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Je suis Varoufakis :)
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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24875 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
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shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Damn, I new I was bad at conveying my thoughts, but I had no idea HOW bad! ...you are suggesting that our governments are part of some malicious conspiracy to destroy Greece Where the hell did that come from? :) I'm allergic to conspiracies too. No, I can narrow this down to Schauble. I think (so far) this mess is 90% on him. And yes, he really does have that kind of power unfortunately. Do I think he is malicious? You bet your ass I do. I've seen many an interview... the guy doesn't sound like he likes people very much and Greeks seem to disgust him. This is not about politics. The dude has managed to pummel a Centrist government into oblivion, then a Right, and soon maybe a Left one too. You'd need to get your head checked if you'd trust this guy to know the meaning of the word solidarity. Krugman and Stiglitz are both Nobel laureates in economics. They are just a couple of insanely good economists on the planet that keep calling Germany crazy. But I'm guessing they really mean Schauble and can't single him out because it might be seen as slander or uncool or something. Michiel, I do not consider Jeroen "your boy" at all. I managed to confuse you when I said that, I know (it was a play on the "you vs. us" thing you keep doing). He is now a eurocrat. Your country has lost him. In any case the fact that he's Dutch is irrelevant in my head. He could be Greek for all I care and he'd still be a psycho. Oh, and I've got some Dutch blood running in my veins if that helps (and Irish, and Scottish, and Greek). --- Greece has been asked a simple question: Do you think the arbitrary new measures are sound or shall we put up a fight for something that makes a little more sense? But Jean-Claude Juncker, our glorious president, the man that turned Luxembourg into one giant fakelaki, a weirdo lush that realistically belongs behind bars... throws a tantrum and "Nooooooooooooo, you are voting for in or out!". And then all hell breaks loose. Now even the Greeks don't know what they are voting for :( |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Joseph E. Stiglitz Professor at Columbia University and a Nobel Laureate in Economics Europe's Attack on Greek Democracy NEW YORK -- The rising crescendo of bickering and acrimony within Europe might seem to outsiders to be the inevitable result of the bitter endgame playing out between Greece and its creditors. In fact, European leaders are finally beginning to reveal the true nature of the ongoing debt dispute, and the answer is not pleasant: it is about power and democracy much more than money and economics. [though I'm pretty sure that's "it is about power and money much more than democracy and economics" - Alex] Of course, the economics behind the program that the "troika" (the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund) foisted on Greece five years ago has been abysmal, resulting in a 25 percent decline in the country's GDP. I can think of no depression, ever, that has been so deliberate and had such catastrophic consequences: Greece's rate of youth unemployment, for example, now exceeds 60 percent. It is startling that the troika has refused to accept responsibility for any of this or admit how bad its forecasts and models have been. But what is even more surprising is that Europe's leaders have not even learned. The troika is still demanding that Greece achieve a primary budget surplus (excluding interest payments) of 3.5 percent of GDP by 2018. Economists around the world have condemned that target as punitive, because aiming for it will inevitably result in a deeper downturn. Indeed, even if Greece's debt is restructured beyond anything imaginable, the country will remain in depression if voters there commit to the troika's target in the snap referendum to be held this weekend. In terms of transforming a large primary deficit into a surplus, few countries have accomplished anything like what the Greeks have achieved in the last five years. And, though the cost in terms of human suffering has been extremely high, the Greek government's recent proposals went a long way toward meeting its creditors' demands. We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors -- including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries' banking systems. The IMF and the other "official" creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as-usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece. But, again, it's not about the money. It's about using "deadlines" to force Greece to knuckle under, and to accept the unacceptable -- not only austerity measures, but other regressive and punitive policies. But why would Europe do this? Why are European Union leaders resisting the referendum and refusing even to extend by a few days the June 30 deadline for Greece's next payment to the IMF? Isn't Europe all about democracy? |
betreger Send message Joined: 29 Jun 99 Posts: 11358 Credit: 29,581,041 RAC: 66 |
Alex speaking as an economist the Euro is a bad idea without a central bank and a common government. As far as the consequences of the demands being put on Greece they are so recessionary the failure of the economy is guaranteed. On the other hand Greece does need to clean up it's act. There is too much tax evasion, too many non competitive factors, and too much corruption. The traditional way of doing business in Greece can not survive against a more robust EU. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24875 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Straight from a horse's mouth... EU warns of Armageddon "Romano Prodi, former chief of the European Commission and Italy's ex-premier, said it is the EU's own survival that is now a stake as the botched handling of the Greek crisis escalates into a catastrophe. "If the EU cannot resolve a small problem the size of Greece, what is the point of Europe?"" "It has emerged that European members on the board of the International Monetary Fund tried to suppress the publication of a report by the IMF showing that Greece's debt is "unsustainable" and that the country is in grave need of debt relief. This validates the claim by Syriza that a deal without debt restructuring fails to go to the root of the problem, and merely ensures another crisis later" ...it's amazing how many blind there are at the top. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
