## Windows 10 - Yea or Nay?

Message boards : Number crunching : Windows 10 - Yea or Nay?
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Raistmer
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Message 1714482 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 14:51:45 UTC - in response to Message 1714476.

From me it's more "and M$too!" than "It's M$!". Yep, it's whole scaring tendency. And the fact that M$followed it to such degree is most scaring part of it. ID: 1714482 · Mike Volunteer tester Joined: 17 Feb 01 Posts: 33374 Credit: 79,922,639 RAC: 80 Message 1714485 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 15:08:56 UTC - in response to Message 1714482. From me it's more "and M$ too!" than "It's M$!". Yep, it's whole scaring tendency. And the fact that M$ followed it to such degree is most scaring part of it.

Couldn`t agree more.
With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.
ID: 1714485 ·
Mike
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Message 1714486 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 15:13:52 UTC - in response to Message 1714465.

That EULA stood until it was challenged in European courts
And until the European courts judge this one to be illegal it stands, which is what I said

Ooops, one important word missed: successfully challenged.
That is, it was illegal. So, if you consider OK for M$to use illegal EULA until someone will take huge work to prove it illegal (that is, to make crime until caught) why ability to download pirated video until caught so inappropriate to your view? ;) Just edited my post to contain the actual reason they were fined by the European courts http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/11/us-microsoft-browser-lawsuit-idUSBREA3A1YI20140411 In addition the court said. The user must have the ability to disable any "feature" he dont want to use. A feature is not part of the OS like all apps in win 10 for example or IE "Edge". In my point of view whats illegal once remains illegal until confirmed otherwise. With each crime and every kindness we birth our future. ID: 1714486 · Siran d'Vel'nahr Volunteer tester Joined: 23 May 99 Posts: 7372 Credit: 44,181,323 RAC: 238 Message 1714495 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 15:34:14 UTC - in response to Message 1714456. Sorry, didn't get the sarcasm bit So just because the person before you jumps off the bridge, that makes it quite all right for you to jump off the bridge as well? It's statements like yours (and anyone defending Windows 10 for that matter) that make me cringe. Others do it, so it's OK for Microsoft to do it also, but on a much much grander scale Not defending them at all, just trying to point out (obviously unsuccessfully) that there is a market for this and until that market moves on, companies are going to provide the service If you're going to vilify Microsoft for doing something then aim the same criticisms at all the companies that do it otherwise it just looks like you're anti-Microsoft -[ snip ]- -[ snip ]- -[ snip ]- -[ snip ]- -[ snip ]- -[ snip ]- -[ snip ]- -[ snip ]- Greetings Jamie, The reason Micro$oft is being 'vilified' here is because Windows 10 is an OPERATING SYSTEM. An OS is supposed to maintain the PC it is on and nothing more, basically. I have no XBox so why is that in Win10? I refuse to use Skype because Micro$oft bought it. I do not us any productivity software from Micro$oft, I use LibreOffice which used to be OpenOffice until Oracle got their hands on it. I use open source software everywhere possible. I do not need my PC spying on me because of the crappy OS it is now relying on to function properly. I am leaning closer and closer to reverting back to Win7. The more I read this thread, the less I want Win10 on my home built PC.

And 'cookies'? You have great control over which cookies can and cannot be accepted by your browser. :)

Keep on BOINCing...! :)
CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr XO - L L & P _\\//
USS Vre'kasht NCC-33187
Winders 10 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath
ID: 1714495 ·
Iona

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Message 1714551 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 17:25:17 UTC

I'm beginning to wonder if J.B. Yeats predicted the release of Win 10....

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Don't take life too seriously, as you'll never come out of it alive!
ID: 1714551 ·
JaundicedEye

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Message 1714594 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 18:16:37 UTC

I had an Administrative Assistant 15 years ago who, every time her Office 97 WORD locked up or crashed, would announce to the world "Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ!"

I'm beginning to believe she was right.......

It's almost like a good friend for 25 years suddenly decided to rape you.
(And no ladies, I'm not making light of that terrible crime.)

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
ID: 1714594 ·
Jamie
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Message 1714625 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 18:57:48 UTC - in response to Message 1714594.

I had an Administrative Assistant 15 years ago who, every time her Office 97 WORD locked up or crashed, would announce to the world "Bill Gates is the Anti-Christ!"

I'm beginning to believe she was right.......

