Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking... (#3)

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Message 1672287 - Posted: 30 Apr 2015, 22:27:14 UTC
Last modified: 30 Apr 2015, 22:36:11 UTC

Continued from:

Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking... (#2)


Why about women rather than about all humans?...

There's a human thread started up just for that. The emphasis on women here stems from a series a stark news items about the persecution of women and the seeming local indifference to the atrocities due to the women not being valued, or worse...


Even here in our supposedly enlightened 'developed world', our media and stereotypes treat women badly.

More positive development needed? How best to do that??...

At least progress has been made since the days of USA slavery and the UK Suffragettes...



All in our only one world,
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Message 1672297 - Posted: 30 Apr 2015, 23:02:55 UTC
Last modified: 30 Apr 2015, 23:07:24 UTC

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=76273

Malala Yousafzai. Nobel Peace Prize lauriate 2014.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malala_Yousafzai
She had a VERY moving speech in Oslo.
She really stands up for Young females to get an education.
Hats off.
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Message 1672791 - Posted: 1 May 2015, 21:51:23 UTC

I haven't been able to reply for a few days so I will try to make a few points about what has been said:

Simonator Wrote:
No it wasn't.
You're the one who made the argument that sex was all about asserting dominance not me.

Simonator. I have nowhere said that sex was all about asserting dominance. What a strange thing to accuse me of. I said that wolf-whistling was a way of using sex to assert dominance. I have said that most porn is about asserting dominance over women and has very little to do with real actual healthy relations between a man and a women.

@Glen, you have made a lot of points that I would love to discuss, but it will have to wait until I have more time to attend them properly.

....as to pretty much all of Chris' posts, I think this quote shows how fundamentally he has missed the point:
Yes of course, we all have, what's wrong with that? It's escapism, doesn't always happen in real life. I'd love to be a medieval knight rescuing the princess locked in the tower by her evil uncle :))


Not the character Chris has identified with. The hero who gets to rescue the princess. It is easy for Chris to understand that this is the role he plays. Its a great role. Its a fun role. The role is created with Chris in mind, of course thinks its great. So here is the real question, would Chris love to be a the princess locked in the tower by her evil uncle waiting to be rescued by a medieval knight?
Chris did not say that. He clearly did not want to play the role assigned to the female. If its so great, why doesn't Chris say so and think its fun? Why didn't Chris even notice that the women he was rescuing was a person and might have some feelings about being assigned the role of being a princess waiting to be rescued? It didn't even register to Chris that the role of princess is one given to actual people, people who might think its a horrible role. She was invisible to Chris and it was all about Chris being the hero. This is the very reason Chris often comes across as sexist, its because he cannot imagine being anyone else but Chris.

Regarding the Bond Girls: anyone who thinks these are characters who have motivations beyond their relationships to the men in the movie have absolutely no idea about women and what motivates us. The bond movies are ridiculous and to be honest both the male and female characters are 2 dimensional at best.

So when as a child I looked out the world and asked the question that all little girls ask "what is my place in the world and what should I be?" I was sorely disappointed at the answer.

I had to wait until Buffy the Vampire Slayer to see the first female action hero who was motivated by real things and had agency over her actions. I wish she'd been on TV when I was a little girl and I wouldn't have had to pretend to be Bodie or Doyle from The Professionals to actually get to do something that mattered.

So next time you see a female character in a tv show or movie, ask yourself these questions:

*Does she have a role in the movie beyond giving motivation to a hero (usually the hero has to save her, or avenge her for something bad that happened)?
*Are all her motivations solely in relation to the men in the movie?
*Does she even talk to other women in the movie about anything but the men in the movie?
*Does she do anything in the movie that couldn't be done just as well by a pot of geraniums? (you'd be surprised how easy it is to replace many female characters with a pot of pretty flowers)
*Is she being used a reward for something the hero has done?

Just try to remember that women are usually motivated by the same feelings and thoughts as men, so if you can't imagine yourself in her role, then she probably isn't a very well fleshed out human character.
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Message 1672793 - Posted: 1 May 2015, 21:55:23 UTC - in response to Message 1672791.  

Regarding the Bond Girls: anyone who thinks these are characters who have motivations beyond their relationships to the men in the movie have absolutely no idea about women and what motivates us.

This comes to mind.
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Message 1672962 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 9:16:27 UTC - in response to Message 1672791.  
Last modified: 2 May 2015, 9:34:10 UTC

@Janne - brave man!

@ Es99 - Well well, what an interesting read!

Not(e)? the character Chris has identified with. The hero who gets to rescue the princess. It is easy for Chris to understand that this is the role he plays. Its a great role. Its a fun role. The role is created with Chris in mind, of course (he) thinks its great.

