Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking... (#3)

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Message 1689216 - Posted: 8 Jun 2015, 16:33:47 UTC

Today, I finally lost all faith in the Justice System of this country & in light of what happened, will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt. Feeling totally saddened & dejected at the moment as I've only just returned from the Crown Court.

I'm having a cuppa & trying to regain composure & will post my views when done so.

Please note that my posts will be extensive & that I am aware of the professionals that will be mentioned have a job to do.

What annoyed me, the victim & her family as well as many others was the manner in which that job was carried out.
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Message 1689241 - Posted: 8 Jun 2015, 18:39:22 UTC - in response to Message 1689216.  

Today, I finally lost all faith in the Justice System of this country & in light of what happened, will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt. Feeling totally saddened & dejected at the moment as I've only just returned from the Crown Court.

I'm having a cuppa & trying to regain composure & will post my views when done so.

Please note that my posts will be extensive & that I am aware of the professionals that will be mentioned have a job to do.

What annoyed me, the victim & her family as well as many others was the manner in which that job was carried out.

I look forward to hearing about how this terrible thing is all the fault of feminism.
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Message 1689298 - Posted: 8 Jun 2015, 22:58:04 UTC - in response to Message 1689061.  
Last modified: 8 Jun 2015, 22:59:06 UTC

So you support beheadings by ISIL then?


No .

I'm agreeing with you .

In England there is no law that i know of that says a woman should not be allowed to drive so you are correct a Rabbi that makes up there own rules outside of what the whole country has agreed to is wrong

In the case of Isil they do have the right to agree to any laws they wish and still call it freedom , however there may be very bad consequences for having the wrong rules if those rules are at odds with the rest of the world .

My reply was to Gary who seems to think religious freedom trumps all other freedoms.

I see you still are looking through a microscope. Your first error is assuming driving is a right. It is a privilege, but not important as it isn't England that is preventing driving. Actually no one is preventing driving, but your microscope can't see that far outside the box.

As to rights, there is the right of free association. Perhaps you should become familiar with it. There are also rights of private property. Religion fits in here as well, in making rules for its practice.

Now what is being said is if you arrive by car driven by a woman, you may not enter. Do you have an issue with, if you are male and arrive at a temple without wearing a yarmulka, you aren't permitted entry. Of course maybe you are like France and will ban the headscarf.

So no one is preventing driving, no ticket or arrest. What is being applied are the rights of a private property owner to pick and choose who he allows on his property, car park?, and the right of free association in not forcing anyone to associate with someone they do not choose to and Religion in devising a rule that says women do not drive children to school.

Now which "right" is more valuable or trumps the others? You can't decide this looking through your microscope. Open your mind.

The correct thing is to stop public funding if they have such an objectionable rule. This encourages them to make the choice you want, but allows them the freedom to make the choice.
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Message 1689306 - Posted: 8 Jun 2015, 23:03:07 UTC - in response to Message 1689241.  
Last modified: 8 Jun 2015, 23:05:00 UTC

Today, I finally lost all faith in the Justice System of this country & in light of what happened, will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt. Feeling totally saddened & dejected at the moment as I've only just returned from the Crown Court.

I'm having a cuppa & trying to regain composure & will post my views when done so.

Please note that my posts will be extensive & that I am aware of the professionals that will be mentioned have a job to do.

What annoyed me, the victim & her family as well as many others was the manner in which that job was carried out.

I look forward to hearing about how this terrible thing is all the fault of feminism.

A new thread deserving of more focused discussion?

Noted the lack of the Union Jack... Note that lawyers make their money from the cost and payment for argument (disputing unto quagmire ad nauseam...) ... And all clients be damned...

Justice and ideals and fair play may well be an aside. Then also, there are no winners in court...


Best of luck for all,
Martin
See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
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Message 1689316 - Posted: 8 Jun 2015, 23:58:40 UTC - in response to Message 1689298.  
Last modified: 8 Jun 2015, 23:59:02 UTC


I see you still are looking through a microscope. Your first error is assuming driving is a right. It is a privilege, but not important as it isn't England that is preventing driving. Actually no one is preventing driving, but your microscope can't see that far outside the box.

As to rights, there is the right of free association. Perhaps you should become familiar with it. There are also rights of private property. Religion fits in here as well, in making rules for its practice.

Now what is being said is if you arrive by car driven by a woman, you may not enter. Do you have an issue with, if you are male and arrive at a temple without wearing a yarmulka, you aren't permitted entry. Of course maybe you are like France and will ban the headscarf.

So no one is preventing driving, no ticket or arrest. What is being applied are the rights of a private property owner to pick and choose who he allows on his property, car park?, and the right of free association in not forcing anyone to associate with someone they do not choose to and Religion in devising a rule that says women do not drive children to school.

