Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking... (#3)

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Message 1683528 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 1:58:18 UTC - in response to Message 1683523.  
Last modified: 24 May 2015, 2:32:20 UTC

You are still telling women what they should and shouldn't do, that is sexist.

I think OzzFan's only lapse in judgement was in not parsing his statement to include men in his "Don't do this".


It wasn't a lapse in judgment. Men simply weren't the topic. They could have simply asked if I felt the same way about men doing this too before throwing the 'sexist' label at me. But yes, the same logic applies to men as well - and there are men that get 'pectoral' implants. (Funny how they are boobs to women but pecs to men.)

It was more than obvious he meant that cosmetic plastic surgery was a band-aid, and not a solution, to low self esteem.


Thanks. But more than that, I was hoping my comment would shed light on why people want to do this to themselves anyway. Why people - men and women - want to fit some idealized version of themselves that they think will look better to society - and yes, by proxy they will feel better about themselves for fitting what they think is society's idea of beauty, rather than teaching people to be OK with who they are and what they look like.

While I understand that my definition of feminism and other's may not match up, I still support many of the ideals they espouse about women's rights and fair treatment toward women.

It's getting to be ridiculous how often the invective of "Sexist" gets thrown around on this forum.


Indeed. And I suspect it hurts the cause more than it helps.
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Message 1683536 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 3:07:04 UTC - in response to Message 1683528.  

...

Indeed. And I suspect it hurts the cause more than it helps.

Yes, when will us women learn that there is a right way and a wrong way to be a feminist.
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Message 1683537 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 3:08:05 UTC - in response to Message 1683523.  

You are still telling women what they should and shouldn't do, that is sexist.

I think OzzFan's only lapse in judgement was in not parsing his statement to include men in his "Don't do this".
It was more than obvious he meant that cosmetic plastic surgery was a band-aid, and not a solution, to low self esteem.
It's getting to be ridiculous how often the invective of "Sexist" gets thrown around on this forum.
If Emma Watson is an example of a fourth wave feminist, I'll look forward to the fifth and sixth wave.
Society may be moving in the right direction.

I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please, even if Ozzfan doesn't find it attractive.
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Message 1683539 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 3:22:53 UTC - in response to Message 1683537.  

I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please, even if Ozzfan doesn't find it attractive.

Who are they asking permission from?
Who allows?
I've always thought that women "do as they damn well please". No permission needed.
In 40+ years in the work force women have always had pay equity.
Is that a chip on your shoulder?
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Message 1683541 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 3:35:32 UTC - in response to Message 1683539.  

I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please, even if Ozzfan doesn't find it attractive.

Who are they asking permission from?
Who allows?


Ozzfan wrote:
I hate fake boobs. I don't understand if this is really a thing men supposedly like as nearly everyone I talk to doesn't like them either. Women should stop doing this and most other cosmetic surgery immediately!

and it really reads like he is ordering women what to do because he doesn't approve. That's what it looks like, anyway.
I've always thought that women "do as they damn well please". No permission needed.
In 40+ years in the work force women have always had pay equity.

What world do you live in?

Is that a chip on your shoulder?

If it is, I've come by it honestly.

It does seem really hard for some men to get out of the habit of telling women what they should and shouldn't do. Whether it be how to look, or how to express their opinions.

It is so ingrained that you don't realise that is what you are doing, and that when confronted you accuse us of 'having chips on our shoulders".
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Message 1683561 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 4:23:37 UTC - in response to Message 1683541.  

In 40+ years in the work force women have always had pay equity.
What world do you live in?
Is that a chip on your shoulder?

If it is, I've come by it honestly.
It does seem really hard for some men to get out of the habit of telling women what they should and shouldn't do. Whether it be how to look, or how to express their opinions.
It is so ingrained that you don't realise that is what you are doing, and that when confronted you accuse us of 'having chips on our shoulders".

Having always worked in a unionised shop pay equity was the norm.
The pay equity gap, for me, is a statistical data point.
A data point that hopefully disappears soon.
I imagine that 9+ years of living with a psychopath, and compulsive liar, might have affected you in some way.
Everyone has chips on their shoulders, and is better for knowing it.
It's always something, men do this, women do that, and it never stops.
Often it's not what is said, but how it's perceived.
I have watched Emma Watson's UN speech several times, and suspect that a less adversarial tactic might reap greater benefit for both women and men.
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Message 1683565 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 4:33:08 UTC - in response to Message 1683536.  

...

Indeed. And I suspect it hurts the cause more than it helps.

