to help those who are psychopathic justify their behaviour and get others to go along with it.

If it is not a cause of conflict it is not relevant to the discussion in the sense that focusing on it doesn't adress any of the actual causes of the conflict and will not help us get any closer to actually understanding whats going on.

If less people were able to be sucked in by this delusion, the psychopaths would have a harder time getting people do go along with them.

No they wouldn't. You and every other human being believes in thousands of equally delusional ideas that serve just as much as an excuse for violence. We have the delusions of nation, ideology and identity which have all served the cause of mass murder before and generally are far more potent excuses for crimes against humanity than religion.

Religion may be used by some as a way to exclude, control and to justify murder. But religion is used by far more people as an anchor against such things, as a method of being altruistic and helping out your fellow men. A delusion such as nation serves equally well as a way to exclude and control people, and has proven to be a perfect tool to excuse murder, but unlike religion the concept of nation has nothing built in that promotes good behavior. The delusions of ideology appear similar to religion, as they both describe an ideal way of behaving, and has a similar capacity to pit people with different ideologies against each other. But where religion describes an ideal way of behaving for individuals, which can be done instantly, ideology describes an ideal way of behaving for the state, and that first needs to be reached, through any means necessary. Its inherently more violent than religion will ever be. And the delusion of identity. This one is the most similar to religion, in the sense that identity can include a component that preaches good behavior, often exactly because religion is a component of identity. At the same time, identity is far more exclusive, and often contains an ethnic/racial dimension. Well, needless to say, the barbarism it has inspired and excused, well just look at all the ethnic cleansings in former Yugoslavia. Or even now, in Iraq and Syria, we can see how identity is tearing the place apart.

No, of all the delusions that excuse violence, religion is not nearly as bad as the delusions that would most surely replace it.

Religion is a method of mind control. It absolutely has been used to control women for over a thousand years. Whether that is boko haram or Pat Robertson.

Yes it has, but removing religion from the equation won't make society less sexist. For proof, just look at Atheism. Dawkins, along with a bunch of his Atheists friends are massive sexists, to the point of refusing to speak out against sexual assault and rape. Or guys like the 'Angry Atheist' on Youtube who spend hours raging against Feminists with poorly constructed arguments, logical fallacies and being completely oblivious to their own privilege. See how many Atheists are deeply involved with the MRA community.

Religion is a distraction. Its been horrible to women sure, but is that because religion is inherently horrible to women, or is it because religion has been formed in a society that has been horrible to women? Did we start oppressing women because religion came along? No, I doubt that before Judaism, before Christianity and before Islam women were treated as equals in those societies.
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Message 1677011 - Posted: 9 May 2015, 10:36:52 UTC

Today it's Frigga day:)

Why has she got three feet or a long left arm??
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Message 1677018 - Posted: 9 May 2015, 11:04:36 UTC - in response to Message 1677011.  

Today it's Frigga day:)

Why has she got three feet or a long left arm??

Here is a better depiction.
She is the cosmic weaver, associated with the New year, which is the great twelve day celebration of Yule, beginning December 20th.
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Message 1677254 - Posted: 9 May 2015, 18:14:46 UTC - in response to Message 1677008.  
Last modified: 9 May 2015, 18:15:27 UTC

I didn't say that religion is the cause of psychopathic behaviour. However as it is by nature delusional, it certainly can be used to help those who are psychopathic justify their behaviour and get others to go along with it.

If it is not a cause of conflict it is not relevant to the discussion in the sense that focusing on it doesn't adress any of the actual causes of the conflict and will not help us get any closer to actually understanding whats going on.

I agree in a sense, but because religion is something that people can't easily challenge (deferring to higher power that cannot be questioned) it is a tool that makes it easier to get people to do as you want.


No they wouldn't. You and every other human being believes in thousands of equally delusional ideas that serve just as much as an excuse for violence. We have the delusions of nation, ideology and identity which have all served the cause of mass murder before and generally are far more potent excuses for crimes against humanity than religion.

This is true, however most of these are self evidently wrong and easier to fight against. You are correct though, that religion is by no means the only way that control is exercised against people.

Religion may be used by some as a way to exclude, control and to justify murder. But religion is used by far more people as an anchor against such things, as a method of being altruistic and helping out your fellow men. A delusion such as nation serves equally well as a way to exclude and control people, and has proven to be a perfect tool to excuse murder, but unlike religion the concept of nation has nothing built in that promotes good behavior. The delusions of ideology appear similar to religion, as they both describe an ideal way of behaving, and has a similar capacity to pit people with different ideologies against each other. But where religion describes an ideal way of behaving for individuals, which can be done instantly, ideology describes an ideal way of behaving for the state, and that first needs to be reached, through any means necessary. Its inherently more violent than religion will ever be. And the delusion of identity. This one is the most similar to religion, in the sense that identity can include a component that preaches good behavior, often exactly because religion is a component of identity. At the same time, identity is far more exclusive, and often contains an ethnic/racial dimension. Well, needless to say, the barbarism it has inspired and excused, well just look at all the ethnic cleansings in former Yugoslavia. Or even now, in Iraq and Syria, we can see how identity is tearing the place apart.

