Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking... (#3)

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Message 1683619 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 7:19:14 UTC - in response to Message 1683612.  
Last modified: 24 May 2015, 7:20:28 UTC

Not at all. Though above you did misstate what it was that you think I am accusing you of, and that is highlighted here in that you are trying to put it all off to my feelings rather than understand the problem.

I know how difficult it is to have that accusation levelled at you when you are trying to make a point.

And I called none of that into question. What I have called into question is the fact that you seemed to support the projection of me as a sexist (note I did not say that you actually called me one) based solely on my offering a personal opinion and that I happen to be a male giving an opinion on female boob jobs, as if my sex negates my ability to have an opinion. I then correlate my experience with what I've seen others here say and can't help but wonder if you've done the same to them.

No, I support the assertion that your comment could taken as sexist. Demanding that women should or should not behave in a certain way because you don't like it is pretty much at the heart of sexism.

No, it is not a feeling, it is an observation, and one I thought I'd share because I'm trying to give you feedback on how you come across.

Why? I don't see you giving anyone else feedback on how they come across. Why single me out in particular?

Although if we are doing that, to be honest I found your calling out of my past relationship as if it somehow defined me very hostile. I also found your calling out Hev as my mother as if that somehow negated her point of view pretty hostile. It was not a good way to approach someone.

You give me far too much power if you think it was a demand.

I don't have to. Society has already given you that power. Your voice and your wishes are heard very easily. I bet you rarely get abused for them, you are very defensive right now because they have been challenged. Can you imagine living in a world where that happens to you on a daily basis? Imagine if your views and opinions were often ignored, belittled, dismissed, or people would "kindly" tell you unasked how you might do things better.

Imagine if you were taking your life into your hands expressing those views. Are you aware that I know for a fact I am putting my safety at risk by expressing my views this way on a public forum? I live with that. You live with feeling a little put out because I wasn't nice enough to you.


And here it is again: seizing upon the sexual nature of the comments; that I happen to be a male giving an opinion on something females (and males) do, despite that I would and have done the same to men seems to suggest a bias you cannot get past. You refuse to see me as a human giving an opinion on what another human does to themselves. You see me as a man ordering around women and you put a pejorative label on it. This label is alienating toward your cause.

People have opinions. People have opinions about each other. People have opinions about the opposite sex, including yourself. Not all opinions about the opposite sex are sexist by necessity.

The opinion part was "I don't like them" Then you went on to say what they should do about it as if there should be some action taken on your opinion. Women get told all the time what we should do. Please don't do it.

Also, don't offer unsolicited advice on how we should do things. That includes expressing our opinions on message boards.
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Message 1683621 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 7:20:56 UTC - in response to Message 1683607.  

This is the way that it should be done. Putting forward some third party reading matter that gives alternative views upon a subject, not just keeping on about the views expressed here. Well done Hev, one of you usual "lets all stand back, take a breath, and have another think posts". We need more of this.

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Message 1683627 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 8:03:42 UTC - in response to Message 1683619.  

And I called none of that into question. What I have called into question is the fact that you seemed to support the projection of me as a sexist (note I did not say that you actually called me one) based solely on my offering a personal opinion and that I happen to be a male giving an opinion on female boob jobs, as if my sex negates my ability to have an opinion. I then correlate my experience with what I've seen others here say and can't help but wonder if you've done the same to them.

No, I support the assertion that your comment could taken as sexist. Demanding that women should or should not behave in a certain way because you don't like it is pretty much at the heart of sexism.


Ok, we need to separate something important here. I am very clearly not telling women how they should behave. I am telling women they shouldn't 'enhanced' their bodies for men. One would think this position is supportable by the feminist perspective, but all anyone saw was yet another man ordering around women.

No, it is not a feeling, it is an observation, and one I thought I'd share because I'm trying to give you feedback on how you come across.

Why? I don't see you giving anyone else feedback on how they come across. Why single me out in particular?


You're not being singled out, but I empathize with your feeling attacked by me. I am engaging you because you continue to engage with me. I would have engaged more with the others had they posted more.