Now which "right" is more valuable or trumps the others? You can't decide this looking through your microscope. Open your mind.

The correct thing is to stop public funding if they have such an objectionable rule. This encourages them to make the choice you want, but allows them the freedom to make the choice.

You are right, I am looking at it through a microscope. The microscope of actual experience being a woman and having to juggle life/work with the school run. To you its trivial, to me it was often a gruelling and painful part of my day. I suspect you've never been threatened with losing your job because you were late or your childcare let you down, or there is simply no way of warping time so you can drop the kids off and make it to work. I lived 8 minutes walk from my work for 3 years, yet it would take me 30-45 minutes to get there with the drop offs and that was in a car. Without a car it would have been impossible and I would not have been able to work.

So to you, trivial, but to anyone else with any understanding, it really isn't.

It might be trivial to you as a man who clearly has never had children, but you do seem unable to step outside that bubble and see what it means to the actual women involved. Even though I am telling you, you for some reason are dismissing my perspective. I suggest you ask yourself why before you start accusing other people of looking at the world through a microscope.
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Message 1689317 - Posted: 9 Jun 2015, 0:02:25 UTC

Anita Sarkeesian Is Fighting to Make the Web Less Awful for Women – And Getting Death Threats in the Process
A very interesting read.

When I first heard of her a few years ago it really helped me to put my experience here on seti in perspective and realise that the harassment and threats I received were part of a wider problem with the way outspoken women are treated on the internet. I have been a fan of her work ever since and her videos are excellent if you ever get a chance to watch them.
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Message 1689385 - Posted: 9 Jun 2015, 4:32:50 UTC - in response to Message 1689316.  

You are right, I am looking at it through a microscope.

Yes, the one that assumes the child must be enrolled in that particular religious school. The one that assumes the father will abuse the mother, or abduct the child, if the child has to go to a different school. The one that assumes the school is too far for the American Experience of walking 5 miles to school, uphill both ways through snow. Then there is another American Experience of forced busing being sent to a school ten miles away to meet a racial quota. Yes, likely because this is a religious school and not a public one, some of the children live a fair distance away, but sending the child to that particular school is a choice, and not all choices are without consequence.
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Message 1689387 - Posted: 9 Jun 2015, 4:54:07 UTC - in response to Message 1689385.  

You are right, I am looking at it through a microscope.

Yes, the one that assumes the child must be enrolled in that particular religious school. The one that assumes the father will abuse the mother, or abduct the child, if the child has to go to a different school. The one that assumes the school is too far for the American Experience of walking 5 miles to school, uphill both ways through snow. Then there is another American Experience of forced busing being sent to a school ten miles away to meet a racial quota. Yes, likely because this is a religious school and not a public one, some of the children live a fair distance away, but sending the child to that particular school is a choice, and not all choices are without consequence.

It has become very clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. or even what I am talking about.

I am not assuming anything. I am only aware that once you take away choice, it makes people vulnerable to abuse. I am not saying that anyone will behave in one way or another, I am saying that if they do, you have put people in a situation where they can do very little about it.
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Message 1689399 - Posted: 9 Jun 2015, 6:11:33 UTC - in response to Message 1689387.  

You are right, I am looking at it through a microscope.

Yes, the one that assumes the child must be enrolled in that particular religious school. The one that assumes the father will abuse the mother, or abduct the child, if the child has to go to a different school. The one that assumes the school is too far for the American Experience of walking 5 miles to school, uphill both ways through snow. Then there is another American Experience of forced busing being sent to a school ten miles away to meet a racial quota. Yes, likely because this is a religious school and not a public one, some of the children live a fair distance away, but sending the child to that particular school is a choice, and not all choices are without consequence.

It has become very clear to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. or even what I am talking about.

I am not assuming anything. I am only aware that once you take away choice, it makes people vulnerable to abuse. I am not saying that anyone will behave in one way or another, I am saying that if they do, you have put people in a situation where they can do very little about it.

Choice was not taken away, only your perception, perhaps colored by your life experience, that choice was taken away.
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Message 1689407 - Posted: 9 Jun 2015, 6:47:11 UTC - in response to Message 1689317.  

Anita Sarkeesian Is Fighting to Make the Web Less Awful for Women – And Getting Death Threats in the Process
A very interesting read.

When I first heard of her a few years ago it really helped me to put my experience here on seti in perspective and realise that the harassment and threats I received were part of a wider problem with the way outspoken women are treated on the internet. I have been a fan of her work ever since and her videos are excellent if you ever get a chance to watch them.