Also a valid point, and I am aware that some people do need to structure that religion supplies to be able to do good. However, I wonder if that is like replacing Heroine with Methadone and perhaps we need to teach people a better ethical foundation?

No, of all the delusions that excuse violence, religion is not nearly as bad as the delusions that would most surely replace it.

I don't agree with this simply because by definition God is not someone that can be challenged when he asks you do something that might be wrong. He does work in mysterious ways, after all.


Yes it has, but removing religion from the equation won't make society less sexist. For proof, just look at Atheism. Dawkins, along with a bunch of his Atheists friends are massive sexists, to the point of refusing to speak out against sexual assault and rape. Or guys like the 'Angry Atheist' on Youtube who spend hours raging against Feminists with poorly constructed arguments, logical fallacies and being completely oblivious to their own privilege. See how many Atheists are deeply involved with the MRA community.

I totally agree with you that there is a lot of sexism amongst atheists. I have followed several atheist pages on facebook hoping to get some like minded ideas only to leave because of the sexism. However, all I have to do is challenge them as sexist and they can take that or leave it, what they cannot do is fall back on religion to justify how they behave. In some groups I and other women have been able to make headway and get them to see the sexism. That would be almost impossible if they were backed up by a dogma that supported sexism.

Religion is a distraction. Its been horrible to women sure, but is that because religion is inherently horrible to women, or is it because religion has been formed in a society that has been horrible to women? Did we start oppressing women because religion came along? No, I doubt that before Judaism, before Christianity and before Islam women were treated as equals in those societies.

There were plenty of religions before that did not oppress women. Judaism in its very early days had two gods, male and female. It is only when men figured out that they had something to do with where the babies came from, that they began to want to control women rather than worship their ability to bring life into the world.
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Message 1677258 - Posted: 9 May 2015, 18:35:10 UTC - in response to Message 1677254.  

Judaism in its very early days had two gods, male and female.

I didn't know that ES.
Dualism is the best.
Wonder why the major religions always make the God a Man?
Make no sense to me. And Frigga of course.
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Message 1677267 - Posted: 9 May 2015, 19:22:44 UTC

Wonder why the major religions always make the God a Man?

The Greeks and Romans had plenty of Goddesses as well as Gods.
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Message 1677302 - Posted: 9 May 2015, 21:01:17 UTC - in response to Message 1677267.  
Last modified: 9 May 2015, 21:06:21 UTC

Wonder why the major religions always make the God a Man?

The Greeks and Romans had plenty of Goddesses as well as Gods.

Yes One was Isis (not ISIS) a goddess from the polytheistic pantheon of Egypt. She was first worshiped in Ancient Egyptian religion, and later her worship spread throughout the Roman empire and the greater Greco-Roman world. Isis is still widely worshiped by many pagans today in diverse religious contexts; including a number of distinct pagan religions, the modern Goddess movement, and interfaith organizations such as the Fellowship of Isis.

Frigga is probably a copy of Isis as many deitis are in Asatru.

The Madonna in the catholic Church is the same.
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Message 1677637 - Posted: 10 May 2015, 10:06:38 UTC - in response to Message 1677254.  

I agree in a sense, but because religion is something that people can't easily challenge (deferring to higher power that cannot be questioned) it is a tool that makes it easier to get people to do as you want.

Yes, its hard to challenge authority. But I don't think it matters what form that authority takes. Its no easier to question authority if that authority comes in the form of the 'Great Leader' or 'Furher' or even 'President of the United States'. Maybe we are more likely to question it afterwards, but by then its to late.


This is true, however most of these are self evidently wrong and easier to fight against. You are correct though, that religion is by no means the only way that control is exercised against people.

If the delusion of nation is so self evidently wrong, then why does the majority of the human race still believe in it? In fact, if its so self evidently wrong, then why is the ENTIRE international political order based around the concept of the nation state? The amount of people that do not identify themselves as part of a larger community of people known as 'nation' is even less common than people who do not identify through the belief in God.

And well, ethnic identity, how is that self evidently wrong? Ideology isn't self evidently wrong, as ideology describes an ideal form of society. Its neither right nor wrong, just an ideal that people can pursue.

Also a valid point, and I am aware that some people do need to structure that religion supplies to be able to do good. However, I wonder if that is like replacing Heroine with Methadone and perhaps we need to teach people a better ethical foundation?

Perhaps for some doing good for its own sake works. But it is so nihilistic and that doesn't work for a lot of people. Things like Fatalism and Nihilism only work for some people, but most can't handle the idea that they are not in control and that everything they do doesn't matter anyways.

