It is an easy learning curve, and works similar to Win 7.

Of course, that's how they suck out your soul. People don't try drugs because they make them feel bad either.

Beware the Trojan Horse.

---

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

I am not the one to worry about.
It is the generations past me that I really worry about.

Steve

---

Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

As I said, we can get around the data collection for a few years, but the future (present) is much more like the book 1984, than we realize.

Steve

Watch Terminator, Genysis. The Skynet, the evil being, is doing exactly what 10 is trying to do.........
Connect everything, monitor everything, overtake and control everything.

The movie was a bit ahead of it's time. But Skynet is here, in the form of Windows 10. It is is evil incarnate. And if you do not see that, I shall survive it longer than you shall.

Once 10 is downloaded, it takes control of some things that you CANNOT recover.
10 is not an OS, it is a VIRUS.

It is Windows 10, Google, Apple, Amazon, and every other leading company.
The real problem is much bigger than Windows 10. Add the NSA, and multiply it by the 100'th power. That is where we are heading as a society.

Steve

---

Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

That is where we are heading as a society.

ABSOLUTE agreement 100%. Time to get off the grid......

---

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

That is where we are heading as a society.

ABSOLUTE agreement 100%. Time to get off the grid......

I agree with you, but going off the grid, is much harder than you can imagine.
You have to give up your drivers license, credit cards, and even coming into society, because of face recognition cameras. You can't have any bills, and are forced to live totally off the land.

If we want a future of no data transferred, then the way of life we have become accustomed to is impossible.

Steve

---

Warning, addicted to SETI crunching!
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website

Always wear a disguise

As I said, we can get around the data collection for a few years, but the future (present) is much more like the book 1984, than we realize.

Steve

Watch Terminator, Genysis. The Skynet, the evil being, is doing exactly what 10 is trying to do.........
Connect everything, monitor everything, overtake and control everything.

The movie was a bit ahead of it's time. But Skynet is here, in the form of Windows 10. It is is evil incarnate. And if you do not see that, I shall survive it longer than you shall.

Let's also add "I, Robot" to that list. Company pushing these things out to everyone in all sectors (public, private, military) under the guise of the individual's best interests in mind.. then the world was blind-sided by an unforeseen hostile-takeover.



Allegory aside, I was really looking forward to 10. I wasn't planning on being an early-adopter, but I really was looking forward to it. But then all of this intrusiveness and lack of privacy, and most importantly: the lack of control, has swayed me away from 10 for the time being.

I was discussing this with my friend the other night and he's been a huge proponent of 10 since that tech preview was made public, but now after nearly a month, he's already wanting to go back to 7... not even the 8.1 that he loves and praises so much. We decided that the biggest complaint I think we have about 10, or even 8.1 to an extent, is that lack of power-user total control that we've been used to for all these years. Us consumers and end-users should have the choice of deciding what our computer does and doesn't do.

I understand that us power users are but a quite small percentage of the overall market and that the typical user either forgets to do updates for things, or they don't know what the updates do, or they get the notification that something is out of date and they don't know what to do and it scares them, so they just ignore it, which leaves a vulnerability open, and then they get a virus or some piece of malware and it costs them money to fix it, or they go and start bad-mouthing MS for allowing that to happen, when it was their own negligence that caused it in the first place.

So the simplest thing to do is to just make updates automatic. And how can you expect MS to make a better product for the masses without gathering some market research? Purportedly, that's what all the telemetry, keylogging and data-mining is for: to be analyzed for patterns to see if there can be an improvement in some process to make it less convoluted, or one less step to achieve the same end-result. That's progress and development, and I have absolutely no qualms with progress and development.

But the part that I do have a problem with is that you can't opt-out of it. In fact, that should be something that should only be enabled or allowed if you opt-in. The majority of people would probably never opt-in anyway, but it should still be our choice.

