Je suis Varoufakis :)

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Profile shizaru
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Message 1698556 - Posted: 4 Jul 2015, 23:17:19 UTC
Last modified: 4 Jul 2015, 23:23:07 UTC

Joseph E. Stiglitz
Professor at Columbia University and a Nobel Laureate in Economics

Europe's Attack on Greek Democracy

NEW YORK -- The rising crescendo of bickering and acrimony within Europe might seem to outsiders to be the inevitable result of the bitter endgame playing out between Greece and its creditors. In fact, European leaders are finally beginning to reveal the true nature of the ongoing debt dispute, and the answer is not pleasant: it is about power and democracy much more than money and economics. [though I'm pretty sure that's "it is about power and money much more than democracy and economics" - Alex]

Of course, the economics behind the program that the "troika" (the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund) foisted on Greece five years ago has been abysmal, resulting in a 25 percent decline in the country's GDP. I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences: Greece's rate of youth unemployment, for example, now exceeds 60 percent.

It is startling that the troika has refused to accept responsibility for any of this or admit how bad its forecasts and models have been. But what is even more surprising is that Europe's leaders have not even learned. The troika is still demanding that Greece achieve a primary budget surplus (excluding interest payments) of 3.5 percent of GDP by 2018.

Economists around the world have condemned that target as punitive, because aiming for it will inevitably result in a deeper downturn. Indeed, even if Greece's debt is restructured beyond anything imaginable, the country will remain in depression if voters there commit to the troika's target in the snap referendum to be held this weekend.

In terms of transforming a large primary deficit into a surplus, few countries have accomplished anything like what the Greeks have achieved in the last five years. And, though the cost in terms of human suffering has been extremely high, the Greek government's recent proposals went a long way toward meeting its creditors' demands.

We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors -- including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries' banking systems. The IMF and the other "official" creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as-usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece.

But, again, it's not about the money. It's about using "deadlines" to force Greece to knuckle under, and to accept the unacceptable -- not only austerity measures, but other regressive and punitive policies.

But why would Europe do this? Why are European Union leaders resisting the referendum and refusing even to extend by a few days the June 30 deadline for Greece's next payment to the IMF? Isn't Europe all about democracy?
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Message 1698573 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 0:30:45 UTC - in response to Message 1698556.  

Alex speaking as an economist the Euro is a bad idea without a central bank and a common government. As far as the consequences of the demands being put on Greece they are so recessionary the failure of the economy is guaranteed.
On the other hand Greece does need to clean up it's act. There is too much tax evasion, too many non competitive factors, and too much corruption. The traditional way of doing business in Greece can not survive against a more robust EU.
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Message 1698634 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 11:41:40 UTC

Straight from a horse's mouth...

EU warns of Armageddon

"Romano Prodi, former chief of the European Commission and Italy's ex-premier, said it is the EU's own survival that is now a stake as the botched handling of the Greek crisis escalates into a catastrophe. "If the EU cannot resolve a small problem the size of Greece, what is the point of Europe?""

"It has emerged that European members on the board of the International Monetary Fund tried to suppress the publication of a report by the IMF showing that Greece's debt is "unsustainable" and that the country is in grave need of debt relief.

This validates the claim by Syriza that a deal without debt restructuring fails to go to the root of the problem, and merely ensures another crisis later"

...it's amazing how many blind there are at the top.
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Message 1698645 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 12:43:31 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jul 2015, 12:44:39 UTC

The EU has known about the Greece bad economy for years.
But nothing has happened.
In a report by the Greek Finance Ministry described the situation. In the years 2004-09, in public expenditure (interest rates on government debt are not included) rosed 87 percent, but tax revenues rose only by 31 percent.
When Greece joined the euro, the situation worsened since the loans were cheap. Here, foreign creditors equal responsibility as the Greeks - they were all too willing to ignore the risks. For even before Greece joined the euro in 2002, there were warnings that the country was not mature for it.