Although if we are doing that, to be honest I found your calling out of my past relationship as if it somehow defined me very hostile.


I assure you I did not do that. Please go back and read again.

I also found your calling out Hev as my mother as if that somehow negated her point of view pretty hostile. It was not a good way to approach someone.


I didn't call out Hev as your mother to negate her opinion. I merely pointed out a familial relationship out of familiarity. But I do understand that, at this point when you're feeling so attacked, you would project into statements something that wasn't there.

You give me far too much power if you think it was a demand.

I don't have to. Society has already given you that power.


This is where you're blurring the lines between broadly talking to all men and making it personal with the person you're speaking with.

Your voice and your wishes are heard very easily. I bet you rarely get abused for them,


No. Oh my gosh no. You're making very bad assumptions without knowing me. I have been abused greatly in my personal life for having opinions that don't match up well with others. I would love to state much more, but I fear that no matter what I said, you would still frame the discussion as me being yet another man who just doesn't understand male privilege. I only wish you could see how wrong you are here though, at least in my specific case.

you are very defensive right now because they have been challenged.


No, I'm upset because a pejorative label has been thrusted upon me simply because of my sex and my having an opinion on female boob jobs. I'm not upset because my position is challenged. I am upset because people are seizing upon the wrong things to put their labels on others.

Can you imagine living in a world where that happens to you on a daily basis? Imagine if your views and opinions were often ignored, belittled, dismissed, or people would "kindly" tell you unasked how you might do things better. Imagine if you were taking your life into your hands expressing those views. Are you aware that I know for a fact I am putting my safety at risk by expressing my views this way on a public forum? I live with that. You live with feeling a little put out because I wasn't nice enough to you.


This is where you're victimizing yourself and appealing to my empathy. My empathy for the feminist viewpoint hasn't changed. I largely agree with it.

I don't feel a little 'put out' because you're not currently being nice to me. I feel alienated because, again, of a pejorative label that I do not feel appropriately belongs. Is that really what you want to do? Do you really think your cause is better served by making me understand that I am a man that told women what they should or should not do instead of seeing a human commentating on the human condition?

And here it is again: seizing upon the sexual nature of the comments; that I happen to be a male giving an opinion on something females (and males) do, despite that I would and have done the same to men seems to suggest a bias you cannot get past. You refuse to see me as a human giving an opinion on what another human does to themselves. You see me as a man ordering around women and you put a pejorative label on it. This label is alienating toward your cause.

People have opinions. People have opinions about each other. People have opinions about the opposite sex, including yourself. Not all opinions about the opposite sex are sexist by necessity.

The opinion part was "I don't like them" Then you went on to say what they should do about it as if there should be some action taken on your opinion.


The opinion was both parts of the statement. The call to action was to reduce the number of women feeling like they need to get a boob job to look better. Empower our younger women to feel good about themselves and who they are, not live up to some 'Barbie doll' image. Please don't separate my opinion in two or it will cause misunderstandings like this one.

Women get told all the time what we should do. Please don't do it.


Humans get told what to do all the time by each other. Please try to look past the fact that I am a male and look to what it is I'm trying to bring to light.

Also, don't offer unsolicited advice on how we should do things. That includes expressing our opinions on message boards.


If one is not allowed to commentate or provide feedback, even unsolicited, then it is effectively a one-way conversation. One side wants to be heard, but they do not want to know how well they're being heard. I would have been perfectly happy keeping my unsolicited advise to myself had I not been dragged into something I felt I had to defend my character on.
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Message 1683631 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 8:47:30 UTC - in response to Message 1683627.  

If it's any consolation, as a white person (which makes me privileged) I have to constantly monitor my internalised racism and choose my words and actions very carefully.

I think this is a useful link, I found it interesting.

what to do if someone calls you sexist
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Message 1683634 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 8:54:39 UTC - in response to Message 1683631.  

I agree entirely Hev, well done. Let's hope some others read it as well.

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Message 1683655 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 10:55:54 UTC - in response to Message 1683482.  

What!?!? I say that women shouldn't go through with cosmetic surgery because I think they should be happy with the bodies they have and you tell me it is sexist?