It's almost like a good friend for 25 years suddenly decided to rape you.
(And no ladies, I'm not making light of that terrible crime.)

Its nothing like being raped, and if you had been raped or had known anyone that had been raped you would never even think about making that comparison or bringing it up

When someone comes close to making such a stupid comparison as to compare a change to a computer OS to one of the most horrific crimes that can be committed against a person its time for me to leave the conversation as I don't want to have my name anywhere near such a person
ID: 1714625 ·
JaundicedEye

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Message 1714645 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 20:01:13 UTC

My apologies to anyone offended that is never my intention, which was the reason for the last sentence :
And no ladies, I'm not making light of that terrible crime.
I will not defend my post or comment further on it.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
ID: 1714645 ·
Wedge009
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Message 1714696 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 21:11:41 UTC - in response to Message 1714476.

Ranting and raving about it isn't going to change how it works, but a balanced and fair discussion on it might stand a chance

I've long since given up on seeing that here. Yes, there are some serious things at stake, but there's been way too much name-calling and the like going on. But I thank you and the others who have at least tried to keep this discussion level-headed.
Soli Deo Gloria
ID: 1714696 ·
Raistmer
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Message 1714701 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 21:29:35 UTC

Hehe...

ID: 1714701 ·
ML1
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Message 1714737 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 22:12:27 UTC - in response to Message 1714625.

... Its nothing like being raped...

"Physically", indeed so.

However, "metaphorically"...

Consider this?

Are you so holy and innocent, for your every thought and act, always, so as to be so unconcerned about unnknown others (who are not your friends) to know all and every detail about you and your thoughts and more significantly, knowing your friends and aquaintences?...

Now consider...

Most of those 'unnkown others' will firstly be Marketing that will be looking at every angle to twist your life to extract money and time from you. You WILL enjoy their experience for your life!

Other unnkowns will be looking at how they can extort you for whatever assumed or threatened or contrived 'infraction' you have against their arbitrary rules or 'IP' or 'copyright'. (Certainly not your rights that you cannot afford to defend.)

Other unnknowns can simple piece details together to simply uncermoniously rob you, all with no comeback.

And also note that no matter how holy you may feel yourself to be, there will be others that decide for you that you must be holy in a different way. What you may feel may be fine by your values could well mean your death upon travelling abroad. (Or for some examples, even just venturing into some of the USA southern states!)

Note that for our society to work, we really do need to have 'secrets' to avoid leaving ourselves wide open to suffering our lives being 'raped' by others.

We are already building a sad list of the lives of the naieve being ruined or at least changed in unwanted ways by the all too easy abuse of too much very personal detail being all too readily available to the entire world.

And this does not only concern only you... If it is you who also freely gives away the personal details of your friends and anyone else you know...

(I suffer far too much of my life wasted as it is just from the 'personalised' spam from my friends that have had their electronic address books raided...)

So where do we go next?

Just for one example, the webcam staring at you just now (on what you consider to be 'your' computer) analyses your face, identifies acne or whatever skin condition, and you next get a stream of calls to your mobile from call centres from around the world offering you miracle cures for your 'little embarrasing condition'...

Or you go surfing the web to find that every web page from every website shows the same miracle cures for you and for anyone else with you to see for you.

Or your directed Marketing could be for whatever else is chosen for you for whatever is deemed for you to be your taste/fetish/need/weakness...

Too far fetched?...

For some systems, that is already happening...

There are alternatives whereby IT is not used to abuse the users.

IT is what we allow it to be...
Martin
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Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)
ID: 1714737 ·
Jord
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Message 1714743 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 22:24:47 UTC

I see there are at least three agreements you have to acknowledge to.
The Services Agreement, the Retail License Terms and the OEM License Terms, and the Privacy statement on the Microsoft website.

But here's a beauty I found in the UseTerms documents:
Updates. The softwareperiodically [sic] checks for system and app updates, and downloads and installs them for you. You may obtain updates only from Microsoft or authorized sources, and Microsoft may need to update your system to provide you with those updates. By accepting this agreement, you agree to receive these types of automatic updates without any additional notice.
I guess that means no more drivers from obscure places, or your self-burned discs, not even if that means you can use your old (external) hardware or gamepad/joystick that doesn't have a driver in Win10.
I also wonder if BOINC is a an approved application in the Windows Store. Thus far on a search I cannot find it.
ID: 1714743 ·
SciManStev
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Message 1714762 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 22:45:10 UTC

After I updated to the latest driver from Nvidia, which is Win 10 compatible, my AP units started aborting with no coprocessor found. I tried to do a clean install of my older, working driver, and it failed. Then I stripped all the fluff out of the driver, and tried again, this time successfully.