Yep, I bet Sir Lancelot had a great time back in those days! Mind you Robin Hood wasn't bad, got to do a lot of good and ended up with Marian. But these are all fantasy heroes and and a bit of escapism, nobody takes any of it seriously. Certainly it's the same with the Bond movies, it's sheer escapism, entertainment, bit of fun. What annoyed me was the suggestion that not only were the characters 2 dimensional but also the actresses that played them were as well.

So here is the real question, would Chris love to be a the princess locked in the tower by her evil uncle waiting to be rescued by a medieval knight? If its so great, why doesn't Chris say so and think its fun? Why didn't Chris even notice that the women he was rescuing was a person and might have some feelings about being assigned the role of being a princess waiting to be rescued?

We are being an armchair shrink today. Bearing in mind that princesses locked in towers are fantasy fairy stories, of course it can be safely assumed that the princess was not very happy at being locked in there by an evil relative, and probably thought her only salvation was to be rescued by a hero. So are you saying that all young children are not allowed to read stories like this without being firmly told that they must put themselves in the place of the Princess and imagine her suffering? Isn't that destroying the innocence of childhood? Perhaps of course she was quite happy doing her needlework and reading, and the last thing she wanted was some fat sweaty bloke on a nag dragging her off from her genteel existence?

It didn't even register to Chris that the role of princess is one given to actual people, people who might think its a horrible role. She was invisible to Chris and it was all about Chris being the hero. This is the very reason Chris often comes across as sexist

He tries at times to mean well, but the poor dear can't help it, he's only a man, us girls have to pity him really don't we?

its because he cannot imagine being anyone else but Chris.

No I can't, and that says to me that I am a well balanced person with my feet on the ground, I know who and what I am, I am happy with me, and have my own self respect. I'm not eternally searching for a "role" to play, neither a "place" in life, nor some nirvana I might never achieve. I am basically happy being me. How many people can honestly say that?

So when as a child I looked out the world and asked the question that all little girls ask "what is my place in the world and what should I be?" I was sorely disappointed at the answer.

OK my turn to be an armchair shrink. At what age was this "little girl" asking that question? 5-9 years old? Isn't it rather unusual for someone so young to question their very reason for being? Were you unhappy with your life that you needed a role or place to make it all worthwhile? When we are older we all look up at the stars on a clear night and think, what's it all about, why are we here? That's a different matter.

OK so you found out that the world was slewed against women, and you didn't fancy being part of all that. Fair enough. As you say there was Buffy, how about Cathy Gale in the Avengers? She saved Steed more than once. You mentioned Bodie & Doyle in the Professionals, how about the Persuaders, or the Sweeney. How about Hart to to Hart, did you approve of that? No doubt you hated I Love Lucy, one of the most popular shows ever. How about Goldie Hawn in Private Benjamin?

Does she do anything in the movie that couldn't be done just as well by a pot of geraniums?

Is that insulting to geraniums? Come on guys Geraniums are being discriminated against, Not fair!!

No doubt I'll get another reply accusing me of insulting you yet again.

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Message 1672982 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 10:13:35 UTC - in response to Message 1672962.  

What annoyed me was the suggestion that not only were the characters 2 dimensional but also the actresses that played them were as well.

Me too. If we take the Swedish Bond girls for instance.
Maud Adams and Izabella Scorupco are very clever in real life.
Britt Ekland. Well, thats another story:)
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Message 1672988 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 10:21:02 UTC
Last modified: 2 May 2015, 10:29:59 UTC

[Francis Urquhart voice on]

You might very well think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

[Francis Urquhart voice off]
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Message 1673012 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 12:13:25 UTC - in response to Message 1672962.  

What annoyed me was the suggestion that not only were the characters 2 dimensional but also the actresses that played them were as well.

Where did you get suggestion from? I certainly never argued anything like that.
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Message 1673015 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 12:17:57 UTC - in response to Message 1673012.  

Name one Bond girl that has a well developed personality. Because all I can remember are women with the personality of cardboard cut outs.

If you meant the characters I think you were wrong, if you meant the actresses you were doubly wrong.
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Message 1673029 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 14:17:23 UTC

How Many Knights or 'Other' 'Hero' Types Died, attempting to 'Save' The 'Imprisoned' 'Lady'? Ten, One Hundred?

Finally Rescued, did 'She' have 'Memorials' for All Dead Knights and Heroes?

Bodies Piled Up during These 'Rescues'.

Did All The 'Princesses' Care? Remember? Or Did 'they' Go On with 'Their' 'Privileged' 'Life', with Nary A Thought to All The 'Deaths', 'Injuries' and 'Ruined' Lives?