As I said, I get the reasoning behind some of these things, and for the typical, average plebeian, that's what the 'Home' version is for. It doesn't have techy, nerdy features, and some things are just done automatically so that you don't have to remember to do it, or just not know what to do so you do nothing. For 'Home,' truly-automatic updates makes sense, as a default, with the ability to maybe not turn updates off entirely, but change it over to "notify me that there are updates that need to be installed."

But for us power users, we've always preferred 'Pro' or 'Enterprise.' That means we know what we're doing, and we need more techy, nerdy features, and we are capable of making our own decisions about what to and not to allow. But with 10, Pro offers little to nothing more than Home, with the exception of being able to join domains, use remote desktop, and defer updates for up to 180 days, at which point they will be automatically installed anyway. And, we can't choose to just completely not install specific updates if we don't want those ones. And even in Pro, you still can't turn all of the keylogging and data-mining off. Even in Enterprise, you can't completely turn it off.

And that's what makes me not want to touch 10. It's not just the privacy issues: it's that complete lack of control. Everything is just done for you and you get no say in the matter, regardless of whether you actually agree with it or wanted it in the first place or not. This is a case of MS deciding they know what's best for you, so they do it for you without asking for your input.

That reason alone makes me like my trusty, dependable 7 that much more. Yes, there have been updates to add the telemetry and keylogging stuff to 7, but the updates that provide those are well-documented, so as long as you don't install those updates, you'll be fine on the privacy front, but more importantly, you still have complete and total control of your computer.

Even if MS removes or disables all of the privacy concerns that everyone is up-in-arms about, there's still no guarantee that they are really turned off or removed. How would 99.5% of us know for certain that they really are disabled or even removed entirely? And what guarantee is there that there won't be some vague, non-descript update (as MS has said recently they were going to start doing: not saying what updates do because "nobody cares about that kind of stuff") won't come along a month later and silently turn all of that back on, only being much craftier this time around?

Furthermore, when is there going to be an update that comes along and gives us end-users the choice of deciding what our computer will or won't do? I would be absolutely fine with an opt-in disclaimer to enter "Power User Mode" whereby if I choose to turn services off or not install updates and have complete control over my system, I can no longer contact tech support, or blame MS if my system gets compromised. Essentially: a liability waiver. I would be fine with that, as long as I got complete control over my own system and it wasn't constantly spying on me.

But alas, none of these things are going to end up happening. We can all gripe and complain about wanting it, or saying how things should be, but in the end, MS has never listened to the customers. I've always wondered how they justified radical redesigns or removing the most useful features entirely..or making them absolutely convoluted to get to, and they keep justifying it with "we did extensive market research, and surveys said this is what they wanted."

Once I heard that explanation, I knew exactly how this went down: they went to a mall or some other big-name store and handed random strangers money and said "if you want this money, answer this survey with these specific answers, whether you agree with the answers or not, that way we can say we did a survey." And in the end, it turns out that all four people they picked for this extensive market research...all have MacBooks at home and haven't used Windows in a decade or more.

I'm convinced that's how that works, because if MS actually listened to real, actual users of their own products, practically nobody would have anything to complain about.

---

Linux laptop:
record uptime: 1511d 20h 19m (ended due to the power brick giving-up)

For those who may be interested..

Win10 has yet another update, which requires a restart...

Guess all that public testing before release didn't do the job well enuff, I'm beginning to loose track of the updates since it was released..

Of course one 'assumes' the updates are to fix problems, not to get around users sorting out privacy issues their own way. But who knows?

Regards,

---

Cliff,
Been there, Done that, Still no damm T shirt!