When I got home today, I went into the control panel/system/advanced settings/hardware, and set it so that driver updates are not installed. Then I took the second measure, and downloaded Microsoft's specific tool to hide the Nvidia drivers. I did a cold reboot, and went to Windows Updates, and of course the newer Nvidia driver was still there waiting to be installed. Whether it will or not remains to be seen. Either way, even with the old, tried and true driver, AP units were still aborting. Now I don't have any on board, so I will have to wait, with flags set, to see what happens when more download.

This has been a bit of frustration, because nobody wants to lose AP units, especially in the middle of the WOW event.

Steve
Crunching as a member of GPU Users Group.
GPUUG Website
ID: 1714762 ·
Jord
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Message 1714793 - Posted: 17 Aug 2015, 23:42:17 UTC - in response to Message 1714456.

If you're going to vilify Microsoft for doing something then aim the same criticisms at all the companies that do it otherwise it just looks like you're anti-Microsoft

I do not run a Google operating system on my personal computer.
I do not run Steam OS on my personal computer.
My web provider doesn't have an OS of its own.
My Android smartphone used up 1.2 megabytes of wifi in the past 12 hours of monitoring, mostly going towards apps tracking the weather.

I will expect of Google to try to find out as much as it possibly can about me, because in essence it is a search engine and advertisement company.
I can follow that Bing will try to find out as much about me as well, also strictly for its search engine and advertisement policies.
Any search engine will probably try to do that.

In any browser you can simply block such things by not allowing tracking, and not allowing storage of third party cookies.
My web provider has a web site on which I can set how I want their cookie to work, very basic through to extremely detailed. It's set for me to very basic, because it's not a page I visit daily, so there's no need for them to know everything about me. Their web mail works with the very basic cookie setting.

Which then brings us to the Win10 operating system. Why does it need to know anything I am doing?
There is really not one reason that I can think of why my operating system must know what I am doing with it, where I am doing that from and for how long, on which days and why not on Wednesday at 3pm in the afternoon. I also cannot find any reason why 'free games' need to have unskippable video-advertisments. I cannot even find one reason why the one card-game that was with Windows since 3.0 now costs 10 dollars per year to stay advert-free.

I take it you regularly run Malwarebytes/Superantispyware/Hitman Pro (not the game)/anti virus/etc. on your system to get rid of all the possible virii, spyware and malware? So why do you not care one frick about it when your OS, and all the software its manufacturer produces, does exactly the same thing? And cannot be removed by Malwarebytes/Superantispyware/Hitman Pro (not the game)/anti virus/etc.?

Like I said, I made a decision about what privacy I was prepared to give up to get access to what I want, when and how I want it. Based on facts and research I did prior to installing the OS. This is a personal decision that you and no-one else has the right to criticise for. I don't judge you for not wanting to use Windows 10, don't judge me for using it

I asked a question, I did not judge you on anything.
If malware behaved this way, we'd see warnings all over the press about it. Warnings you'd have to update to the latest browser/SQL/OS Updates/whatever, but N.O.W.
Is it not the slightest bit unsettling to you when the very infrastructure of your computer is keeping tabs on most everything you do and then selling it on to unknown third-parties, as well as potentially storing it on someone elseâ€™s servers forever?

But it isn't just advertisements that they're after. It's total control over your system. Microsoft dictates what you can and cannot run or do on your system, what hardware, what software.

Apple already dictates in a lot of their products what hardware you can install (if any is user swappable at all), what software is available in their app store same with Android, where was the outcry then?

Apple doesn't send everything you do on the computer back to HQ to then go sell that to the highest bidder.
The hardware control that they had for a long time was so they could make an OS that ran specifically on that hardware, no need to make it run on a quadrillion different possible hardware combinations. Big personal computer companies did and still do so as well. Hardware in them can only be bought from them, when bought from elsewhere chances are high it just doesn't fit or doesn't work.

And as I said before, for the past 12 hours my Android phone has been in my neighborhood. There's plenty of stuff installed on it. It can only communicate with the world through wifi. It's used up a massive 1.2 megabytes, and that even includes a quick look through these forums with the Dolphin browser.