Yep


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Message 1673066 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 15:47:52 UTC

Shrek Movies anyone?
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Message 1673074 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 16:27:38 UTC - in response to Message 1672962.  

...
We are being an armchair shrink today. Bearing in mind that princesses locked in towers are fantasy fairy stories, of course it can be safely assumed that the princess was not very happy at being locked in there by an evil relative, and probably thought her only salvation was to be rescued by a hero. So are you saying that all young children are not allowed to read stories like this without being firmly told that they must put themselves in the place of the Princess and imagine her suffering? Isn't that destroying the innocence of childhood? Perhaps of course she was quite happy doing her needlework and reading, and the last thing she wanted was some fat sweaty bloke on a nag dragging her off from her genteel existence?

Chris, your ability to miss the point never fails to astound me. You really are totally incapable of putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

Seeing as you are being the amateur psychologist I suggest you go and read some psychology about how we construct our identities as we grow up. Then your response might not be so silly.


No I can't, and that says to me that I am a well balanced person with my feet on the ground, I know who and what I am, I am happy with me, and have my own self respect. I'm not eternally searching for a "role" to play, neither a "place" in life, nor some nirvana I might never achieve. I am basically happy being me. How many people can honestly say that?

Only narrow minded people who live in a bubble and don't understand that they live in a world that gives them certain privileges because of their colour and gender. This conversation with you has been most enlightening, I have to say.


OK my turn to be an armchair shrink. At what age was this "little girl" asking that question? 5-9 years old? Isn't it rather unusual for someone so young to question their very reason for being?

Considering that you think this is strange, I can only say that a was very smart, self-aware girl. Are you telling me that at no point in your life were you trying to figure the world out and your place in it? Most people do this unconsciously, so are vulnerable accepting society's messages about what it is to be a girl or boy without questioning those messages and their validity. Yes, I am aware that I am smarter than the average bear, and I am aware that this is not necessarily a gift, I have often thought that ignorance is bliss. You might want to take that on board with reference to your earlier assertion that you are somehow well adjusted simply because you are oblivious to what has shaped you.


Were you unhappy with your life that you needed a role or place to make it all worthwhile? When we are older we all look up at the stars on a clear night and think, what's it all about, why are we here? That's a different matter.

I don't remember writing that I was unhappy with my life. I was unhappy with the choices that were presented to me. You were clearly happy with the choices that were presented to you. I am not sure how you are not getting this.

OK so you found out that the world was slewed against women, and you didn't fancy being part of all that. Fair enough. As you say there was Buffy, how about Cathy Gale in the Avengers? She saved Steed more than once. You mentioned Bodie & Doyle in the Professionals, how about the Persuaders, or the Sweeney. How about Hart to to Hart, did you approve of that? No doubt you hated I Love Lucy, one of the most popular shows ever.
How about Goldie Hawn in Private Benjamin?

Some of those are before my time, I did enjoy Heart to Heart, but I bet if I watched it now, despite its efforts, I'd wager its full of casual sexism. I seem to remember that she really was the supporting character.

As to I love Lucy and Private Benjamin. Are you suggesting that 'ditzy' is something girls should aspire to? Really?
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Message 1673077 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 16:40:27 UTC

An absolutely cracking post from you which will get a good reply! But not tonight, been a long day, I'll get back tomorrow.
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Message 1673082 - Posted: 2 May 2015, 16:57:00 UTC - in response to Message 1673066.  

Shrek Movies anyone?

Chris Handsome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhLWf6rYyPs
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Message 1673358 - Posted: 3 May 2015, 14:28:22 UTC

Chris, your ability to miss the point never fails to astound me. You really are totally incapable of putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

In your personal opinion. No I don't indentify with characters in fairy stories, I'll leave that to others that feel the need to.

Seeing as you are being the amateur psychologist I suggest you go and read some psychology about how we construct our identities as we grow up. Then your response might not be so silly.

Again in your personal opinion. I haven't got time to read up in psychology, and no particular interest in doing so. As a teacher you may have to, that is accepted.

Only narrow minded people who live in a bubble and don't understand that they live in a world that gives them certain privileges because of their colour and gender. This conversation with you has been most enlightening, I have to say.

And with you as well. Glad you have also been educated. You might be aiming to pick a fight with me, sorry not obliging.

Considering that you think this is strange, I can only say that a was very smart, self-aware girl.

No doubt your school reports agreed.

Are you telling me that at no point in your life were you trying to figure the world out and your place in it?

