I found a type of flexible photovoltaic panel on Amazon 144w each, I also figured out that I could use 30-44 of these, 30 I think could go on My peaked roof, each panel is 15.5"x216"(18') in size and puts out 24vdc, each has a positive and a negative MC4 connector to connect to other panels or to extension cables or to combiners, which then I gather connects to a DC to AC Inverter of the proper rating.

5 panels wired to each other make 120vdc.

44 such panels together should output over a month 1,330.56Kw(144w*44=6336w/1000=6.336Kw[per day]*7hrs*30days=1,330.56Kw), the panels are ideal for a roof like mine, since I have a metal roof and the panels attach to the roof in a 'peel and stick' manner, currently the panels are about $250 each before any tax and/or shipping.

As to how to wire the panels up properly I'm not sure, since I do know something about electrical wiring, but not about wiring up panels properly, this link does help some: Learn About Wiring Solar Panels And Batteries

From what I've read flexible panels aren't as efficient as crystalline panels, but that's what most solar installers install, not the flexible type. Oh and the connectors lock in place after being connected, to unlock a connector from another connector requires an MC4 tool. as to if an installer will install panels that are customer bought, that I don't know, being in a mobile home park has its own complications, I wonder what would happen if some people saw an electrical meter moving backwards? I think I might talk to the park manager about this, I know to install this I'd need a construction permit at the least and being a grid tie in, what would SCE say? Like I said, sounds complicated, in more than one way. Needless to say I won't be buying one next month, though I could, I just have other things to get that are more important for the time being.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Sounds like an interesting project. I occasionally see these on roofs, but I've never talked to anyone about how cost-effective over the long haul they really are.

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The mind is a weird and mysterious place

Sounds like an interesting project. I occasionally see these on roofs, but I've never talked to anyone about how cost-effective over the long haul they really are.

It means lowering ones electric bill, since one is feeding this solar generated electric power back into the grid and as result the meter runs backwards, solar is worth doing in My mind, the Gov of CA Jerry Brown announced a goal of 50% alternative energy, Germany out does the whole USA and is at the latitude of Canada, Germany shut down several Nuclear power plants(I don't know if this was cause they're old or whatnot), solar doesn't pollute, I can't say anything about how the panels are made, since nothing's perfect in this transition away from fossil fuel based energy production and residential solar in the US has been legal to deploy for quite some time.

From what I've read, I'd have to wire 5 in series to make 120v, then wire each group of 5 in parallel to not exceed that 120v, since each makes 24v, series would be + wire to - wire.

I did find a place that makes heavy duty step ladders in a 500lb weight rating, that range from 4' tall to 12' tall(about $145 to $406). Though I'd not be able to get on to the roof, since I don't know how much weight the roof would support.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

I just wonder how long it takes on average to recoup an investment.

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The mind is a weird and mysterious place

I just wonder how long it takes on average to recoup an investment.

Even way up north here we get estimates of
about fifteen years for this conversion.

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I just wonder how long it takes on average to recoup an investment.

What's your electric bill like?

If I had the room I'd buy the 1st 30, one at a time, but I'd need a 7600w inverter and a breaker box with the right size breaker or breakers depending on how this would be wired by an electrician. I think 30 is the capacity of My roof, I'd have to measure the house's length, its width and measure from the peak to the edge of the roof, to figure out the exact amount, I do have a 25' tape measure, just no ladder that's any good... Being 15.5" wide by 18' long, 5 rows of 3 on each side of the peak should be feasible, maybe. The other 14 could go on a purpose built car port or a long version of the one I have, since that would fit on a longer version of My 11' wide carport roof, the 7 rows of 2 panels would be 108.5" wide or about 9'0.5", so there would be room as is for 1 row of 7 currently, almost doubling the length to about 40' would be enough for all 15 panels, plus I could replace one section of carport roof that leaks when it rains or seal the leaky carport roof on one end. The lines in bold below and sized to 29 represent the solar panels as they would be lined up. The 45 panels here would be 6480 watts and I think 54 amps total.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

I just wonder how long it takes on average to recoup an investment.