If you don't want to use it, then don't, move to Linux or Apple, or Chrome OS and see if they are any better. If they are then great happy for you but don't judge people for using an OS you don't agree with as it has no impact on you whatsoever

Could you the please stop telling me what I should go do? Just because I do not want Win10 on my systems does not mean I then must move to Linux, Apple, Chrome OS, Steam OS or anything else. How about I stay with Win7, okay with you?
Seeing how you turn any question and differing opinion into a "you've got no right to judge me or the people" argument, perhaps it's a good idea to take a breather and come back again when you can see the difference between a question and someone judging your personal decision to go with Win10.

Meanwhilst, the Microsoft web site is still bothering me with the message that my update is coming. It apparently hasn't registered that I have removed the KB Updates from my TV server, as I am no longer planning on getting Windows 10 in its present form.
ID: 1714793 ·
KLiK
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Message 1714803 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 17:30:25 UTC - in response to Message 1714433.

Or do you mean if MS has reason to believe that you are somehow in breach of the Terms & Conditions of the licence or engaged in illegal activities on your PC when it can disclose certain information and data from your HDD?

I mean that M$can do that w/o reason. What it thinks is reason can be not reason to someone else. Again, if police "has the reason" they should obtain court order. What unclear here? when they got a reason, they will give it to authorities... ;) btw, games & programs r cheap now... non-profit org. Play4Life in Zagreb, Croatia, EU ID: 1714803 · JumpinJohnny Joined: 27 Mar 13 Posts: 678 Credit: 962,093 RAC: 0 Message 1714810 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 17:55:19 UTC My own M$ progression:
Dos 6.0
Win 3.1.1
Win 95
Win 98
Win 7

I say NO to Win 10
ID: 1714810 ·
River Song

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Message 1714814 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 17:58:20 UTC

Tuesday. August 18th. 2015 @10.49 AM. [GMT-0800]. Day of year = 230

"MOTS" = my word for "more of the same" Windows 10 info.. More to add to the issues about Win 10 raised thus far.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/08/17/technology/windows-10-privacy/index.html?
iid=ob_homepage_money_pool&iid=obnetwork

Win 10 sounds kinda scary to me... Especially the stuff about "jumping thru hoops" to more than a dozen places to "shut off," (for how long?), something you don't like.

I did SEE it "for real" in a store yesterday and, I must admit, the screen looks quite nice, and much better than Win 8. It still has that "smartphone" look but a lot less than Win 8.

Plz keep in mind I'm just the MESSENGER, OK? You have a problem with anything stated on this Win 10 link, take it up with the author. :)

Linda
River Song (aka Linda Latte on planet Earth)
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ID: 1714814 ·
S@NL Etienne Dokkum
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Message 1714837 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 19:15:43 UTC

damn Windows 10 cumulative updates. it decided to upgrade my NVidia driver overnight from 347.88 to 353.xx something causing all my AP's to error out...

Well that's the end of it : no more updating although I believe the Windows 10 NSA edition can turn updates back on by itself sadly.
ID: 1714837 ·
Jamie
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Message 1714849 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 19:36:48 UTC - in response to Message 1714793.

If you're going to vilify Microsoft for doing something then aim the same criticisms at all the companies that do it otherwise it just looks like you're anti-Microsoft

I do not run a Google operating system on my personal computer.
I do not run Steam OS on my personal computer.
My web provider doesn't have an OS of its own.
My Android smartphone used up 1.2 megabytes of wifi in the past 12 hours of monitoring, mostly going towards apps tracking the weather.

I will expect of Google to try to find out as much as it possibly can about me, because in essence it is a search engine and advertisement company.
I can follow that Bing will try to find out as much about me as well, also strictly for its search engine and advertisement policies.
Any search engine will probably try to do that.

In any browser you can simply block such things by not allowing tracking, and not allowing storage of third party cookies.
My web provider has a web site on which I can set how I want their cookie to work, very basic through to extremely detailed. It's set for me to very basic, because it's not a page I visit daily, so there's no need for them to know everything about me. Their web mail works with the very basic cookie setting.

Which then brings us to the Win10 operating system. Why does it need to know anything I am doing?
There is really not one reason that I can think of why my operating system must know what I am doing with it, where I am doing that from and for how long, on which days and why not on Wednesday at 3pm in the afternoon.