Nope. I had better things to do. Who am I to try to try to figure the world out? People like Plato, Aristotle, Socrates didn't seem to get very far, why should I have kidded myself that I would? Oh but sorry, I wasn't as smart as you. So my place was just happy being a mechanical engineer that gave me a lot of pleasure and job satisfaction anyway. And yes, I was very good at it.

Most people do this unconsciously, so are vulnerable accepting society's messages about what it is to be a girl or boy without questioning those messages and their validity.

That statement is just an excuse to bang the drum for women's rights.

Yes, I am aware that I am smarter than the average bear, and I am aware that this is not necessarily a gift, I have often thought that ignorance is bliss.

No comment.

You might want to take that on board with reference to your earlier assertion that you are somehow well adjusted simply because you are oblivious to what has shaped you.

Whether I am happy in my life or not, just because you don't think I should be according to your beliefs, doesn't make me obliged to question it.

I don't remember writing that I was unhappy with my life. I was unhappy with the choices that were presented to me. You were clearly happy with the choices that were presented to you. I am not sure how you are not getting this.

Perhaps you were just a stroppy kid and I wasn't?

I've left the best to last.

Some of those are before my time, I did enjoy Heart to Heart, but I bet if I watched it now, despite its efforts, I'd wager its full of casual sexism.

That very adequately proves a point that I wanted to make. The Hart to Hart series starring Robert Wagner & Stephanie Powers was so popular simply because it featured a genuinely in love couple that were equals. And both surprised each other with gestures. One episode had them in London and he organised a happy birthday banner on Tower bridge. Wouldn't happen in real life, but it was TV.

Before you said that you enjoyed it, now you would seem to want to go to deliberately looking for things to back up your personal cause?

As to I love Lucy and Private Benjamin. Are you suggesting that 'ditzy' is something girls should aspire to? Really?

Lucy Arnaz nee Ball was a very astute business woman that made many millions "playing the part" of a "ditzy" female. She co-founded Desilu productions. If you have a bee in your bonnet about the sort of woman that she so cleverly portrayed that is your problem not mine. She is still respected in Hollywood across the board.

As for Private Benjamin, you obviously haven't seen it or read the synopsis, so here it is for you. Benjamin

Then, when she finds out Henri is still in love with his ex-girlfriend, Clare, and has cheated on her with their maid, she realizes that she is capable of doing whatever she wants, and that she does not need Henri in her life. She walks out on him at the altar to go and live her own life.

I would have thought that her character portrayal would have done a service to the ideals that you say you stand for.

Finally, when I first knew you in the UK, you had strong ideals on many issues but you also seemed not to be so bitter about everything. Since the time that you chose to emigrate to Canada, you seem to have become a very hardened person in your outlook. I can only put that down to being affected by the lifestyle and environment in Northern America. Perhaps you might have been better advised to have moved elsewhere in the UK.
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Message 1673430 - Posted: 3 May 2015, 16:28:30 UTC - in response to Message 1673358.  

In your personal opinion. No I don't indentify with characters in fairy stories, I'll leave that to others that feel the need to.

Everyone learns how to behave from the subtle and not so subtle cues society gives us. Just because you are not aware how you are shaped by fairy stories, the way men are represented on TV and the media, the way are parents model behaviour and so on, it does not been that these things have not affected you.

Again in your personal opinion. I haven't got time to read up in psychology, and no particular interest in doing so. As a teacher you may have to, that is accepted.

Yes I did. I learned how the human brain learns and grows. So I am telling you how that works and you can dismiss me because you don't like it, but it doesn't change the facts. It is a shame that for some reason your mind is so closed that you aren't willing to learn from me.

And with you as well. Glad you have also been educated. You might be aiming to pick a fight with me, sorry not obliging.

This is hilarious, simply because it has been apparent for a while that you have been trying to pick fights left, right and centre.

Nope. I had better things to do. Who am I to try to try to figure the world out? People like Plato, Aristotle, Socrates didn't seem to get very far, why should I have kidded myself that I would?

I'm going to phrase this as a statement this time because when I phrase it as a question in an attempt to get you think about it, you miss the point.

Every child, either consciously or unconsciously is figuring out their place in the world and how they should behave. This is basic human biology and survival. This is a fact. You learned how to be a male in your world and in your family from the multitude of cues that surrounded you from the day you were born.

Oh but sorry, I wasn't as smart as you. So my place was just happy being a mechanical engineer that gave me a lot of pleasure and job satisfaction anyway. And yes, I was very good at it.