Even way up north here we get estimates of
about fifteen years for this conversion.

That's why I'd buy a panel a month and then save up the almost $2000 for a 7600w 120vac inverter, then I'd need a solar installer to install them, plus a construction permit for installing these and the inverter and any other needed equipment, once in place these panels would not be going anywhere and would be a part of My roof.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Title edit.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Every house is different. I have to figure in
not just cost per year, but more importantly
how long am I going to be here in future. If
I had the money I would do it on the morrow.

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Every house is different. I have to figure in
not just cost per year, but more importantly
how long am I going to be here in future. If
I had the money I would do it on the morrow.

Agreed, My having a house hooked up to a sub meter doesn't help, since I'm not a Southern California Edison customer, I'm technically the customer of the park, that's a stupid fiction, since the park doesn't make the power, the park only transmits the power I use to Me, I don't know if or what the general manager will say, but She is in charge, so I won't get an 'I don't know about that, let Me get back to you' type answer, at least I don't think I would.

I am probably going to be here until I am at least 62 in 2022 or 7 more years here.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Nice project Vic.
Quite expensive, and needs a bit of thought on getting them all onto the roof - not just the ladders to get up there, but also making sure the roof will stand the extra weight.

A couple of things to look out for.
Have you checked the open circuit voltage of the particular panel - there are a few suppliers of similar looking panels quoted as being "12V", or "24V" but have an open circuit voltage of double that, or that is the open circuit voltage and the peak load voltage is about two-thirds the quoted voltage - neither of which is of much use when you feed them into an inverter.

Solar panels work far better when feeding the load (battery bank or inverter) via an "Maximum Power Point" controller - these boxes keep the panel output (voltage) at the optimum level, so you get the most power out.

When doing an installation do remember that solar panels produce power as soon as they are exposed to light - How I learnt that is a story for the "Berks are Us" thread!!!

Some panel types have a reduced life in storage, particularly when "stored active" - that is laid out and exposed to light but with no applied load.

Do make sure the inverter has a pure sine wave output, and a built in transfer switch. And if possible is an "auto synch" type that will synchronise with the mains so the change-over or add-in will take place smoothly.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Flexcible panels glued directly to a steel roof could suffer overheating problems, especially in the desert. Ridgid panels are usually mounted on frames with a sufficient air space for proper cooling and maximum effeciency. It would a good idea to investigate this Vic.

The roof is good idea for a location. If you got the room they can go anywhere the light is. The next interesting thing is after installation. How to clean them. Bird poop and dust can block the sun as well as ice and snow in the winter.

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Flexible panels glued directly to a steel roof could suffer overheating problems, especially in the desert. Rigid panels are usually mounted on frames with a sufficient air space for proper cooling and maximum efficiency. It would a good idea to investigate this Vic.

I found this info from a website Here. This describes My roof pretty well, mine is sloping with some white roof compound, I didn't see any warnings

Many metal roofs today are available with cool roof coatings that are Energy Star approved and LEED compliant. These designations indicate the metal roofs have high solar reflectivity and emissivity that can keep the interior of a building cool in the summer. In sunny, warm weather conditions, we’ve found that the panels of a crystalline system mounted on a standing seam metal roof further reduce the heat factor by shading the metal roof surface. But dark blue photovoltaic laminate applied directly to the metal roof panels does not have that same ability.