The data collected from Cortana, as far as I can work out, is used to provide better speech\text analysis, and to provide relevant search results (based on location\previous searches etc.)
As for the extra information collected through the advanced error reporting system, I can only assume this is provide better analysis and bug fixes - as long as they only collect the relevant information how is this a bad thing?
If they collect information that is not relevant then that is a different matter, however, I have seen nothing that backs this statement up

AS for accessing your data if they have reason to believe you are using the computer to carry out illegal activities how is that a bad thing?

I also cannot find any reason why 'free games' need to have unskippable video-advertisments. I cannot even find one reason why the one card-game that was with Windows since 3.0 now costs 10 dollars per year to stay advert-free.

Put simply people don't give software away for free, as has been pointed out many times. If advertising helps pay for 'free' games which supports indie developers then good

I take it you regularly run Malwarebytes/Superantispyware/Hitman Pro (not the game)/anti virus/etc. on your system to get rid of all the possible virii, spyware and malware? So why do you not care one frick about it when your OS, and all the software its manufacturer produces, does exactly the same thing? And cannot be removed by Malwarebytes/Superantispyware/Hitman Pro (not the game)/anti virus/etc.?

Like I said, I made a decision about what privacy I was prepared to give up to get access to what I want, when and how I want it. Based on facts and research I did prior to installing the OS. This is a personal decision that you and no-one else has the right to criticise for. I don't judge you for not wanting to use Windows 10, don't judge me for using it

I asked a question, I did not judge you on anything.
If malware behaved this way, we'd see warnings all over the press about it. Warnings you'd have to update to the latest browser/SQL/OS Updates/whatever, but N.O.W.
Is it not the slightest bit unsettling to you when the very infrastructure of your computer is keeping tabs on most everything you do and then selling it on to unknown third-parties, as well as potentially storing it on someone elseâ€™s servers forever?

Apologies - the way I read the statement it read as if you were passing judgement
To be honest, no, it doesn't bother me. I've set Windows up so it only passes the minimum amount of data back to Microsoft so I get the features I want to use. As I keep saying, its a trade off between getting the features you want and loss of some privacy that each user should make, and not just blindly believe everything they read about Windows 10

If you don't want to use it, then don't, move to Linux or Apple, or Chrome OS and see if they are any better. If they are then great happy for you but don't judge people for using an OS you don't agree with as it has no impact on you whatsoever

Could you the please stop telling me what I should go do? Just because I do not want Win10 on my systems does not mean I then must move to Linux, Apple, Chrome OS, Steam OS or anything else. How about I stay with Win7, okay with you?

No one is telling you what to do - I was offering other OS's that are out there, if you want to stick with Win 7 then fine as long as you are happy with it no-one else should give a crap
Personally, I don't care what you use, and I don't expect you to care about what I use. Is that okay with you?

Seeing how you turn any question and differing opinion into a "you've got no right to judge me or the people" argument, perhaps it's a good idea to take a breather and come back again when you can see the difference between a question and someone judging your personal decision to go with Win10.

I'm not turning everything into a personal judgement, I'm just stating that a lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon slating Windows 10 without having done any research (and no that wasn't aimed at you)
A lot of people in this thread have stated absolute rubbish and half-truths as fact and I'm just trying to have a balanced conversation about this, as there are issues with the OS which I've never denied, but going off the deep end about isn't going to achieve anything and is just spreading more problems

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree on Windows 10 - clearly you have some major issues with it, which is fine, I have made the decision about it and am happy with the way it works

As for you comment about taking a breather - maybe you should as well, maybe try re-reading some of my posts while you are, and see that I have never told you what to do, or what OS you should use.
Maybe some of your comments didn't translate well into text, and if I misread them I apologise, but I won't apologise for trying to have a balanced sensible conversation without people claiming Microsoft is the devil incarnate
ID: 1714849 ·
SciManStev
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Message 1714855 - Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 19:44:28 UTC - in response to Message 1714837.

damn Windows 10 cumulative updates. it decided to upgrade my NVidia driver overnight from 347.88 to 353.xx something causing all my AP's to error out...

Well that's the end of it : no more updating although I believe the Windows 10 NSA edition can turn updates back on by itself sadly.

That was my problem as well, but I think I may have stopped it from doing it again. I will need more AP units to be sure, as it did error out some 25 of them, after I had put the old driver back, and stopped all driver updates, and hid the offending one, only to see it return to the update que.

Steve