I am sure a lot of women your age would have been good and happy at it too. However, a lot of them were actively discouraged from doing it from the day they were born. They were discouraged because they were told in many subtle ways that women don't do science and engineering. They were discouraged in literal ways by not being allowed to study it at school. So the fact that you would bring up how happy being an engineer in a thread about how women are controlled in this world is quite ironic.

That statement is just an excuse to bang the drum for women's rights.

Its also ironic that you so easily dismiss a statement of from a women who knows more on this subject than you as "banging a drum".

Whether I am happy in my life or not, just because you don't think I should be according to your beliefs, doesn't make me obliged to question it.

I have never said that you shouldn't be happy. I am saying that you were raised in a system that is set up in such a way that you are more likely to end up happy. Of course if you were a man who really loved children and wanted to stay home and raise a family while your wife worked as an engineer, then I don't think you would be so happy.

Perhaps you were just a stroppy kid and I wasn't?

Well you're making up for it in your old age.

I've left the best to last.

That very adequately proves a point that I wanted to make. The Hart to Hart series starring Robert Wagner & Stephanie Powers was so popular simply because it featured a genuinely in love couple that were equals. And both surprised each other with gestures. One episode had them in London and he organised a happy birthday banner on Tower bridge. Wouldn't happen in real life, but it was TV.

Again, if your one example is Heart to Heart, which I did watch as a kid and enjoy, out of all the many TV shows that were on at the time, it doesn't make your point at all. One TV show which isn't as bad as the others and still promotes the idea that a woman's happiness comes from having a good man rather than from within herself? It still doesn't compare to later TV shows.

Before you said that you enjoyed it, now you would seem to want to go to deliberately looking for things to back up your personal cause?

I think out of the two of us, you are the one with the personal cause. I am just trying to point something out to you that is very real, you are the one so invested in your personal world view that you refuse to see it.

Lucy Arnaz nee Ball was a very astute business woman that made many millions "playing the part" of a "ditzy" female. She co-founded Desilu productions. If you have a bee in your bonnet about the sort of woman that she so cleverly portrayed that is your problem not mine. She is still respected in Hollywood across the board.

If you think the character of I love Lucy was a good role model for girls and then use the phrase "bee in your bonnet" then you are deliberately to trying to provoke or you really are a hopeless cause.

As for Private Benjamin, you obviously haven't seen it or read the synopsis, so here it is for you.

How patronising of you. Can't you accept that I saw it several times and was not impressed?

Finally, when I first knew you in the UK, you had strong ideals on many issues but you also seemed not to be so bitter about everything.

hmmm.."bitter" another sexist code word for dismissing women who disagree with you.

Since the time that you chose to emigrate to Canada, you seem to have become a very hardened person in your outlook.

I can only put that down to being affected by the lifestyle and environment in Northern America. Perhaps you might have been better advised to have moved elsewhere in the UK.

Its such a good thing that I don't have to take advice from you then, isn't it?

You claim, from a few conversations and for what information I choose to reveal on message boards, to know me. Yet you ignore the facts that you do actually know about me.

You know that I am well educated and on this subject absolutely know what I am talking about. Many people can claim this on the internet, so I tend to allow for that when people refuse to take what I tell them on board, however, I see no reason to make that excuse for you. The fact is I do know better than you on this, and you, for whatever reason, are refusing to take this opportunity to become educated about something that you clearly know nothing about it.

Why do you dis-value my knowledge so much that you still think you know more than me on this subject? Is it because there is some, deep, inherent belief given to you somewhere in life, that despite everything, you think you are my better and I just have a "bee in my bonnet" and am "bitter"?

I would never presume to dismiss any claims you make about wiring in telephones. I would never insult you over what you say about how to wire in a telephone. As someone who you claim to know, I would expect the same respect back in terms of my field of expertise.
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Message 1673790 - Posted: 4 May 2015, 11:24:47 UTC - in response to Message 1673430.  

Everyone learns how to behave from the subtle and not so subtle cues society gives us. Just because you are not aware how you are shaped by fairy stories, the way men are represented on TV and the media, the way are parents model behaviour and so on, it does not been that these things have not affected you.

Accepted.

Yes I did. I learned how the human brain learns and grows. So I am telling you how that works and you can dismiss me because you don't like it, but it doesn't change the facts. It is a shame that for some reason your mind is so closed that you aren't willing to learn from me.

Perhaps it is the way you go about it.

This is hilarious, simply because it has been apparent for a while that you have been trying to pick fights left, right and centre.

Glad I have amused you. I will challenge those I disagree with yes, if you want to call it picking fights that is your choice of words not mine. In your case I go out of my way to avoid fighting with you, but there are times when you are like a dog with a bone it its teeth that just wont let go.

I'm going to phrase this as a statement this time because when I phrase it as a question in an attempt to get you think about it, you miss the point.