Its sexist because you are telling what women should and should not do.

And further you assert that their doing this offends my male sense of taste? It couldn't possibly be about me wanting people to feel good about themselves naturally?

You very clearly stated that you hate boob jobs and that every other guy you spoke too does so as well, hence we are talking about your male taste. You directly followed this statement by saying women should immediately stop having cosmetic surgery, which comes over as not a friendly suggestion but as an order for women to obey. Given how you linked it to your male taste in the previous sentence it therefor raises the suggestion that women should obey this order so they fit in your perception of beauty.

Now I grant you that you may have meant well, and that you just phrased it in a rather awkward manner. Still, you do deny the choice women have in their decision to get boob jobs or cosmetic surgery in general. Your automatic assumption is that they do it in order to appeal to men. In a number of cases, this might very well be true. Our beauty standards are inherently sexist so trying to meet would be the result of sexism as well. But that does not take away that there are also cases of people who are genuinely unhappy with how they look regardless of beauty standard. Some women want bigger breasts not because they wish to appeal to men, but because they genuinely feel unhappy or insecure with what they have. Others want smaller breasts because they are encumbered by the size of the ones they have. In either case, it is not up to you, or anyone else but the women considering the surgery, to judge whether she can or should have one, or if she should just 'be happy with what she has'.

Their self worth shouldn't come from their breast size. But obviously since you've felt the need to broadly defend cosmetic surgery against a boob job comment, I do understand that there are times where cosmetic surgery can help during certain situations such as after a terrible car accident. I would hope that in context with a boob job comment, you would understand that I am only referring to unnecessary cosmetic surgery like buttocks injections and lip injections just for the sake of altering one's appearance to best fit some notion of beauty.

So no earrings, no piercings, no tattoos and no make up either? All they do is alter someones appearance to meet a notion of beauty. The problem is in most cases the notion of beauty and the way that gets determined.

But having a notion of beauty, as well as trying to meet that notion of beauty is not inherently problematic, provided that the notion of beauty is determined by whoever is trying to reach that notion, and not by what others deem to be beauty. That is why your comment is again, problematic. In your effort to take down one socially imposed, sexist notion of beauty, you replace it with another socially imposed, sexist notion of beauty, namely YOUR notion of beauty.
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Message 1683670 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 12:36:33 UTC - in response to Message 1683539.  
Last modified: 24 May 2015, 12:38:01 UTC

In 40+ years in the work force women have always had pay equity.

Not true.
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=77233&postid=1682743#1682743
Sweden's women miss out 10,000 Euros every minute in comparison to men.
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Message 1683684 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 13:17:50 UTC - in response to Message 1683631.  
Last modified: 24 May 2015, 13:31:03 UTC

what to do if someone calls you sexist

It is interesting as it highlighted something I've wondered about myself for over 40 years. Not long after the KenzieB affair, I posted an image of myself as my avatar - A comment was posted in that I was a "moustachioed stud".

I couldn't stop laughing at that as I have never seen myself as one or acted as one, I have always treated women with the respect they deserve. The problem is men & women & their psychological makeup. I held a party earlier this year with the majority of the guests being female.

It was a good party, great fun & conversation. however within days I received several Skype & e-mail messages. They were not that pleasant to read. I could not understand as to why. I found out later what the problem was. It was not my problem but theirs, so I lost a couple of friends(they could not have been true friends with thoughts like that in their heads - so good riddance To give you an idea of the problem, some men have their brains between their ears while others...).

Now we come to sexism & what your daughter posted...

I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please


Fair point, but at what cost?

2 years ago on returning home, a lovely woman who I knew by sight was trying to contact my neighbour, unfortunately he was in hospital. A friend had let her down & she needed some assistance until she got paid in 2 days time. Over the next 2 years I got to know her & her daughter well. However what I've learnt & seen, I sympathised with the daughter.

She lost her father at the age of 7 due to alcoholism & drugs. While she continues to live with her mother, her older sister will not see her. Due to her mother's lifestyle & attitude that no one tells her what to do, she was passed over to Social Services as her mother could not cope with her.