Yes, when will us women learn that there is a right way and a wrong way to be a feminist.


Yes, clearly that's what I was saying.
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Message 1683569 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 4:36:47 UTC - in response to Message 1683537.  

I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please, even if Ozzfan doesn't find it attractive.


Of course they can. Why would anyone think otherwise?
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Message 1683574 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 4:45:03 UTC - in response to Message 1683541.  

I think women should be allowed to do as they damm well please, even if Ozzfan doesn't find it attractive.

Who are they asking permission from?
Who allows?


Ozzfan wrote:
I hate fake boobs. I don't understand if this is really a thing men supposedly like as nearly everyone I talk to doesn't like them either. Women should stop doing this and most other cosmetic surgery immediately!

and it really reads like he is ordering women what to do because he doesn't approve. That's what it looks like, anyway.


That's certainly one way to read it. I think it is a dangerous inference to suggest an opinion is an 'order'.
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Message 1683580 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 4:57:57 UTC - in response to Message 1683295.  

I hate fake boobs. I don't understand if this is really a thing men supposedly like as nearly everyone I talk to doesn't like them either. Women should stop doing this and most other cosmetic surgery immediately!

Right, so the guys you talk to don't like boob jobs so women should be stop having cosmetic surgery in order to stop offending your male sense of taste? I hope you realize how incredibly sexist that is.

Its been noted that cosmetic surgery can have a very positive effect on a person's sense of self worth.

Boob jobs can have a very positive effect on the pocket book [of a stripper]
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Message 1683581 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 4:58:09 UTC - in response to Message 1683561.  

..
Having always worked in a unionised shop pay equity was the norm.
The pay equity gap, for me, is a statistical data point.
A data point that hopefully disappears soon.

The statistical data point you speak of has complicated causes. Having had to fight for the right to respected for all my careers (I've had more than one) as someone who needed part-time hours or who couldn't put in lots of overtime etc because of child care responsibilities, I am very, very aware of the artificial barriers placed in my path to career progression. It has been a long time source of frustration for me and not merely a curious statistical anomaly. It made a difference to whether I could afford to put food on the table.
I imagine that 9+ years of living with a psychopath, and compulsive liar, might have affected you in some way.

Its taught me about myself and made me really appreciate good men, if that's what you mean. There is nothing like coming out of a relationship like that and discovering just how lovely some men can be in comparison.
Everyone has chips on their shoulders, and is better for knowing it.
It's always something, men do this, women do that, and it never stops.

Which is why you will have noticed that I always make sure to put qualifiers and not generalise about all men. You noticed that right? You noticed that I am very clearly to keep my comments about some men or the patriarchal structure of society. You totally noticed that I am only talking about certain attitudes and have always made it clear that I am not talking about all men.
If you didn't notice that, then perhaps you need to check your assumptions, because I am very careful about that.
Often it's not what is said, but how it's perceived.

I am completely and thoroughly aware that a lot of the time it will perceived through a filter of bias. I am very aware that this filter is so pervasive that a lot of the time the people perceiving it are totally unaware of what they are doing.

I have watched Emma Watson's UN speech several times, and suspect that a less adversarial tactic might reap greater benefit for both women and men.

If you are talking about me, I am totally not adversarial, merely assertive. Your perception of the way I approach things might be coloured by your knowledge of my gender. I am also totally aware that if you and I sat down and had this conversation you would think I was a lovely person and quite as nice and non-adversarial as Emma Watson. However, we are having this conversation via text which means it is much easier for people to insert their biases and preconceptions into the conversation.

I am aware of this. I also am old enough to not care too much about. When I was younger it might have bothered me a lot to have so much projected onto me that simply isn't there.

However, in the words of Taylor Swift, Haters gonna hate.
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Message 1683582 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 4:59:27 UTC - in response to Message 1683348.  

Yes of course in the areas and provinces, women engineers were very few and far between, mainly because they generally didn't want to do that sort of job, not because they weren't allowed to.

And who the hell would want a job where they would be harassed every day because of their sex?
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Message 1683585 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 5:11:03 UTC - in response to Message 1683581.  

However, in the words of Taylor Swift, Haters gonna hate.

It does seem to be the distillate of much that occurs on the InterWeb.
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Message 1683586 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 5:17:27 UTC - in response to Message 1683581.  

I have watched Emma Watson's UN speech several times, and suspect that a less adversarial tactic might reap greater benefit for both women and men.

If you are talking about me, I am totally not adversarial, merely assertive.


I think you come off far more adversarial than you realize.