Please stop doing this, you are not my mum, and I am not your pupil in class.

Every child, either consciously or unconsciously is figuring out their place in the world and how they should behave. This is basic human biology and survival. This is a fact. You learned how to be a male in your world and in your family from the multitude of cues that surrounded you from the day you were born.

So sorry for being a worthless man.

I am sure a lot of women your age would have been good and happy at it too. However, a lot of them were actively discouraged from doing it from the day they were born. They were discouraged because they were told in many subtle ways that women don't do science and engineering. They were discouraged in literal ways by not being allowed to study it at school.

I entirely agree with you. But I am not about to accept a crown of thorns on MY head because of the rest of the worlds attitudes of the time. Have a pop at society and men in general. It is not my place to apologise of accept pennance for something that I personally had no control over. And I have absolutely no intention of doing so.

I have never said that you shouldn't be happy. I am saying that you were raised in a system that is set up in such a way that you are more likely to end up happy. Of course if you were a man who really loved children and wanted to stay home and raise a family while your wife worked as an engineer, then I don't think you would be so happy.

Red rag -----> Bull
Snort!!!

Unfortunately I have not been lucky enough to have had a relationsip that was able to produce children. But if my wife was a damn good engineer, then yes I might well have been happy letting her be the breadwinner, why not? What you will not have found is me in a pinny and feather duster when she came home, what you would have found is the dinner cooking.

Did you not have a view at one time that if two people want to eat, then two people should help to prepare it. If two people have made a mess, then two people should help to clear it up. When I suggested that wouldn't it be nice if the man said, a lovely dinner dear, thank you, put your feet up, I'll make you a cup of tea and do the washing up. Your response was, never ever in my world. Still think the same?

You agree that I am ALLOWED to be happy, but it is pretty clear that you don't LIKE me being happy, and that I think is your problem not mine.

Perhaps you were just a stroppy kid and I wasn't?
Well you're making up for it in your old age.

Firstly you didn't answer the question! Secondly yes I damn well am, you bet your sweet bibby! I have had many pm's the last 18 months asking why I don't stand up for myself? Why do I not give as good as I get? Why do I let myself get walked over? So I do listen to others opinions including yours.

Again, if your one example is Heart to Heart, which I did watch as a kid and enjoy, out of all the many TV shows that were on at the time, it doesn't make your point at all. One TV show which isn't as bad as the others and still promotes the idea that a woman's happiness comes from having a good man rather than from within herself? It still doesn't compare to later TV shows.

Sigh - do your homework please .....

Jonathan Hart (Robert Wagner) was a self-made millionaire and the CEO of Hart Industries, a Los Angeles-based global electronics conglomerate. His wife Jennifer (Stefanie Powers) was a beautiful freelance journalist. Living the jetset lifestyle, the glamorous couple spent their free time as amateur detectives and in every episode they found themselves involved in cases of smuggling, theft, international espionage, or most commonly, murder.

She had her own fulfilling career as well. She was not a dutiful housewife.

If you think the character of I love Lucy was a good role model for girls and then use the phrase "bee in your bonnet" then you are deliberately to trying to provoke or you really are a hopeless cause.

Everybody took it as a simple comedy show, with actresses playing parts. Nobody took as being offensive to women and being bad role models. Only you.

As for Private Benjamin, you obviously haven't seen it or read the synopsis, so here it is for you.

How patronising of you. Can't you accept that I saw it several times and was not impressed?

That is the first time you have mentioned that to my knowledge. In which case haven't you rather shot yourself in the foot? Shall I remind you?

Then, when she finds out Henri is still in love with his ex-girlfriend, Clare, and has cheated on her with their maid, she realizes that she is capable of doing whatever she wants, and that she does not need Henri in her life. She walks out on him at the altar to go and live her own life.

Isn't that how you want modern women to be?

Its such a good thing that I don't have to take advice from you then, isn't it?

I wouldn't dare to presume, I am not worthy.

Why do you dis-value my knowledge so much that you still think you know more than me on this subject? Is it because there is some, deep, inherent belief given to you somewhere in life, that despite everything, you think you are my better and I just have a "bee in my bonnet" and am "bitter"?

You have a Uni degree - I do not
You have a Post grad quali - I do not
You had a PCGE - I only did the 1st year

In terms of academic education you are way ahead of me. In terms of your chosen subject of Physics, I probably couldn't pass an O level exam in it. In terms of parenting I don't have any experience whereas you do. I only challeng you on this long held crusade of yours that Women get a raw deal in life and all men are bastards and its all their fault.