While in Social Services care, her mother entered another relationship & had another 2 children, both boys, not long after the births, the relationship ended. Shortly after that the mother entered another relationship that not only her daughter advised against but Social Services advised against it - she refused to listen & she lost the boys. Her partner was a convicted paedophile. Also the father of the boys was a reformed smackhead & now back on weed.

From October last year to January this year, it seemed as their lives were talking a turn for the better which was nice to see. Her mother as well as the daughter have lovely hearts & lovely characters. Unfortunately that all went pear shaped on the 21/1/15 (posted a link to this on the hospitals thread).

A neighbour a hard drug user & alcoholic lost his partner to a heroin overdose, that very same day, the mother was there. Over the next few months I've had both here seeking support & advice. The daughter's was genuine, the mother's was not. It has all come to a head last Monday night with both women in tears. It took me ages to get them both to calm down & stop their shouting.

I had visits for the next 4 nights, from either one or the other but never both. Thursday night was what destroyed me. I could tell that the mother was pregnant & asked her, she did not acknowledge but her actions that night caused an effect on me that I have hated for over 50 years - She made my skin crawl.

Last night, her daughter was here for several hours & the tears & turmoil from her was soul destroying. What I was told was unbelievable. The druggie was trying to get her drunk so that he could have both mother & daughter. There was also threats against me. Her daughter has found out that the druggie gets a lot of cash once a month from his loaded parents & last night was the final straw for the poor girl. Her mother was there naked after having sex with used needles all over the place.

I have informed her daughter that I will be applying for a restraining order against the mother as I do not want her near me. I've always been of the opinion that a mistake repeated more than once is not a mistake but a decision.

So a question for the females on this thread (no sarcastic, ignorant or arrogant comments from males please)...

Am I a sexist for wanting a restraining order?

At what cost is it okay for a woman to do as she pleases?

Bear in mind that there are now 4 children in the world with issues with a potentially 5th to come.

Edit: Sorry to forgot to mention this.

Last night the daughter had me genuinely in tears. She came to see me because she trusted & respected me & wanted someone to talk to. While arguing with her mother she told her that she was close to committing suicide & her mother told her to go ahead as she's fed up of having her around. As for the pregnancy, her daughter confirmed it.

Also I have seen many situations such as this one over the past 40 years - they are not something that was heard from 3rd parties or read in newspapers or seen on TV.
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Message 1683708 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 14:38:20 UTC - in response to Message 1683631.  

If it's any consolation, as a white person (which makes me privileged) I have to constantly monitor my internalised racism and choose my words and actions very carefully.


This type of hyper-sensitivity is not the type of society I want to live in. If that's the end game scenario that some feminists are going after, then I'm afraid that's one area where I will have to disagree.
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Message 1683710 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 14:42:05 UTC
Last modified: 24 May 2015, 14:42:28 UTC

what to do if someone calls you sexist

Nothing, really.

It is just a technique of the Unthinking Name Callers, when losing an argument.

Just understand their problem, and move on.

You can't reason with these types.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton
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Message 1683717 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 15:14:01 UTC - in response to Message 1683655.  

What!?!? I say that women shouldn't go through with cosmetic surgery because I think they should be happy with the bodies they have and you tell me it is sexist?

Its sexist because you are telling what women should and should not do.


Then judge me according to stating my opinion, not on fore-knowledge of my sex, and that I happen to be male commenting on something people do.

And further you assert that their doing this offends my male sense of taste? It couldn't possibly be about me wanting people to feel good about themselves naturally?

You very clearly stated that you hate boob jobs and that every other guy you spoke too does so as well, hence we are talking about your male taste.


Not entirely. By those statements, I am calling into question who it is that actually likes this kind of thing.

You directly followed this statement by saying women should immediately stop having cosmetic surgery, which comes over as not a friendly suggestion but as an order for women to obey.


I state many other opinions with similar passion. It still should not be read into any more than me stating my opinion.

Given how you linked it to your male taste in the previous sentence it therefor raises the suggestion that women should obey this order so they fit in your perception of beauty.