Thin film PV laminates can be easily applied to curved metal roof surfaces however; they cannot be applied to metal roof panels with striations or embossing. Unlike crystalline panels, thin film laminates can be walked on without risk of breaking and they will capture the sun’s energy throughout the day even during cloudy low light conditions. In contrast, crystalline panels mounted on a standing seam metal roof will capture higher more intense amounts of energy from the sun during peak sunlight hours but not in cloudy conditions.
If you are concerned about aesthetics and maintaining the appearance of a traditional metal roof surface you may want to select thin film laminates instead of crystalline panels for your metal roof. Crystalline panels mounted on a sloped metal roof are much more noticeable from ground level then PV laminates. When applied directly to a dark colored standing seam metal roof, PV laminates are hardly discernible. Consequently, you’ll find that PV laminates are less noticeable and more aesthetic when mounted on metal roofs that are dark blue, dark green, black, dark bronze, charcoal gray, etc. and more visible when mounted on metal roof coatings that are red, white, light gray and tan.

Either way, crystalline panels or thin film laminates mounted onto a standing seam metal roof will get the job done. They are both wise and effective choices for energy savings.

From here, this sight warns not against Metal, but about an asphalt roof, plus there is a video there.

Why combine a Metal Roof with thin-film PV solar laminates?

Unlike the ubiquitous asphalt shingle roofs, modern metal roofing systems are made to last and can be considered permanent. They are manufactured using a significant proportion of recycled metal content, and are fully recyclable themselves, hence qualifying as sustainable green building materials.

When Metal meets Solar, it is a true Match!

When a metal roof is installed by a trained professional, it will last for many decades, and thus can be a permanent platform for a solar roofing system be it crystalline or a thin film PV solar.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

The roof is good idea for a location. If you got the room they can go anywhere the light is. The next interesting thing is after installation. How to clean them. Bird poop and dust can block the sun as well as ice and snow in the winter.

Being the desert most birds avoid metal roofs, they can be hot and have slick surfaces, in My case since My roof has a peak going down the entire length of the mobile home, the surface offers nothing for a bird, they like trees better cooler and shadier, I don't have any place under My car port for birds to nest either, I had to seal off the access with some old useless CD's to do that with, but that isn't a problem. Oh and I don't have any trees near My place, the nearest is about maybe 40' from the rear of My place, other trees are farther away, much farther.

We get a decent amount of wind from the west and east, the roof stays pretty clean.

Taken a few years back, but essentially unchanged, the awning over the front door is gone cause of some gusty winds, before the mobile home next door was moved in to provide a big wind break, I have a home on either side now, so winds have less of an effect now.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

Nice project Vic.
Quite expensive, and needs a bit of thought on getting them all onto the roof - not just the ladders to get up there, but also making sure the roof will stand the extra weight.

A couple of things to look out for.
Have you checked the open circuit voltage of the particular panel - there are a few suppliers of similar looking panels quoted as being "12V", or "24V" but have an open circuit voltage of double that, or that is the open circuit voltage and the peak load voltage is about two-thirds the quoted voltage - neither of which is of much use when you feed them into an inverter.

Solar panels work far better when feeding the load (battery bank or inverter) via an "Maximum Power Point" controller - these boxes keep the panel output (voltage) at the optimum level, so you get the most power out.

When doing an installation do remember that solar panels produce power as soon as they are exposed to light - How I learnt that is a story for the "Berks are Us" thread!!!

Some panel types have a reduced life in storage, particularly when "stored active" - that is laid out and exposed to light but with no applied load.

Do make sure the inverter has a pure sine wave output, and a built in transfer switch. And if possible is an "auto synch" type that will synchronise with the mains so the change-over or add-in will take place smoothly.

Thanks Chris S. I'm getting sleepy.

24V seems to be the highest and this is the largest Thin-Film PV Solar Laminate maker, they're based out of the Philippines, it's a 'UniSolar PVL-144 Laminate, Amorphous 24V Solar Panel 144 Watts - Peel & Stick'.

A 48V panel wouldn't make 120v, 115v or even 110v, which is the voltage over here, 48v x 5 would make 240v which is not used in US residential areas.