I don't agree with this simply because by definition God is not someone that can be challenged when he asks you do something that might be wrong. He does work in mysterious ways, after all.

Well like I said, most people can't challenge authority period. They will just do what they are told, even if they know its wrong. Just put on a uniform or a labcoat and about 2/3 of humanity will do as you command.


I totally agree with you that there is a lot of sexism amongst atheists. I have followed several atheist pages on facebook hoping to get some like minded ideas only to leave because of the sexism. However, all I have to do is challenge them as sexist and they can take that or leave it, what they cannot do is fall back on religion to justify how they behave. In some groups I and other women have been able to make headway and get them to see the sexism. That would be almost impossible if they were backed up by a dogma that supported sexism.

I disagree. I mean, sure they can't fall back on religion. Instead they will fall back on some poorly understood (evolutionary) biology. And in the end, does it matter? Sexism is sexism, whether its done in the name of God or in the name of nothing.

Also, maybe you are overstating the role that religious dogma plays in the daily life of an average religious person. Sure, fundamentalists live by their dogma, but most religious people don't. Talk to them and I'm sure you will find people who believe in God and who will listen and accept your arguments.

There were plenty of religions before that did not oppress women. Judaism in its very early days had two gods, male and female. It is only when men figured out that they had something to do with where the babies came from, that they began to want to control women rather than worship their ability to bring life into the world.

That only supports my point that religion isn't inherently sexist. Its society that is sexists and shapes religion to be sexist as well. Therefor, if we tackle sexism in society, religion will change as well.
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Message 1677639 - Posted: 10 May 2015, 10:17:37 UTC - in response to Message 1677637.  

Well like I said, most people can't challenge authority period. They will just do what they are told, even if they know its wrong. Just put on a uniform or a labcoat and about 2/3 of humanity will do as you command.

Really, you honestly think that? Remember the UK Summer riots of 2011? The only time that uniforms work is in a police state or a military based government. At present we apparently have crowds demonstrating outside Downing Street In London. So you are expecting 2/3 of them to just go home because a copper tells them to? As for lab coats, are we talking the medical profession here? If we are it is usually sensible to follow your doctor's advice.
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Message 1677643 - Posted: 10 May 2015, 10:45:23 UTC - in response to Message 1677639.  

Really, you honestly think that? Remember the UK Summer riots of 2011? The only time that uniforms work is in a police state or a military based government. At present we apparently have crowds demonstrating outside Downing Street In London. So you are expecting 2/3 of them to just go home because a copper tells them to? As for lab coats, are we talking the medical profession here? If we are it is usually sensible to follow your doctor's advice.

I suggest you look up the Milgram experiment.
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Message 1677661 - Posted: 10 May 2015, 13:21:21 UTC - in response to Message 1677639.  

Well like I said, most people can't challenge authority period. They will just do what they are told, even if they know its wrong. Just put on a uniform or a labcoat and about 2/3 of humanity will do as you command.

Really, you honestly think that? Remember the UK Summer riots of 2011? The only time that uniforms work is in a police state or a military based government. At present we apparently have crowds demonstrating outside Downing Street In London. So you are expecting 2/3 of them to just go home because a copper tells them to? As for lab coats, are we talking the medical profession here? If we are it is usually sensible to follow your doctor's advice.

Have a friend who used to sell cars.

He said the worst 'bargainer's' were Doctors.

Have heard similar comments, regarding Doctors, in other things.

They are experts in their Field.

Apparently nothing else.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton
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Message 1677731 - Posted: 10 May 2015, 15:40:36 UTC - in response to Message 1677643.  

Really, you honestly think that? Remember the UK Summer riots of 2011? The only time that uniforms work is in a police state or a military based government. At present we apparently have crowds demonstrating outside Downing Street In London. So you are expecting 2/3 of them to just go home because a copper tells them to? As for lab coats, are we talking the medical profession here? If we are it is usually sensible to follow your doctor's advice.

I suggest you look up the Milgram experiment.


There is now some debate about the validity of Milgram's experiment.

Did Stanley Milgram's Famous Obedience Experiments Prove Anything?
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Message 1677741 - Posted: 10 May 2015, 16:03:35 UTC - in response to Message 1677731.  

Really, you honestly think that? Remember the UK Summer riots of 2011? The only time that uniforms work is in a police state or a military based government. At present we apparently have crowds demonstrating outside Downing Street In London. So you are expecting 2/3 of them to just go home because a copper tells them to? As for lab coats, are we talking the medical profession here? If we are it is usually sensible to follow your doctor's advice.

I suggest you look up the Milgram experiment.


There is now some debate about the validity of Milgram's experiment.

Did Stanley Milgram's Famous Obedience Experiments Prove Anything?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
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Message boards : Politics : Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking... (#3)


 
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