Again, no. That link is upon the reader and not the writer. This is the point where people should have seized upon the intent of the statement rather than their interpretation of the statement.

Now I grant you that you may have meant well, and that you just phrased it in a rather awkward manner. Still, you do deny the choice women have in their decision to get boob jobs or cosmetic surgery in general.


Not at all. My statement leaves open the idea that if a woman wants to do it for herself (doubtful that she does), then by all means, do it.

Your automatic assumption is that they do it in order to appeal to men. In a number of cases, this might very well be true.


Are you telling me there really is another reason? ...

Our beauty standards are inherently sexist so trying to meet would be the result of sexism as well. But that does not take away that there are also cases of people who are genuinely unhappy with how they look regardless of beauty standard. Some women want bigger breasts not because they wish to appeal to men, but because they genuinely feel unhappy or insecure with what they have.


... I guess you are. Surely you know the reason why they're unhappy or insecure is because society tells them that men like women with big(er) breasts. Surely you know how this is ingrained sexism pervasive in our society telling women how they should look to be attractive, and not because of some inherent unhappiness or insecurity for any other reason.

Others want smaller breasts because they are encumbered by the size of the ones they have.


Women getting breast reduction surgery is obviously not done to appease a male dominated society, but usually for medical reasons.

In either case, it is not up to you, or anyone else but the women considering the surgery, to judge whether she can or should have one, or if she should just 'be happy with what she has'.


Certainly I am at least entitled to my opinion. That I happen to be male and giving an opinion seems to be the unnecessary focus, and is distracting from the rest of the discussion.

Their self worth shouldn't come from their breast size. But obviously since you've felt the need to broadly defend cosmetic surgery against a boob job comment, I do understand that there are times where cosmetic surgery can help during certain situations such as after a terrible car accident. I would hope that in context with a boob job comment, you would understand that I am only referring to unnecessary cosmetic surgery like buttocks injections and lip injections just for the sake of altering one's appearance to best fit some notion of beauty.

So no earrings, no piercings, no tattoos and no make up either? All they do is alter someones appearance to meet a notion of beauty. The problem is in most cases the notion of beauty and the way that gets determined.


Yes, I'm OK with removing all that too. I am not saying that so that I can control what beauty is. I am of that opinion because I don't think women should have to put themselves through all that just to look good to the broader society.

But having a notion of beauty, as well as trying to meet that notion of beauty is not inherently problematic, provided that the notion of beauty is determined by whoever is trying to reach that notion, and not by what others deem to be beauty. That is why your comment is again, problematic.


And here is where people have read far too much into the comment that was never there. But it sure does make for great rhetoric in a discussion.

In your effort to take down one socially imposed, sexist notion of beauty, you replace it with another socially imposed, sexist notion of beauty, namely YOUR notion of beauty.


Again, no. You are creating a false dichotomy in my statements. That I do not want women to alter their appearances to appeal to society's notion of beauty, does not automatically mean I want them to appeal to my notion of beauty. The alternative conclusion is that I actually agree with those feminists who complain about this exact topic. But it seems to come down to knowledge of me being male that seems to have prevent people from seeing anything else other than a man telling women what they should do.
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Message 1683740 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 16:38:46 UTC - in response to Message 1683631.  

If it's any consolation, as a white person (which makes me privileged) I have to constantly monitor my internalised racism and choose my words and actions very carefully.

I think this is a useful link, I found it interesting.

what to do if someone calls you sexist

I think this is excellent and I don't need to say more as this is being said much better.

Please understand that while being told that you are being sexist (or that some specific thing you said or did is sexist) may feel personal, it’s not. It is not an attack on you. Sexism does not require malice. It can mean something as simple as reinforcing gender stereotypes. When someone tells you are being sexist, view it as a call for you to better yourself by becoming less sexist. That is a good thing—and it’s something you should want too! Try to be introspective rather than defensive.

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Message 1683748 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 17:06:24 UTC - in response to Message 1683717.  

Then judge me according to stating my opinion, not on fore-knowledge of my sex, and that I happen to be male commenting on something people do.

Yes, but the combination of you being male and stating this particular opinion makes it sexist.