The pure sine wave I do know about, I've been doing some reading here and there, I'd only get an inverter that said it provided a pure sine wave, since this is needed for conversion of DC power to AC power.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

since one is feeding this solar generated electric power back into the grid and as result the meter runs backwards,

That is not supposed to happen Vic. metersThe idea is that if solar panels generate all the power you need, you dont need to buy any from the grid, when it isn't enough you topup from the grid. If you generate more than you use you can sell the surplus back to the grid. Small installations have a smart meter that does that for you, larger installations have a separate output meter.

The setup in the UK will be different to the USA but here is how we do it. The feed in tariff scheme (FIT) is backed by the government and the big 6 energy suppliers must by law provide it, the smaller ones don't have to. You have to register for the scheme, be accepted, and the panels have to be Fits certified, and installed by a certified Fits installer.

If you rent your home you can't install solar panels, unless you negotiate this with your landlord. If your property is leasehold, you'll need to get permission from the freeholder. The installation typically has a 15-20 year payback period, and the inverters need replacing every 12 years.

44 x $250 = $11,000 plux tax and shipping. Then there is the inverter, plus the cabling, plus the control console, plus installation costs. Could be up to $15,000.

Last year you tried to get a mortgage to buy a house, but weren't eligible for enough money, so you decided that you would say in the Park for another 7 years, then walk away and just give the home back to the park. Even if the park allowed you to do it, you would never get your money back, and where is the money coming from anyway.

One moment you seem quite happy telling us all about all the computer cases and bits you want to buy, plus an expensive long term project for new doors and windows, plus a fish tank, so quite why you suddenly have a bee in your bonnet about solar energy isn't clear. If won't cost in for you, it is unsuitable, and you can't afford it. I think you need to be a bit realistic Vic.

Needless to say I won't be buying one next month, though I could, I just have other things to get that are more important for the time being.

Nice to daydream in detail though isn't it?

Meters running backwards with solar does happen here, maybe it doesn't over there, but then this isn't the UK.

I own My home, rent the land under it.

You say I can't afford it? bah humbug. By the time I'm ready, My credit cards limit could be as high as $3,000.00, last month My limit went from $391 to $691...

Where is the money coming from? My check, I do get enough to make repairs and such, plus a good amount goes to housing expenses, I could afford to buy 1 thin film panel a month, on Amazon the Uni-Solar PVL-144 thin film panel is $268.92 with tax and FREE shipping, I can afford one, if I want to to right now, but I choose not to, the Inverter I could save up for as it's less than $1900.00 The panels can be found on ebay for $225.00 each, before shipping, if any shipping or tax that is. I do have other stuff to do first.

I qualified for a mortgage of $49,618.00, not quite enough to buy where I wanted to move to yet, so I'm income challenged for the moment, big deal...

Please don't criticize Me, I don't do that to you Chris.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

For most states in the USA

Net metering is a billing mechanism that credits solar energy system owners for the electricity they add to the grid. For example, if a residential customer has a PV system on the home's rooftop, it may generate more electricity than the home uses during daylight hours. If the home is net-metered, the electricity meter will run backwards to provide a credit against what electricity is consumed at night or other periods where the home's electricity use exceeds the system's output. Customers are only billed for their "net" energy use. On average, only 20-40% of a solar energy system’s output ever goes into the grid. Exported solar electricity serves nearby customers’ loads.

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7yrs is a long ways off and I might or might not, the park did say I could live out the rest of My days here.

Also this thread does do one thing, it says if I can afford to do this, anyone can, $249 for a 144 watt Unisolar panel 24v/42v open, that is about $1.73 a watt.

If I were to install panels, these would be on the roof, I will ask as I said, since I know who is in charge here.


Oh and Unisolar will still be making panels, they and their parent company have both filed for Bankruptcy and details are Here.

On the roof of the new production hall for Boeing's 787
Dreamliner in South Carolina, more than 18,000 solar panels
from Unisolar provide more than 3950 megawatt-hours per
year with a capacity of 2.6 megawatts. Photo: Boeing

Another solar firm has run out of money – this time, United Solar Ovonic (Unisolar) of Auburn Hills, Michigan. The US manufacturer of flexible thin-film modules was taken down when its parent company, Energy Conversion Devices (ECD), filed for bankruptcy itself yesterday. ECD president Julian Hawkins says the subsidiary also had to file for bankruptcy because the Group's financial position would prevent Unisolar from making the investments necessary for future business.