The EU has known about the Greece bad economy for years. But nothing has happened. In a report by the Greek Finance Ministry described the situation. In the years 2004-09, in public expenditure (interest rates on government debt are not included) rosed 87 percent, but tax revenues rose only by 31 percent. Greece's government debt as a percentage of GDP from 2004 to 2014. Now about 171% ! http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/tgm/table.do?tab=table&init=1&language=en&pcode=teina225&plugin=1 |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
That presumes that the EU did not move its position during the negotiations, which is blatantly false. Although it the current narrative set up by the Greek government. In other words, they are lying to you. Then the whole INTJ thread went waaay over your head :) I've got a built-in radar for bull which, more importantly, has served me well. I'm the guy that takes a perverse pleasure in being wrong. Because I know it means I just learned something new. "Winning" (for the sake of it) does not interest me at all. Yeap, I'll roll over like a puppy on the right facts. But it takes a MajorKong mop-the-floor-with-you-while-providing-you-with-a-mountain-of-data-you-didn't-know-existed kind of approach to get through to me. Your overused generic fallback of "it's all just politics" cannot be applied to every single case. Even if it is true in most! :) But anyway, that's all personal and you are not obliged to believe a single word of it. The point is: Actually it's you that has been lied to this time. Though I admit that technically it's not called lying but "being played for a fool" or whatever. Which in my book is the worst kind of lying (but anyway)... Since you appear to be a kind, fair, level-headed person it appears to me you sometimes fall in the trap of subconsciously thinking others are too. Now don't worry, consciously I already know you don't believe that at all. Because the only narrative I heard from the "government" was that: a) (as Krugman put it in link above) the goalposts kept being moved and b) it was irrelevant anyway because there weren't many (any?) bullet points on the list that made any sense. Which is why a lot of economists inside and out of the EU where FURIOUS. That tends to happen when you insult the intelligence of a smart person :) The fact that the long list of arbitrary demands was not backed by ANY kind of analysis (not to mention we've all completely forgot what guarantees mean) screams of hubris. But don't worry... the core of the EU is going above and beyond the call of duty to install a technocrat that will hammer out all the craziness through in days. At which point Golden Dawn and other lunatics watch their popularity skyrocket while the EU (maybe even you too Michiel) washes their hands of having anything to do with it. You are grossly underestimating just how crazy these few clowns in charge are acting right now. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
After a quarter of all the votes have been counted has the "no" side 60.6 percent of the votes and the "yes" side 39.4 percent. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30608 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
it's amazing how many blind there are at the top. Greed is Good! |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
όχi. Sounds almost like Oh Shit. Well. Greece had it coming... Lucky me that I don't live in the euro-zone, EMU. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24875 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Oxi, oxi, oxi. Give Großdeutschland the finger. Well that's the G from PIGS giving Europe the bird, now all we need is PIS to do the same & it's goodbye EU :-) |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
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shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
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shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Statement by the European Commission following the referendum in Greece "The European Commission takes note of and respects the result of the referendum in Greece." AAAAAAAAAAAAAhhaaaaaaaahaahaaAAAaahahaha!!!! I don't think that word means what they think it means!!! Who's in the mood for a round of 18 TINAs screaming? :D Spoiler: Slovak FinMin first one to shriek like a loony from Arkham! :D |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Wolfgang my dear chap, can I have one of these with Varoufakis on it please? :D |
shizaru Send message Joined: 14 Jun 04 Posts: 1130 Credit: 1,967,904 RAC: 0 |
Tomorrow we watch the elected leaders of Europe defend the undefendable and rationalize their ignorance. It's going to be a sad sad day in history. Even Angela Merkel, it is reported, has privately told MPs that, as far as she is concerned, Alexis Tsipras has simply driven his country into the wall -BBC Lady's got class (and solidarity) /s -------- Alex over and out PS Hej Sten! Lovely to have you back :) |
Hev Send message Joined: 4 Jun 05 Posts: 1118 Credit: 598,303 RAC: 0 |
Can I join in? It has been a wonderful day today. Congratulations also to Greece for having the guts to fight back. Nice link with Allende Victor Jara-Venceremos |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24875 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Some reporters seem to live in cloud cuckoo land if they think that the If "Little" Greece can stand up to the bullies... ..."EU leaders were so furious at the calling of the referendum — which, as one finance minister put it, entrusted complicated questions to ‘the common people’ — that they moved openly to oust Alexis Tsipras’s government." Just wondering if that Finance Minister ever worked for the CIA. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
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Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24875 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Now that's a real politician. "Soon after the announcement of the referendum results, I was made aware of a certain preference by some Eurogroup participants, and assorted ‘partners’, for my… ‘absence’ from its meetings; an idea that the Prime Minister judged to be potentially helpful to him in reaching an agreement. For this reason I am leaving the Ministry of Finance today." "And I shall wear the creditors’ loathing with pride." I hope that when this issue is all done & dusted, he returns to scare the bejesus out of those a******s in Brussels. |
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