Not entirely. By those statements, I am calling into question who it is that actually likes this kind of thing.

You probably know well enough that you and your friends view on boob jobs represents nothing more than the view of you and your friends. Its an ineffective way of calling into question who actually likes this type of plastic surgery.

I state many other opinions with similar passion. It still should not be read into any more than me stating my opinion.

You call it passion, but it reads and sounds like an order. Just so you know for future reference.

Again, no. That link is upon the reader and not the writer. This is the point where people should have seized upon the intent of the statement rather than their interpretation of the statement.

Then as writer you did a poor job of conveying your intent in your message.


Are you telling me there really is another reason? ...

I've met a few women who were considering it because they were unhappy with the size and shape of their breasts. It is difficult however, to see how much of that unhappiness is caused because they felt their breast size didn't appeal enough to men. It certainly was not the outward primary reason, but it could have contributed on a unconscious level. The question is, how do you measure that?

... I guess you are. Surely you know the reason why they're unhappy or insecure is because society tells them that men like women with big(er) breasts. Surely you know how this is ingrained sexism pervasive in our society telling women how they should look to be attractive, and not because of some inherent unhappiness or insecurity for any other reason.

How do you know what the motivations of the people that want a boob job are? You assume their is only one reason and that is because they do it to please someone else. I doubt that the reason why people get plastic surgery can be boiled down to this one simple argument. Nothing is ever that simple.


Yes, I'm OK with removing all that too. I am not saying that so that I can control what beauty is. I am of that opinion because I don't think women should have to put themselves through all that just to look good to the broader society.

Of course no one should have to. But there are plenty of people that want to. Besides, those things can also be used to achieve a different, unorthodox beauty standard. Various sub cultures include the heavy use of make up, corrective surgery or other types of body modification to achieve their ideal image. Personally I love the goth look, but the women that go for it can hardly be accused of trying to appease the mainstream beauty type now do they?

And here is where people have read far too much into the comment that was never there. But it sure does make for great rhetoric in a discussion.

Its what you get for stating your opinion as an absolute.

The alternative conclusion is that I actually agree with those feminists who complain about this exact topic. But it seems to come down to knowledge of me being male that seems to have prevent people from seeing anything else other than a man telling women what they should do.

No, the problem here is that you are saying you would deny women the choice to decide for themselves if they want to modify their body in a particular way. Oh sure, technically you say that women may choose, but when they choose something that is not your choice, you end up looking down on them because they enable oppression or something. Feminists who argue the same, and also want to deny women the choice, or who look down upon others for choosing differently, well I disagree with them as well.
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Message 1683757 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 17:38:59 UTC - in response to Message 1683748.  

...
No, the problem here is that you are saying you would deny women the choice to decide for themselves if they want to modify their body in a particular way. Oh sure, technically you say that women may choose, but when they choose something that is not your choice, you end up looking down on them because they enable oppression or something. Feminists who argue the same, and also want to deny women the choice, or who look down upon others for choosing differently, well I disagree with them as well.

I liken this to the argument about the Burqa. I don't like it, I think it is a symbol of women's oppression, but I think it is wrong to order women not to wear it if they want to. Doing this would be the opposite end of the same extreme were we are still policing what women wear.

I have no idea what reason's women have for having cosmetic surgery, but its not up to me to tell them what to do. The best I can do is try to change the attitudes of a society that makes them feel it is their best option.

The first step towards that is pointing out when people unconsciously take on attitudes or speak in a way that reinforces those views.
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Message 1683758 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 17:42:56 UTC - in response to Message 1683740.  

If it's any consolation, as a white person (which makes me privileged) I have to constantly monitor my internalised racism and choose my words and actions very carefully.

I think this is a useful link, I found it interesting.

what to do if someone calls you sexist

I think this is excellent and I don't need to say more as this is being said much better.

Please understand that while being told that you are being sexist (or that some specific thing you said or did is sexist) may feel personal, it’s not. It is not an attack on you. Sexism does not require malice. It can mean something as simple as reinforcing gender stereotypes. When someone tells you are being sexist, view it as a call for you to better yourself by becoming less sexist. That is a good thing—and it’s something you should want too! Try to be introspective rather than defensive.