Your perception of the way I approach things might be coloured by your knowledge of my gender.


It also may have nothing to do with it, but by throwing this suggestion out there, you are now able to brush off how people are trying to communicate something to you, namely that you and others tend to attack people who might well be allies to your cause if you didn't carelessly throw around a pejorative label.

I am also totally aware that if you and I sat down and had this conversation you would think I was a lovely person and quite as nice and non-adversarial as Emma Watson.


Until that actually happens, this comes across as you re-asserting that your approach isn't the problem; everyone else is.

However, we are having this conversation via text which means it is much easier for people to insert their biases and preconceptions into the conversation.


This, of course, applies to you as well.

I am aware of this. I also am old enough to not care too much about. When I was younger it might have bothered me a lot to have so much projected onto me that simply isn't there.


Is it really fair then, for you and others to project so much onto others that simply isn't there?

However, in the words of Taylor Swift, Haters gonna hate.


Funny that. The perception you're giving off to nearly everyone in this thread is that of a hater. I was largely staying out of this thread so as to simply read and learn. But now that I've had the big S thrown at me, and no reason to believe my opinion was wrong to openly state, I guess the learning about feminism stops here.
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Message 1683592 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 5:38:19 UTC - in response to Message 1683586.  

I have watched Emma Watson's UN speech several times, and suspect that a less adversarial tactic might reap greater benefit for both women and men.

If you are talking about me, I am totally not adversarial, merely assertive.


I think you come off far more adversarial than you realize.

I'd say as adversarial as a "slick butch lawyeress"

Your perception of the way I approach things might be coloured by your knowledge of my gender.


It also may have nothing to do with it, but by throwing this suggestion out there, you are now able to brush off how people are trying to communicate something to you, namely that you and others tend to attack people who might well be allies to your cause if you didn't carelessly throw around a pejorative label.

I am also totally aware that if you and I sat down and had this conversation you would think I was a lovely person and quite as nice and non-adversarial as Emma Watson.


Until that actually happens, this comes across as you re-asserting that your approach isn't the problem; everyone else is.

However, we are having this conversation via text which means it is much easier for people to insert their biases and preconceptions into the conversation.


This, of course, applies to you as well.

I am aware of this. I also am old enough to not care too much about. When I was younger it might have bothered me a lot to have so much projected onto me that simply isn't there.


Is it really fair then, for you and others to project so much onto others that simply isn't there?

However, in the words of Taylor Swift, Haters gonna hate.


Funny that. The perception you're giving off to nearly everyone in this thread is that of a hater. I was largely staying out of this thread so as to simply read and learn. But now that I've had the big S thrown at me, and no reason to believe my opinion was wrong to openly state, I guess the learning about feminism stops here.

+1
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Message 1683605 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 6:27:11 UTC - in response to Message 1683586.  



I think you come off far more adversarial than you realize.

No, I am aware. I am also aware that many others here are just as adversarial and I don't think being otherwise would be a good idea on this forum.



It also may have nothing to do with it, but by throwing this suggestion out there, you are now able to brush off how people are trying to communicate something to you, namely that you and others tend to attack people who might well be allies to your cause if you didn't carelessly throw around a pejorative label.

Except I did not call you sexist. I implied indirectly that your comment could be seen that way. Yet I have not called you sexist. Why do you think I have?


Until that actually happens, this comes across as you re-asserting that your approach isn't the problem; everyone else is.

In your opinion. You do not speak for everyone.

This, of course, applies to you as well.

Of course, which is why I am careful what I write. However, none of the criticisms you have aimed at me have been about what I have actually written. Its all about how you feel about what I have written.

Is it really fair then, for you and others to project so much onto others that simply isn't there?

Every point I have made here has been based on evidence and academic studies. I have made nothing up and none of it is my own sole opinion. I have used personal examples to humanise the experiences we are discussing, but by no means are my points based solely on that experience.

Funny that. The perception you're giving off to nearly everyone in this thread is that of a hater.

This is your feeling. You also do not speak for nearly everyone in this thread.

I was largely staying out of this thread so as to simply read and learn. But now that I've had the big S thrown at me, and no reason to believe my opinion was wrong to openly state, I guess the learning about feminism stops here.

Some one in this thread pointed out that your demand that women behave in a certain way is sexist. It was not me that wrote that, yet it is me who you are now attacking. Two other people pointed it out you. One was not even female.

Telling women to behave in a certain way is sexist, even you reasons were not. One does not cure sexism with more sexism.
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Message 1683606 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 6:29:52 UTC - in response to Message 1683592.  