As I have said before, back in the Neanderthal caveman days of 50K-30K BC, the division of Labour was the best for the group survival, as it was in the American Red Indian tribes. In the 20C those ways were still perpetuated where the woman was "supposed" to be the dutiful little housewife cooking, cleaning, washing, child minder. Children were nurtured in many ways to carry that on. In the 21C we are starting to think differently.

Equal pay for equal Jobs
True equality
No glass ceilings
No discrimination
Equal respect
Equal opportunities

Now finally, I am not about to fall prostrate at your feet apologising for society, men in general, nor the world as it is. I have had enough of being your personal kicking post on these issues for 2015. Please go and find some other poor bloke, grab his collar and give him the third degree OK? In the meantime, please write me off as a lost cause,, and let me wallow in my abject misery as beyond redemption, and have a little peace.

Quite frankly I think you are wasting your time being a teacher, why not consider standing for public office, I think you'd be quite successful at it. You have the background and intelligence, and the committment to want to change things for the better. Our Uli is also involved in her local area, have a chat to her.

Your City has 10 Councillors, which are 50/50 male/female, a good mix, why not stand for one of those seats?

There are two seats in your city for BC in the Canadian Parliament. In fact there are 77 female and 228 male MP's, quite a good proportion are women.

Why waste your time here bashing 1/2 a dozen MCP's and no hopers?

p.s. I was a Mechanical Design Engineer, Computer Support Manager, and lastly THQ Desktop Specs Team. Give me a wiring diagram and a soldering iron or crimp tool, and I probably could wire up a telephone.
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Message 1673826 - Posted: 4 May 2015, 15:45:52 UTC

One with 35 THOUSAND Plus Posts and Writes 3 Page Replies said:
Why waste your time here bashing 1/2 a dozen MCP's and no hopers?


Why?

ROTFLMAO

Haters gunna Hate.

Yep


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Message 1673829 - Posted: 4 May 2015, 15:55:35 UTC - in response to Message 1673826.  

One with 35 THOUSAND Plus Posts and Writes 3 Page Replies said:
Why waste your time here bashing 1/2 a dozen MCP's and no hopers?


Why?

ROTFLMAO

Haters gunna Hate.

Yep

As always...

There are Haters, regarding Against ALL women - Infanticide, Slavery, Rape, Trafficking..., on both sides.
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Message 1673837 - Posted: 4 May 2015, 16:08:40 UTC - in response to Message 1673790.  


Perhaps it is the way you go about it.

Insult.

... but there are times when you are like a dog with a bone it its teeth that just wont let go.

another insult

Please stop doing this, you are not my mum, and I am not your pupil in class.

irrelevant.

So sorry for being a worthless man.

Implied insult? or just being deliberately obtuse?

I entirely agree with you. But I am not about to accept a crown of thorns on MY head because of the rest of the worlds attitudes of the time. Have a pop at society and men in general. It is not my place to apologise of accept pennance for something that I personally had no control over. And I have absolutely no intention of doing so.

Irrelevant defensive answer to question I never asked.

Red rag -----> Bull
Snort!!!

Unfortunately I have not been lucky enough to have had a relationsip that was able to produce children. But if my wife was a damn good engineer, then yes I might well have been happy letting her be the breadwinner, why not? What you will not have found is me in a pinny and feather duster when she came home, what you would have found is the dinner cooking.

Again, extreme denial about how easy it was for women to become engineers no matter how good they might be at it.

Did you not have a view at one time that if two people want to eat, then two people should help to prepare it. If two people have made a mess, then two people should help to clear it up. When I suggested that wouldn't it be nice if the man said, a lovely dinner dear, thank you, put your feet up, I'll make you a cup of tea and do the washing up. Your response was, never ever in my world. Still think the same?

This sounds like a distortion of what I wrote and said, so there is no point answering this.

You agree that I am ALLOWED to be happy, but it is pretty clear that you don't LIKE me being happy, and that I think is your problem not mine.

A projection based on your prejudice.

Firstly you didn't answer the question! Secondly yes I damn well am, you bet your sweet bibby! I have had many pm's the last 18 months asking why I don't stand up for myself? Why do I not give as good as I get? Why do I let myself get walked over? So I do listen to others opinions including yours.

Quoting pms that no one else can see to back you up. I am not sure why you included this comment.

Sigh - do your homework please .....

Patronising assumption.

She had her own fulfilling career as well. She was not a dutiful housewife.

I seem to remember they were millionaires too. However your one example that you are flogging like a dead horse still doesn't cut the mustard.

Everybody took it as a simple comedy show, with actresses playing parts. Nobody took as being offensive to women and being bad role models. Only you.