I kinda like this part better myself:

Am I saying you need to accept someone else’s judgement on whether a statement or action was sexist whether what they say makes sense or not? No. I identify as a feminist, but that doesn’t mean I always agree with everything each feminist says. That’s as it should be—to quote blogger Tavi Gevison, I see feminism as “not a rulebook but a discussion, a conversation, a process.” Sometimes it is helpful to move the frame away from “you should want to know why what you said was sexist” to “you should want to hear why someone views what you said as sexist.” With this framing, even if we ultimately disagree over whether something is sexist or not, we have still learned something.


Unfortunately, it seems that in my attempt to argue my point, I am being told that I'm being defensive, rather than being seen as trying to engage in discussion. We've already made it past the part of the discussion where everyone has filled me in on why they view what I said was sexist. The problem, if you can see my view of it, is that I am going to walk away from the discussion with the impression that, as was mentioned previously, people are quite quick to label, judge, and vilify any action or statement they disagree with, with complete disregard to approach. Most certainly I can already predict that Мишель will continue to push and argue his view until either I submit to his thinking or give him the last word (as happened between us previously). Either way, the next time I see the sexist label thrown around so much, I will remember that something I said was labeled sexist too and I am going to associate it with false accusations. This will continue to lessen the impact of the cause as I'm sure I'm not alone in seeing it this way.

I still think that rather than being quick to label and judge me, there could have been a far better response to me that would not have resulted in this long and drawn out back-and-forth. I think I would have responded much better to something like "OzzFan, while it sounded like you were trying to tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies, I am happy to hear that you support feminists in rejecting a societal view that women need larger breasts to look beautiful."
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Message 1683762 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 17:57:29 UTC - in response to Message 1683758.  

...

I still think that rather than being quick to label and judge me, there could have been a far better response to me that would not have resulted in this long and drawn out back-and-forth. I think I would have responded much better to something like "OzzFan, while it sounded like you were trying to tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies, I am happy to hear that you support feminists in rejecting a societal view that women need larger breasts to look beautiful."

You are being defensive. Everyone has acknowledged that you probably didn't mean it that way, but you haven't heard that and keep going on about how you've been labelled. Everyone has pointed out it was what you wrote that was labelled, not you.
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Message 1683764 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 18:05:50 UTC

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Message 1683765 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 18:09:41 UTC - in response to Message 1683748.  

Then judge me according to stating my opinion, not on fore-knowledge of my sex, and that I happen to be male commenting on something people do.

Yes, but the combination of you being male and stating this particular opinion makes it sexist.


And that is where I believe you are wrong to use the label.

Not entirely. By those statements, I am calling into question who it is that actually likes this kind of thing.

You probably know well enough that you and your friends view on boob jobs represents nothing more than the view of you and your friends. Its an ineffective way of calling into question who actually likes this type of plastic surgery.


Firstly, I didn't state 'me and my friends'. I think it is important to note that I have had this discussion with far more than just friends. Secondly, perhaps it wasn't as effective as I had hoped, but I chose that route nonetheless because I still don't know anyone that it appeals to.

I state many other opinions with similar passion. It still should not be read into any more than me stating my opinion.

You call it passion, but it reads and sounds like an order. Just so you know for future reference.


Unfortunately at this point, based upon who is telling me how it reads, I am unlikely to take the lesson to heart and learn from it.

Again, no. That link is upon the reader and not the writer. This is the point where people should have seized upon the intent of the statement rather than their interpretation of the statement.

Then as writer you did a poor job of conveying your intent in your message.


And as a reader you did a poor job of engaging in discussion to determine what a poor writer is trying to say.

Are you telling me there really is another reason? ...

I've met a few women who were considering it because they were unhappy with the size and shape of their breasts. It is difficult however, to see how much of that unhappiness is caused because they felt their breast size didn't appeal enough to men. It certainly was not the outward primary reason, but it could have contributed on a unconscious level. The question is, how do you measure that?


By asking the obvious question would they still do it if society didn't place so much emphasis on size and shapes of breasts.