I'd say as adversarial as a "slick butch lawyeress"

We have much in common then.
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Message 1683607 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 6:30:04 UTC

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Message 1683612 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 6:56:50 UTC - in response to Message 1683605.  
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It also may have nothing to do with it, but by throwing this suggestion out there, you are now able to brush off how people are trying to communicate something to you, namely that you and others tend to attack people who might well be allies to your cause if you didn't carelessly throw around a pejorative label.

Except I did not call you sexist. I implied indirectly that your comment could be seen that way. Yet I have not called you sexist. Why do you think I have?


I never said you called me a sexist, nor did I define my specific engagement with you as such. My specific allegation toward you was supporting the attacking position. I never said you, specifically, called me a sexist.

Until that actually happens, this comes across as you re-asserting that your approach isn't the problem; everyone else is.

In your opinion. You do not speak for everyone.


But of course. I wasn't aware that my statements were supposed to be a voice for everyone. Rather, my point was that I think you were giving yourself an 'out' so you didn't have to address the criticisms of your approach.

This, of course, applies to you as well.

Of course, which is why I am careful what I write. However, none of the criticisms you have aimed at me have been about what I have actually written. Its all about how you feel about what I have written.


Not at all. Though above you did misstate what it was that you think I am accusing you of, and that is highlighted here in that you are trying to put it all off to my feelings rather than understand the problem.

Is it really fair then, for you and others to project so much onto others that simply isn't there?

Every point I have made here has been based on evidence and academic studies. I have made nothing up and none of it is my own sole opinion. I have used personal examples to humanise the experiences we are discussing, but by no means are my points based solely on that experience.


And I called none of that into question. What I have called into question is the fact that you seemed to support the projection of me as a sexist (note I did not say that you actually called me one) based solely on my offering a personal opinion and that I happen to be a male giving an opinion on female boob jobs, as if my sex negates my ability to have an opinion. I then correlate my experience with what I've seen others here say and can't help but wonder if you've done the same to them.

Funny that. The perception you're giving off to nearly everyone in this thread is that of a hater.

This is your feeling. You also do not speak for nearly everyone in this thread.


No, it is not a feeling, it is an observation, and one I thought I'd share because I'm trying to give you feedback on how you come across.

I was largely staying out of this thread so as to simply read and learn. But now that I've had the big S thrown at me, and no reason to believe my opinion was wrong to openly state, I guess the learning about feminism stops here.

Some one in this thread pointed out that your demand that women behave in a certain way is sexist.


You give me far too much power if you think it was a demand.

It was not me that wrote that, yet it is me who you are now attacking. Two other people pointed it out you. One was not even female.


And I appropriately addressed both of those people. You joined in on giving your view by stating I came across a certain way. So now I am engaging you and sharing how you come across, but you want to reduce it all to my 'feelings'.

Telling women to behave in a certain way is sexist, even you reasons were not. One does not cure sexism with more sexism.


And here it is again: seizing upon the sexual nature of the comments; that I happen to be a male giving an opinion on something females (and males) do, despite that I would and have done the same to men seems to suggest a bias you cannot get past. You refuse to see me as a human giving an opinion on what another human does to themselves. You see me as a man ordering around women and you put a pejorative label on it. This label is alienating toward your cause.

People have opinions. People have opinions about each other. People have opinions about the opposite sex, including yourself. Not all opinions about the opposite sex are sexist by necessity.
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Message 1683613 - Posted: 24 May 2015, 7:03:28 UTC

It has come to my attention that there is a perception that I somehow dominate this thread, and because I didn't have anything better to do I thought I would check if that was true.



This chart is a breakdown of all the posts and who they are made by. As you can see there is some argument that I do 'dominate' This thread, although only slightly more than the next two prolific posters.

Bearing in mind that this is not only a topic I feel passionately about, it also happens to be one I am pretty knowledgeable about. So it does not seem unreasonable that I would want to post here.

So I also highlighted the genders of the posters. Those identifying as female I have highlighted in pink. So it is clear that the range of female viewpoint is not properly represented in this thread. Of the females that have posted here, 2 have strongly agreed with me and one has kept her views to herself.

Of the male participants, there is a range of those who support my views and those who do not. However, it is very clear that the male viewpoint is dominant in this thread and that no matter how hard I try, I cannot adjust that balance on my own.

So please bear in mind, that despite your perception, my voice is by no means the dominant voice in this thread and I will keep on trying to compensate for that imbalance as much as possible.

I make absolutely no apologies for doing so.
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