She is a bit of a polarizing person. I'm not sure about her though. I mean I recognize how valuable it is to have someone like her call out all the sexist nonsense that is happening, particular in the games industry, and she makes some very good points. But at an academic level she can be a bit shoddy. Some of her claims aren't really supported by evidence or the evidence is ripped out of its wider context, and she gives no space to any counter arguments. Now of course, shes an advocate, so it makes sense to some degree that she ignores counter arguments, but at the same time I think the thing you are advocating for would be better served if you can also handle the counter arguments and prove that they are wrong or not relevant to the discussion.

Finally, I don't think it helps that the underlying theory of her work is...well, pretty much nonsense. Pop culture doesn't influence the way people think, the way people think influences what pop culture shows. Games don't cause violence, that is a scientifically proven fact at this point. So why should they cause sexism? Well, they don't. Games depict sexism and sexist attitudes because the people that make them are sexists.

That all said, I do like watching her videos. They are interesting, regardless of whether I agree with everything she says.
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Message 1689514 - Posted: 9 Jun 2015, 15:46:29 UTC - in response to Message 1689407.  

Anita Sarkeesian Is Fighting to Make the Web Less Awful for Women – And Getting Death Threats in the Process
A very interesting read.

When I first heard of her a few years ago it really helped me to put my experience here on seti in perspective and realise that the harassment and threats I received were part of a wider problem with the way outspoken women are treated on the internet. I have been a fan of her work ever since and her videos are excellent if you ever get a chance to watch them.

She is a bit of a polarizing person. I'm not sure about her though. I mean I recognize how valuable it is to have someone like her call out all the sexist nonsense that is happening, particular in the games industry, and she makes some very good points. But at an academic level she can be a bit shoddy. Some of her claims aren't really supported by evidence or the evidence is ripped out of its wider context, and she gives no space to any counter arguments. Now of course, shes an advocate, so it makes sense to some degree that she ignores counter arguments, but at the same time I think the thing you are advocating for would be better served if you can also handle the counter arguments and prove that they are wrong or not relevant to the discussion.

Finally, I don't think it helps that the underlying theory of her work is...well, pretty much nonsense. Pop culture doesn't influence the way people think, the way people think influences what pop culture shows. Games don't cause violence, that is a scientifically proven fact at this point. So why should they cause sexism? Well, they don't. Games depict sexism and sexist attitudes because the people that make them are sexists.

That all said, I do like watching her videos. They are interesting, regardless of whether I agree with everything she says.

Pop culture is just one area that does enforce patriarchal ideas. Video games do promote the idea that women are objects, but so do many other things, they are just part of the problem. Her ideas can be applied in many other places, such as movies, TV, news media. She writes about gaming because that is where her interest lies and there really is a problem with sexism in gaming. From a recent conversation with my niece who is studying a computing degree at the moment, the problem is really bad. So much so that it is causing her problems and I am concerned for her safety. She told me that at a recent coding competition she took part in some really vile things were said to her by other competitors.

You might not agree with Anita Sarkeesian's research and any issues with it need to be discussed in an academic framework, but the fact that the response has been death and rape threats over it suggests there really is a big problem...and its not a problem merely associated with gaming. It happens in a lot of online spaces.
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Message 1689525 - Posted: 9 Jun 2015, 22:36:28 UTC - in response to Message 1689514.  
Last modified: 9 Jun 2015, 22:40:21 UTC

Pop culture is just one area that does enforce patriarchal ideas

Nonsense.
http://www.eurovision.tv/tag/expand/Gay
Stockholm, Sweden - The first ever winner of the Eurovision Song Contest, Lys Assia, and the latest winner, Emmelie de Forest will perform at Scandinavia's largest gay pride event, organisers have announced.
http://www.eurovision.tv/page/news?id=lys_assia_and_emmelie_to_perform_at_stockholm_pride
http://www.eurovision.tv/page/news?id=stockholm_pride_becomes_eurovision_extravaganza
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Message 1689528 - Posted: 9 Jun 2015, 22:43:55 UTC

Women only worth a pack of cigarettes at auction
http://rt.com/news/266029-isis-girls-slaves-sold/
Teenage girls kidnapped by ISIS in Iraq and Syria are being sold in slave markets “for as little as a pack of cigarettes,” according to the UN envoy on sexual violence.

The findings come after Zainab Bangura's April visit to Iraq and Syria, during which she spoke to women and girls who had fled captivity in areas controlled by Islamic State (formerly ISIS/ISIL).


Virgins however:
to several hundred or thousand dollars.


What is old is new again:
“They kidnap and abduct women when they take areas so they have – I don’t want to call it a fresh supply – but they have new girls,” she said, as quoted by AFP.

Bangura relayed the traumatic situations experienced by several teenage girls, many of whom were part of the Yazidi minority targeted by the fighters.