Hello everybody I TERMINATED my try out of Win 10 if the privacy and data security were not enough I was looking for all the different apps that were installed and could not find them they were not on the programs list and they were not in the c:programs folder either. I did however find a hidden folder in c:program files titled Windows apps but I was denied access even though I operate under THE ADMINISTRATOR account not an account with administrator priveleges I did finally change the settings and got access but even when I did half of the folders in there I still was denied access That was the final straw THIS IS MY COMPUTER NOT M$'S COMPUTER. I rolled back to Win 7(spare drive and Win 7 key for my try out) then formatted the drive and it now has Ubuntu on it and I also have Mint on a usb drive I will try both and see which one I like better and that will be my choice after Win 7 support ends. M$ can #%ck off with spyware/malware acting like an OS.

---

ME AND MY BOY LOOKING FOR ET

Another tidbit of info that I just learned from another friend of mine: the "one month" window that you have to roll-back to 7/8.1... is exactly 28 days. He just decided to roll back this evening, and it reported that it failed because the files could not be found. The Windows.old folder was there... but it was empty.

Fortunately, he has multiple system images of the previous 7 install, so there's not much lost there, but still. That's more of that deliberately-vague ambiguity that we've started learning about.

Though to be fair, apparently somewhere on the support pages, it specifically says 28 days in the fine print, but they always say "one month" everywhere else, which to most people, means the same day of the following month, so.. July 29 becomes August 29. That's what I believe most people would consider "one month" to be.

---

Linux laptop:
record uptime: 1511d 20h 19m (ended due to the power brick giving-up)

As I said, we can get around the data collection for a few years, but the future (present) is much more like the book 1984, than we realize.

Steve

Watch Terminator, Genysis. The Skynet, the evil being, is doing exactly what 10 is trying to do.........
Connect everything, monitor everything, overtake and control everything.

The movie was a bit ahead of it's time. But Skynet is here, in the form of Windows 10. It is is evil incarnate. And if you do not see that, I shall survive it longer than you shall.

Let's also add "I, Robot" to that list. Company pushing these things out to everyone in all sectors (public, private, military) under the guise of the individual's best interests in mind.. then the world was blind-sided by an unforeseen hostile-takeover.



Allegory aside, I was really looking forward to 10. I wasn't planning on being an early-adopter, but I really was looking forward to it. But then all of this intrusiveness and lack of privacy, and most importantly: the lack of control, has swayed me away from 10 for the time being.

I was discussing this with my friend the other night and he's been a huge proponent of 10 since that tech preview was made public, but now after nearly a month, he's already wanting to go back to 7... not even the 8.1 that he loves and praises so much. We decided that the biggest complaint I think we have about 10, or even 8.1 to an extent, is that lack of power-user total control that we've been used to for all these years. Us consumers and end-users should have the choice of deciding what our computer does and doesn't do.

I understand that us power users are but a quite small percentage of the overall market and that the typical user either forgets to do updates for things, or they don't know what the updates do, or they get the notification that something is out of date and they don't know what to do and it scares them, so they just ignore it, which leaves a vulnerability open, and then they get a virus or some piece of malware and it costs them money to fix it, or they go and start bad-mouthing MS for allowing that to happen, when it was their own negligence that caused it in the first place.

So the simplest thing to do is to just make updates automatic. And how can you expect MS to make a better product for the masses without gathering some market research? Purportedly, that's what all the telemetry, keylogging and data-mining is for: to be analyzed for patterns to see if there can be an improvement in some process to make it less convoluted, or one less step to achieve the same end-result. That's progress and development, and I have absolutely no qualms with progress and development.

But the part that I do have a problem with is that you can't opt-out of it. In fact, that should be something that should only be enabled or allowed if you opt-in. The majority of people would probably never opt-in anyway, but it should still be our choice.

As I said, I get the reasoning behind some of these things, and for the typical, average plebeian, that's what the 'Home' version is for. It doesn't have techy, nerdy features, and some things are just done automatically so that you don't have to remember to do it, or just not know what to do so you do nothing. For 'Home,' truly-automatic updates makes sense, as a default, with the ability to maybe not turn updates off entirely, but change it over to "notify me that there are updates that need to be installed."