... I guess you are. Surely you know the reason why they're unhappy or insecure is because society tells them that men like women with big(er) breasts. Surely you know how this is ingrained sexism pervasive in our society telling women how they should look to be attractive, and not because of some inherent unhappiness or insecurity for any other reason.

How do you know what the motivations of the people that want a boob job are? You assume their is only one reason and that is because they do it to please someone else. I doubt that the reason why people get plastic surgery can be boiled down to this one simple argument. Nothing is ever that simple.


I never said I assumed only a singular reason. What I have done is point out that most reasons seem to revolve around society's expectations of how women should look, and when women feel that don't match up to that ideal, they want to change their bodies to look better.

Yes, I'm OK with removing all that too. I am not saying that so that I can control what beauty is. I am of that opinion because I don't think women should have to put themselves through all that just to look good to the broader society.

Of course no one should have to. But there are plenty of people that want to. Besides, those things can also be used to achieve a different, unorthodox beauty standard. Various sub cultures include the heavy use of make up, corrective surgery or other types of body modification to achieve their ideal image. Personally I love the goth look, but the women that go for it can hardly be accused of trying to appease the mainstream beauty type now do they?


I somehow knew that if I didn't properly address your generalization and lumping of all things body-modification, you would attempt to use an argument such as this. Obviously what you are talking about here is not something I object to, and is outside the scope of what my argument is. At least, it should have been obvious based upon the original comment and my somewhat flippant response.

It would have also been a safe generalization to assume that since my namesake is OzzFan, indicating that I am into heavy metal, and have previously stated an affinity for counter-culture, that I would celebrate all things unorthodox. Yet somehow, here in this discussion, it was automatically assumed about me that I am against these things as well. Then I am quickly blamed for these automatic assumptions simply because I allegedly stated my part poorly - and all this was based upon a singular, off-handed comment.

And here is where people have read far too much into the comment that was never there. But it sure does make for great rhetoric in a discussion.

Its what you get for stating your opinion as an absolute.


If what I get for stating my opinion are flimsy, counter-arguments outside of the scope of my original statement, I'm going to say this is more reflective of those responding than it is on my statement itself.

The alternative conclusion is that I actually agree with those feminists who complain about this exact topic. But it seems to come down to knowledge of me being male that seems to have prevent people from seeing anything else other than a man telling women what they should do.

No, the problem here is that you are saying you would deny women the choice to decide for themselves if they want to modify their body in a particular way.


No. Absolutely not. You are overstating my opinion, then restating what you have read into my opinion as something I have said. I would never take away the choice for any women, or man, to do what they please with their bodies.

Oh sure, technically you say that women may choose, but when they choose something that is not your choice, you end up looking down on them because they enable oppression or something. Feminists who argue the same, and also want to deny women the choice, or who look down upon others for choosing differently, well I disagree with them as well.


Again, you are overstating my opinion, and it's comments like these that tend to make the discussion go south. I absolutely do not look down upon women who choose to get breast implants. I wish you would set aside your own bias and prejudices toward similarities you see between what I am stating and what you have encountered in the past, then automatically lump me in with those attitudes while blaming me for your misconceptions. I notice you tend to do the same toward Atheism as well.
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Message 1683766 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 18:15:31 UTC - in response to Message 1683762.  

...

I still think that rather than being quick to label and judge me, there could have been a far better response to me that would not have resulted in this long and drawn out back-and-forth. I think I would have responded much better to something like "OzzFan, while it sounded like you were trying to tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies, I am happy to hear that you support feminists in rejecting a societal view that women need larger breasts to look beautiful."

You are being defensive.


I suppose if you and others say so, it must be true.

Everyone has acknowledged that you probably didn't mean it that way, but you haven't heard that and keep going on about how you've been labelled. Everyone has pointed out it was what you wrote that was labelled, not you.


No, I heard it. What I am going on about is misuse of the label, and how doing so is alienating those that might otherwise agree with you.
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Message 1683767 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 18:22:26 UTC - in response to Message 1683757.  
Last modified: 24 May 2015, 18:27:35 UTC

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