Attempt to find postive gender roles in I love Lucy
As you can see I am not the only one to think that " I Love Lucy was a product of this time, and evidence of sexist gender representation within its episodes is abundant. Many arguments have been made that the show is, overall, degrading to women and reinforces the patriarchal ideology of the 1950s." The article does point out that for its time it was pretty progressive. For its time, Chris. However, as a great show for women? Let's look at one example from the article:
In watching episodes of the show, the sexism and degradation towards women asserted by these scholars and others is evident. In an episode called “Lucy Thinks Ricky is Trying to Murder Her” (5 November 1951), Lucy gets so caught up in a murder mystery she is reading that she becomes convinced Ricky is plotting to murder her. At one point, Ricky slips sleeping powder into a drink for Lucy at Fred’s suggestion because she is “acting crazy.” Throughout the episode, messages about female simplicity and male dominance are reinforced. When everything is cleared up, Lucy is relieved to find out he only put sleeping powder (not poison) in her glass, embracing him as though it is the right of her husband to drug her. The pervading message of the episode is that reading books is dangerous for the fragile mind of a woman.


This is the sort of thing you are holding up as a positive message for women?


Isn't that how you want modern women to be?

Yes, there is a positive message in a movie that portrays her a clutz for most of the movie? I am not a fan at all of the ditzy blond stereotype. I guess me having an opinion other than yours is putting my foot in it.

I wouldn't dare to presume, I am not worthy.

agreed.

You have a Uni degree - I do not
You have a Post grad quali - I do not
You had a PCGE - I only did the 1st year

I also have a post grad diploma in educational studies that I did here in Canada. You'd be amazed about how much more I've learned about human psychology, philosophy, gender studies and racism. Sorry for being over educated.

In terms of academic education you are way ahead of me. In terms of your chosen subject of Physics, I probably couldn't pass an O level exam in it. In terms of parenting I don't have any experience whereas you do. I only challeng you on this long held crusade of yours that Women get a raw deal in life

They do.

...and all men are bastards and its all their fault.

I suggest you go back and re-read every single post of mine and point out where I have ever said that. I have many times pointed out how men can unthinkingly buy into patriarchal ideas, but the rest you just made up.

As I have said before, back in the Neanderthal caveman days of 50K-30K BC, the division of Labour was the best for the group survival, as it was in the American Red Indian tribes. In the 20C those ways were still perpetuated where the woman was "supposed" to be the dutiful little housewife cooking, cleaning, washing, child minder. Children were nurtured in many ways to carry that on. In the 21C we are starting to think differently.

This version of history is actually nonsense. I am not sure who promoted it and what their agenda was, but there really is so much incorrect information in it that it would take a whole thread to put you straight.

Equal pay for equal Jobs
True equality
No glass ceilings
No discrimination
Equal respect
Equal opportunities

Nice sound bites, but we will never deal with them until people deal with the way we raise children, the assumptions we make and the unconscious choices we make. I think your false history lesson was a prime example of this.

Now finally, I am not about to fall prostrate at your feet apologising for society, men in general, nor the world as it is.

I think if you just started with your self, that would be a good start.

I have had enough of being your personal kicking post on these issues for 2015. Please go and find some other poor bloke, grab his collar and give him the third degree OK? In the meantime, please write me off as a lost cause,, and let me wallow in my abject misery as beyond redemption, and have a little peace.

Chris, it has been you that has been coming after me in 2015, so much so that I have wondered about your mental state. I have even gone so far as trying to ignore you for weeks at at a time. It does seem to me that you have been more than a little paranoid lately.

Quite frankly I think you are wasting your time being a teacher, why not consider standing for public office, I think you'd be quite successful at it. You have the background and intelligence, and the committment to want to change things for the better. Our Uli is also involved in her local area, have a chat to her.

I don't have the temperament, I am actively involved in the local politics, but I lack the psychopathic traits necessary to fully succeed as a politician.

Your City has 10 Councillors, which are 50/50 male/female, a good mix, why not stand for one of those seats?

There are two seats in your city for BC in the Canadian Parliament. In fact there are 77 female and 228 male MP's, quite a good proportion are women.

Why waste your time here bashing 1/2 a dozen MCP's and no hopers?

bashing? I am quite sure that the bashing is going the other way. Or do you think that 6 men against 1 woman is fair odds?

Its the decent men that have posted here that remind me that those half a dozen are a dying breed.

p.s. I was a Mechanical Design Engineer, Computer Support Manager, and lastly THQ Desktop Specs Team. Give me a wiring diagram and a soldering iron or crimp tool, and I probably could wire up a telephone.

Good for you.
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