Greece's economy is suffering from a series of severe structural problems. Here are a few:
The country has a historic and widespread corruption. Political dynasties have purchased support by handing out jobs in the public sector and benefits.
Competitiveness is lousy, highly regulated markets and (former) favorable terms for early retirement contribute to it.
Tax collection is ineffective, which has provided good opportunities for widespread tax evasion. According to the OECD's tax liability 90 percent of total tax revenue, the highest level of any OECD country. At the end of 2014 was the Greeks' overall tax liability, built up over many years, nearly 80 billion euros.

Although pensions today is lean, the cost of the pension higher than in any other European country, according to the EU statistical office Eurostat. That is partly because the economy has shrunk more than pensions have done. But at the same time, the previously favorable conditions for early retirement meant that Greece has a high proportion of seniors in its population.

Greece's government debt as a percentage of GDP from 2004 to 2014.
Now about 171% !
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=teina225&plugin=1
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Message 1698694 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 15:57:43 UTC - in response to Message 1697876.  

That presumes that the EU did not move its position during the negotiations, which is blatantly false. Although it the current narrative set up by the Greek government. In other words, they are lying to you.


Then the whole INTJ thread went waaay over your head :) I've got a built-in radar for bull which, more importantly, has served me well. I'm the guy that takes a perverse pleasure in being wrong. Because I know it means I just learned something new. "Winning" (for the sake of it) does not interest me at all.

Yeap, I'll roll over like a puppy on the right facts. But it takes a MajorKong mop-the-floor-with-you-while-providing-you-with-a-mountain-of-data-you-didn't-know-existed kind of approach to get through to me. Your overused generic fallback of "it's all just politics" cannot be applied to every single case. Even if it is true in most! :)

But anyway, that's all personal and you are not obliged to believe a single word of it. The point is:

Actually it's you that has been lied to this time. Though I admit that technically it's not called lying but "being played for a fool" or whatever. Which in my book is the worst kind of lying (but anyway)...

Since you appear to be a kind, fair, level-headed person it appears to me you sometimes fall in the trap of subconsciously thinking others are too. Now don't worry, consciously I already know you don't believe that at all.

Because the only narrative I heard from the "government" was that:
a) (as Krugman put it in link above) the goalposts kept being moved and
b) it was irrelevant anyway because there weren't many (any?) bullet points on the list that made any sense.

Which is why a lot of economists inside and out of the EU where FURIOUS. That tends to happen when you insult the intelligence of a smart person :) The fact that the long list of arbitrary demands was not backed by ANY kind of analysis (not to mention we've all completely forgot what guarantees mean) screams of hubris.

But don't worry... the core of the EU is going above and beyond the call of duty to install a technocrat that will hammer out all the craziness through in days. At which point Golden Dawn and other lunatics watch their popularity skyrocket while the EU (maybe even you too Michiel) washes their hands of having anything to do with it.

You are grossly underestimating just how crazy these few clowns in charge are acting right now.
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Message 1698728 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 17:55:04 UTC

After a quarter of all the votes have been counted has the "no" side 60.6 percent of the votes and the "yes" side 39.4 percent.
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Message 1698731 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 18:08:09 UTC - in response to Message 1698634.  

it's amazing how many blind there are at the top.

Greed is Good!
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Message 1698746 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 18:49:09 UTC

Oxi, oxi, oxi. Give Großdeutschland the finger.

IT'S OFFICIAL! GREECE SAYS ‪#‎OXI‬!!!
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Message 1698762 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 19:48:58 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jul 2015, 19:51:59 UTC

όχi. Sounds almost like Oh Shit.
Well. Greece had it coming...
Lucky me that I don't live in the euro-zone, EMU.
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Message 1698765 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 20:10:03 UTC - in response to Message 1698746.  

Oxi, oxi, oxi. Give Großdeutschland the finger.

IT'S OFFICIAL! GREECE SAYS ‪#‎OXI‬!!!

Well that's the G from PIGS giving Europe the bird, now all we need is PIS to do the same & it's goodbye EU :-)
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Message 1698767 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 20:17:53 UTC - in response to Message 1698765.  
Last modified: 5 Jul 2015, 20:25:23 UTC

Oxi, oxi, oxi. Give Großdeutschland the finger.