“Some were taken, locked up in a room – over 100 of them in a small house – stripped naked and washed,” she said.

They were then made to stand in front of a group of men who decided “what you are worth.”

She added that ISIS is aiming “to build a society that reflects the 13th century,” calling the abuse “medieval.”


Yes some choose this:
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/24/europe/turkey-uk-missing-girls/
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Message 1689543 - Posted: 9 Jun 2015, 23:09:32 UTC - in response to Message 1689241.  

Today, I finally lost all faith in the Justice System of this country & in light of what happened, will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt. Feeling totally saddened & dejected at the moment as I've only just returned from the Crown Court.

I'm having a cuppa & trying to regain composure & will post my views when done so.

Please note that my posts will be extensive & that I am aware of the professionals that will be mentioned have a job to do.

What annoyed me, the victim & her family as well as many others was the manner in which that job was carried out.

I look forward to hearing about how this terrible thing is all the fault of feminism.

What? Where have I blamed feminism? I think you need to get off that "feminist high horse". You should have waited until you saw the relevant posts before making unwarranted assumptions. It's been a hectic day & I need to collate all my notes into a recognisable summary.
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Message 1689570 - Posted: 10 Jun 2015, 0:45:06 UTC - in response to Message 1689543.  

Today, I finally lost all faith in the Justice System of this country & in light of what happened, will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt. Feeling totally saddened & dejected at the moment as I've only just returned from the Crown Court.

I'm having a cuppa & trying to regain composure & will post my views when done so.

Please note that my posts will be extensive & that I am aware of the professionals that will be mentioned have a job to do.

What annoyed me, the victim & her family as well as many others was the manner in which that job was carried out.

I look forward to hearing about how this terrible thing is all the fault of feminism.

What? Where have I blamed feminism? I think you need to get off that "feminist high horse". You should have waited until you saw the relevant posts before making unwarranted assumptions. It's been a hectic day & I need to collate all my notes into a recognisable summary.



Feminist high horse is it? You can't think of any reason why I might have got the impression that you thought the problem was with feminism? Not one?
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Message 1689573 - Posted: 10 Jun 2015, 0:52:27 UTC - in response to Message 1689570.  
Last modified: 10 Jun 2015, 0:57:55 UTC

will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt.

Thats not blaming feminism.
If not allowed critizing feminism then what?
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Message 1689574 - Posted: 10 Jun 2015, 0:56:44 UTC - in response to Message 1689573.  

will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt.

Thats not blaming feminism.

To me it reads that something happened to do with feminism that makes his dismiss it as wrong or stupid. That is what taking something with a pinch of salt means.

In this context he talking about the court case, so he must mean that something happened that made him think feminism is wrong. Hence me wondering what feminism did.
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Message 1689575 - Posted: 10 Jun 2015, 0:58:28 UTC - in response to Message 1689570.  

Today, I finally lost all faith in the Justice System of this country & in light of what happened, will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt. Feeling totally saddened & dejected at the moment as I've only just returned from the Crown Court.

I'm having a cuppa & trying to regain composure & will post my views when done so.

Please note that my posts will be extensive & that I am aware of the professionals that will be mentioned have a job to do.

What annoyed me, the victim & her family as well as many others was the manner in which that job was carried out.

I look forward to hearing about how this terrible thing is all the fault of feminism.

What? Where have I blamed feminism? I think you need to get off that "feminist high horse". You should have waited until you saw the relevant posts before making unwarranted assumptions. It's been a hectic day & I need to collate all my notes into a recognisable summary.

Feminist high horse is it? You can't think of any reason why I might have got the impression that you thought the problem was with feminism? Not one?

Gosh, salt and feminism. What does that mean anyway. AFAICT it could mean he will pay it more heed.

I'd give him a couple more days to compose his thoughts because right now I get the feeling he is so emotional that he may well skip words or punctuation which reverses what he is trying to write.
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Message 1689576 - Posted: 10 Jun 2015, 1:07:57 UTC - in response to Message 1689574.  

will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt.

Thats not blaming feminism.

To me it reads that something happened to do with feminism that makes his dismiss it as wrong or stupid. That is what taking something with a pinch of salt means.
In this context he talking about the court case, so he must mean that something happened that made him think feminism is wrong. Hence me wondering what feminism did.

Taking something with a pinch of salt means that you listen to a statement that you dont fully agree with.
Don't read between the lines...
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Message 1689651 - Posted: 10 Jun 2015, 5:27:45 UTC - in response to Message 1689573.  

will forever more take feminism with a pinch of salt.

Thats not blaming feminism.
If not allowed critizing feminism then what?

Only the Idiots (or worse), believe anything, or anyone, is above criticism.

You understand the type.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton
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Message boards : Politics : Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking... (#3)


 
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