But for us power users, we've always preferred 'Pro' or 'Enterprise.' That means we know what we're doing, and we need more techy, nerdy features, and we are capable of making our own decisions about what to and not to allow. But with 10, Pro offers little to nothing more than Home, with the exception of being able to join domains, use remote desktop, and defer updates for up to 180 days, at which point they will be automatically installed anyway. And, we can't choose to just completely not install specific updates if we don't want those ones. And even in Pro, you still can't turn all of the keylogging and data-mining off. Even in Enterprise, you can't completely turn it off.

And that's what makes me not want to touch 10. It's not just the privacy issues: it's that complete lack of control. Everything is just done for you and you get no say in the matter, regardless of whether you actually agree with it or wanted it in the first place or not. This is a case of MS deciding they know what's best for you, so they do it for you without asking for your input.

That reason alone makes me like my trusty, dependable 7 that much more. Yes, there have been updates to add the telemetry and keylogging stuff to 7, but the updates that provide those are well-documented, so as long as you don't install those updates, you'll be fine on the privacy front, but more importantly, you still have complete and total control of your computer.

Even if MS removes or disables all of the privacy concerns that everyone is up-in-arms about, there's still no guarantee that they are really turned off or removed. How would 99.5% of us know for certain that they really are disabled or even removed entirely? And what guarantee is there that there won't be some vague, non-descript update (as MS has said recently they were going to start doing: not saying what updates do because "nobody cares about that kind of stuff") won't come along a month later and silently turn all of that back on, only being much craftier this time around?

Furthermore, when is there going to be an update that comes along and gives us end-users the choice of deciding what our computer will or won't do? I would be absolutely fine with an opt-in disclaimer to enter "Power User Mode" whereby if I choose to turn services off or not install updates and have complete control over my system, I can no longer contact tech support, or blame MS if my system gets compromised. Essentially: a liability waiver. I would be fine with that, as long as I got complete control over my own system and it wasn't constantly spying on me.

But alas, none of these things are going to end up happening. We can all gripe and complain about wanting it, or saying how things should be, but in the end, MS has never listened to the customers. I've always wondered how they justified radical redesigns or removing the most useful features entirely..or making them absolutely convoluted to get to, and they keep justifying it with "we did extensive market research, and surveys said this is what they wanted."

Once I heard that explanation, I knew exactly how this went down: they went to a mall or some other big-name store and handed random strangers money and said "if you want this money, answer this survey with these specific answers, whether you agree with the answers or not, that way we can say we did a survey." And in the end, it turns out that all four people they picked for this extensive market research...all have MacBooks at home and haven't used Windows in a decade or more.

I'm convinced that's how that works, because if MS actually listened to real, actual users of their own products, practically nobody would have anything to complain about.

I agree with everything you say about control of MY COMPUTER I have been building my own for quite a few years and will NOT give-up that control easily those of us who know what we are doing should have the choice to keep doing things how we want and know how to do. I have only had to contact M$ support maybe 3 times in all the years that I have been using Windows so they need to allow the end-user more control.

---

ME AND MY BOY LOOKING FOR ET

Alternative to skynet does anybody remember Collussus The Forbin project.

---

ME AND MY BOY LOOKING FOR ET

... if MS actually listened to real, actual users of their own products, practically nobody would have anything to complain about.

Seriously?
How many years have you been using these message boards? The internet in general?
The more people there are, the more different and opposing opinions there are.
If MS do something, people complain about it. If they reverse that decision, people complain about it. If they do something slightly differently, people complain about it. If they revert back the way it was, people complain about it.

In short- people complain, no matter what.

---

Grant
Darwin NT

Alternative to skynet does anybody remember Collussus The Forbin project.

Yes!! A great forebear of Skynet. Saw that film along with The Andromeda Strain as a double feature.