But unlike Solyndra, Solar Millennium and Solon, all of whom went out of business last year, Unisolar will continue production. The firm is to be sold within the next 90 days to Quarton Partners of Birmingham, Michigan. Hawkins stated that sales process launched yesterday would allow ECD to maximize value for its shareholders and ensure that Unisolar remains viable and successful over the long term. Nonetheless, the parent company will retain the nearly 70 patents that its subsidiary holds in the US.

Hawkins says he is still optimistic about Unisolar's future. "We are convinced that there is a strong, sustainable market for Unisolar products," he explains, adding that "flexible next-generation photovoltaic modules from United Solar Ovonic with an efficiency of 12 percent are the result of 25 years of experience in photovoltaics." But it remains to be seen whether production costs will actually be competitive. Last year, the firm began to stumble – after all, the price is crucial on the thin-film market in particular.

From what I've read one can actually step on these flexible panels, Crystalline panels you can not step on, they're too fragile.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's

I could afford to buy 1 thin film panel a month

The link to meters IS in the UK. That is 44 months of panels or nearly 4 years, you're supposed to be moving in 7 years. You are not being criticized, you are getting advice that if you look more into it you will likely find that it is unrealistic for you. If you own your own home and rent the ground underneath it, that is called Leasehold in the UK, and you pay a small annual Ground Rent to the Freeholder. You would need their permission to install solar panels upon their land. There may also be local covenants on the park site that preclude that.

On average, only 20-40% of a solar energy system’s output ever goes into the grid.

As I understand it, you would be about right. Generally speaking it is only suitable for a small number of domestic applications, but large businesses can write off the installation costs to tax relief, and can afford a 20 year payback period. I also should have mentioned that the UK Fits scheme also depends upon the energy rating of your house which has to be assessed as well before you are accepted.

A couple of years ago the Feed In Tariff rates were quite generous to offset the high initial cost of the panels. But they have now been substantially reduced because of the much cheaper panels being sourced from the Far East. Some installations did cost in but not now. I would suggest that at present it is not a good time to buy in until the energy market stabilises a bit more and, manufacturing costs level out. The new UK Government in May could scrap Fits, who knows?

Of course in the UK We have the Economy 7 electricity meters previously called White Meters, they can often save more money, than all this solar stuff. Yup it is a minefield!

There are no covenants and such like that here, the park was started in the 50's as a pure rental park and has changed hands and managers many times. I think there are only 3 mobile homes here that are owned by someone other than the park, a lady nicknamed Gabby, who I lived next to for 2 years and Myself, there might be more than 1 other, that mobile home has a green asphalt roof and is well maintained(unlike most in the park), but I don't know for sure.

There is a petition online for a Residential Feed in Tariff for CA homeowners, right now one is given credits I've read, but can not sell any excess electricity to the Utility, at least not yet. Businesses can do this of course. Yes I signed the petition already. The excess electricity is a Free Bonus to the Utility Company.

That's why I signed a petition to California Energy Commission, California Public Utility Commission and Governor Jerry Brown, which says:

"The California Feed in Tariff allows eligible customers' generators to enter into 10-, 15-, or 20-year contracts with their utility companies to sell the electricity produced by renewable energy systems. Let California home owners take advantage of the Feed in Tariff, allowing them to over-size their solar systems."

Will you sign the petition too? Click here to add your name:

http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/let-california-home-owners?source=s.fwd&r_by=6113093

Thanks!

Oh and a few years back I had to have My roof repaired, when that small awning I mentioned earlier walked across My roof, so someone can stand up there, just not Me.

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The T1 Trust, PRR T1 Class 4-4-4-4 #5550, 1 of America's First HST's