IT'S OFFICIAL! GREECE SAYS ‪#‎OXI‬!!!

Well that's the G from PIGS giving Europe the bird, now all we need is PIS to do the same & it's goodbye EU :-)

Yup, now we only have to wait for the people in Portugal, Italy, and Spain, to demand their own referendum on the EU crime syndicate.

Greece 1 - Großdeutschland 0. Take that Großdeutschland :-)

Edit: Oh btw Großdeutschland, you can look at your billions of Euro to Greece, as a small installment of War reparations, for what you did to Greece during your last attempt to create a Großdeutschland, and Lebensraum. Expect to pay out more war reparations to Greece, and the rest of Europe, for as long as your country exists.

We who lost families and friends in your death camps, will never ever forget or forgive.
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Message 1698793 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 21:40:11 UTC

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Message 1698796 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 21:45:33 UTC

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Message 1698804 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 22:05:09 UTC

Statement by the European Commission following the referendum in Greece

"The European Commission takes note of and respects the result of the referendum in Greece."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAhhaaaaaaaahaahaaAAAaahahaha!!!!

I don't think that word means what they think it means!!!


Who's in the mood for a round of 18 TINAs screaming? :D

Spoiler: Slovak FinMin first one to shriek like a loony from Arkham! :D
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Message 1698808 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 22:15:44 UTC - in response to Message 1698804.  
Last modified: 5 Jul 2015, 22:16:50 UTC

Statement by the European Commission following the referendum in Greece

"The European Commission takes note of and respects the result of the referendum in Greece."

AAAAAAAAAAAAAhhaaaaaaaahaahaaAAAaahahaha!!!!

I don't think that word means what they think it means!!!


Who's in the mood for a round of 18 TINAs screaming? :D

Spoiler: Slovak FinMin first one to shriek like a loony from Arkham! :D

Jean-Claude Juncker, the commission president viewed as complicit in helping to slash the tax bills of hundreds of firms while he was prime minister of Luxembourg.

Yeah, right man on the right post now. Freaking crime cult this EU crap. EU needs to be taken apart, and its leaders put in jail for life.
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Message 1698811 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 22:24:45 UTC
Last modified: 5 Jul 2015, 22:26:08 UTC

Wolfgang my dear chap, can I have one of these with Varoufakis on it please? :D


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Message 1698813 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 22:31:23 UTC - in response to Message 1698811.  

Wolfgang my dear chap, can I have one of these with Varoufakis on it please? :D


Venceremos, venceremos
mil cadenas habra que romper
venceremos, venceremos,
la miseria sabrémos vencer!
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Message 1698816 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 22:47:31 UTC

Tomorrow we watch the elected leaders of Europe defend the undefendable and rationalize their ignorance. It's going to be a sad sad day in history.

Even Angela Merkel, it is reported, has privately told MPs that, as far as she is concerned, Alexis Tsipras has simply driven his country into the wall
-BBC

Lady's got class (and solidarity)

/s

--------

Alex over and out

PS Hej Sten! Lovely to have you back :)
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Message 1698819 - Posted: 5 Jul 2015, 22:53:42 UTC - in response to Message 1698816.  

Tomorrow we watch the elected leaders of Europe defend the undefendable and rationalize their ignorance. It's going to be a sad sad day in history.

Even Angela Merkel, it is reported, has privately told MPs that, as far as she is concerned, Alexis Tsipras has simply driven his country into the wall
-BBC

Lady's got class (and solidarity)

/s

--------

Alex over and out

PS Hej Sten! Lovely to have you back :)

Thanks Alex. I usually do not post in the infected politics forum, but this thread, I just couldn't stay out of. Congratz to Greece, for flipping the finger at the EU crime syndicate. (F'ing capitalistic fascists)
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Message 1698879 - Posted: 6 Jul 2015, 3:22:23 UTC

Can I join in? It has been a wonderful day today. Congratulations also to Greece for having the guts to fight back.

Nice link with Allende

Victor Jara-Venceremos
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