---

Seti@Home classic workunits:20,676 CPU time:74,226 hours

A proud member of the OFA (Old Farts Association)

Got two more updates requiring reboots this morning. After playing with AMD Catalyst on a HP PC which started with Windows 8, updated to 8.1, updated to Windows 10, I had to reset the PC with the Repair DVD I had downloaded after the first two updates. I lost all HP applications which I had used, such as Quick Start, but I reinstalled BOINC 7.6.6 and Virtual Box 4.3.30 which is needed by CERN projects. It runs now as a naked Home Edition but it runs.
Tullio

---

To me, looks like Microsoft is very determined to have everything about you pawned for their profit and your loss.

Incredible.


IT is only what we allow it to be...
Martin

The same as Google, Amazon, and Apple.

Each tech pro is well aware not to use google if he is concerned about privacy.
My smart phone is rooted and google totally deleted.
I only install apps as apk`s and i`m online only to check mails and messages.
Approx 10 minutes a day.

I`m using startpage as search engine and have encrypted internet connection.
Also those servers win wants to contact are blocked by my firewall.
Its still not perfect but much better than most.

I totally agree with Martin.
Its just what we allow it to be.

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

Now, that's what I call a cutting comment.....and a rather good one at that. I've ordered 2 X Win 7 Pro 64 bit packages for my new builds after 'confirming' that Win 10 is not for me.

Could you pm me where and the prices. I need a couple for me.

Amazon...

Or Ebay.

Ebay seems to have some better bargains at the moment.

The well has not run dry just yet, Chris.

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

Greetings Clyde,

I only had the first update installed and have uninstalled it. I checked my list 4 times to make sure.

WinAero states on that page that Micro$oft is circumventing the HOSTS file by having the server domains hard coded in the update file(s). What I did was added the domains to my router so they are blocked from any access.

It is looking more and more like Micro$soft is unintentionally alienating users from using their software and Operating System. Too bad that the majority of Windows users don't have a clue as to what Micro$oft is doing.

My PC is MY PC, not Micro$oft's PC. I will do with it as I damned well please and will run whatever legal software I damned well want to run on it and they ain't got nothin' to say about it. ;)

Keep on BOINCing...! :)

---

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

t is looking more and more like Micro$soft is unintentionally alienating users from using their software and Operating System. Too bad that the majority of Windows users don't have a clue as to what Micro$oft is doing.

I'm assuming you meant intentionally? Surely they can't be too stupid to realize alienation would occur in the present climate worldwide regarding spying and data collection. I for one have warned every person on my contact list that I know run Windows and have helped several of them remove these invasive updates from their systems.

Those of us with a more or less greater understanding of what is going on need to be the 'voice in the wilderness' broadcasting this crime to all the less savvy and unsuspecting and that goes for trying to get this knowledge widely known and even exposed in the National media.

Of course M$NBC won't be getting on the Bandwagon.

---

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

My PC is MY PC, not Micro$oft's PC. I will do with it as I damned well please and will run whatever legal software I damned well want to run on it and they ain't got nothin' to say about it. ;)

Keep on BOINCing...! :)

I have some pretty strong feelings about this as well.
I have hand assembled each and every rig I run on Seti from scratch.
The OS is necessary to run them, and I am not sure I have the moxy anymore to learn linux, as pissed off as I may be at the arrogance of MS these days.

But, when I purchase Windows, I expect it then to be my property to use as I see fit. I did not purchase it to give MS the right to commandeer my property for their own nefarious intentions. Yes, I know the EULA says otherwise.

I have XP Pro on 8 crunchers. Couple 64bit, the others 32. They shall remain as such until something happens that it is no longer viable. God willing, that shall not happen until I am ready for the trash bin myself...LOL.

My daily driver is now on 7 Pro 64...I did that begrudgingly when XP no longer had support for some things required to do my daily driving.
But, I have come to like 7. It is stable as hell. No complaints there.

Updates are disabled on all XP rigs. It works well, so keep your damned hands offa my hardware....LOL.

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."