At some point, the call has to jump off the internet onto my copper pair telephone line. The telephone company won't let that happen unless money is involved somewhere. Currently I don't think there is fiber in my neighborhood and if they offer it to me, I am going to avoid it as long as possible. I don't like the idea of the phone going out if you have a long power outage.

You might think so, but think mandatory network neutrality. The phone company is essentially forced to connect that call, and don't forget the point it jumps off the internet is in the local phone company building where your phone line also ends. Best the phone company can get is a flat rate per line from the ISP and a few shekels a month for the equipment rack. If the ISP makes one call or a million the amount the phone company gets is the same! Essentially it is the same as MCI at the time of the ATT breakup and their long distance service. It cuts the phone company out.

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Those "offices" are only the size of a single machine rack, and frequently they do that in the phone company building, talk about local calls!

With local loop unbundling in the UK, BT has to let 3rd party telecoms companies install their kit in BT buildings for the interface to the national comms backbone.

What Gary is getting at is that the phone companies are cut out entirely with Voice over Internet Protocol. VoIP simply uses a standard internet connection and that's it. Think Skype. In fact, every "smart" cell phone is actually VoIP. Most desk phones in corporate offices are VoIP phones.

These call centers use standard internet connections and special software to do what they do. The phone company does not get a cut of any profits because they are not using the phone company's phone network.

At some point, the call has to jump off the internet onto my copper pair telephone line. The telephone company won't let that happen unless money is involved somewhere. Currently I don't think there is fiber in my neighborhood and if they offer it to me, I am going to avoid it as long as possible. I don't like the idea of the phone going out if you have a long power outage.

Agreed... but at that point it is between ISPs and Telcos. Hardly a position to say that the Telcos are getting a cut of this scam or even enough to encourage it to remain profitable. Nor is it really the Telco's responsibility to monitor every call going through their network to punish those that do this kind of thing. One NSA is enough, we don't need every public or private entity playing big brother.

Those "offices" are only the size of a single machine rack, and frequently they do that in the phone company building, talk about local calls!

With local loop unbundling in the UK, BT has to let 3rd party telecoms companies install their kit in BT buildings for the interface to the national comms backbone.

What Gary is getting at is that the phone companies are cut out entirely with Voice over Internet Protocol. VoIP simply uses a standard internet connection and that's it. Think Skype. In fact, every "smart" cell phone is actually VoIP. Most desk phones in corporate offices are VoIP phones.

These call centers use standard internet connections and special software to do what they do. The phone company does not get a cut of any profits because they are not using the phone company's phone network.

At some point, the call has to jump off the internet onto my copper pair telephone line. The telephone company won't let that happen unless money is involved somewhere. Currently I don't think there is fiber in my neighborhood and if they offer it to me, I am going to avoid it as long as possible. I don't like the idea of the phone going out if you have a long power outage.

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Those "offices" are only the size of a single machine rack, and frequently they do that in the phone company building, talk about local calls!

With local loop unbundling in the UK, BT has to let 3rd party telecoms companies install their kit in BT buildings for the interface to the national comms backbone.

What Gary is getting at is that the phone companies are cut out entirely with Voice over Internet Protocol. VoIP simply uses a standard internet connection and that's it. Think Skype. In fact, every "smart" cell phone is actually VoIP. Most desk phones in corporate offices are VoIP phones.

These call centers use standard internet connections and special software to do what they do. The phone company does not get a cut of any profits because they are not using the phone company's phone network.

The other day one of these pests called me....

After a few minutes of his waffle I cut in with "You do realise that you are being charged at £450 per minute for this call don't you?". The line went dead very quickly :-)

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Those "offices" are only the size of a single machine rack, and frequently they do that in the phone company building, talk about local calls!

With local loop unbundling in the UK, BT has to let 3rd party telecoms companies install their kit in BT buildings for the interface to the national comms backbone.

Gary I suspect the big telcoms could end this - if they wanted to. They are getting too big a cut to try and stop this sort of thing.

Cut? What cut? They don't get to charge long distance for a VOIP call. The VOIP company puts up enough "offices" that all calls into the PSTN are local free calls. The phone company is completely cut out of the money! The reality is it costs as much to send you an e-mail as it does to call you via VOIP. The call centers are offshore so they can get cheap labor. They couldn't exist if not for the internet. The IP in voIP. Those "offices" are only the size of a single machine rack, and frequently they do that in the phone company building, talk about local calls!

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Precisely.

Gary I suspect the big telcoms could end this - if they wanted to. They are getting too big a cut to try and stop this sort of thing.

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The trouble is that all these people work for foreign call centres where your own countries legislation has no legal effect.

In Canada more and more of these calls show up as a Canadian phone number, even though they plainly come from somewhere else. Our local phone companies make this possible, for a fee. Lots of blame to go around, in my opinion.

Same with 1-900 numbers that leave you a message, saying to call for your free prize. They put you on hold, you phone number gets billed by the minute, and the phone company gets a cut of this. Who is the crook here?

Unfortunately, it isn't the phone company
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki/view/Setting+Callerid
that allows this. It is the VOIP company.

I'd support legislation that the VOIP company must prevent telemarketing calls to the National Do Not Call list and cell phones or it could not connect to the PSTN. If they didn't they would be the party making the call and have to pay the per call fine for calling the number. As their equipment is in the country they are calling, they would not be immune from tort. The phone companies would love it and VOIP is killing their landline business anyway.

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The trouble is that all these people work for foreign call centres where your own countries legislation has no legal effect.

In Canada more and more of these calls show up as a Canadian phone number, even though they plainly come from somewhere else. Our local phone companies make this possible, for a fee. Lots of blame to go around, in my opinion.

Same with 1-900 numbers that leave you a message, saying to call for your free prize. They put you on hold, you phone number gets billed by the minute, and the phone company gets a cut of this. Who is the crook here?

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See this situation from my users all the time at work....some catch it, some let them in and then we spend hours cleaning up the mess.

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"IP spoofing"

That's nothing, I got a call once that showed
up as being called from my telephone. Of course
we monitor all calls so only the ones we answer
are the ones from who we want to talk to. If things
get important enough, they will send a cop to let
us know what up....

Have a friend who has been down that route.

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"IP spoofing"

That's nothing, I got a call once that showed
up as being called from my telephone. Of course
we monitor all calls so only the ones we answer
are the ones from who we want to talk to. If things
get important enough, they will send a cop to let
us know what up....

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And yes, Indian call centres are the worst in the world, not only for scammers but also for outsourced tech support.

Unfortunately my company loves them because they're cheap and they can provide good numbers for their performance metrics. Sadly, ask them to do any critical thinking or think outside the box to solve a problem and most of them are completely lost.

To be fair though, I've seen the same behavior from our local Internal IT Call Center (Helpdesk). The job requirements don't call for critical thinking though, so you get what you pay for. They simply want someone who can answer a phone and be friendly while following a script.

There is something called "IP spoofing" yes. But if the whole shebang wasn't financially viable, then they simply wouldn't do it. And yes, Indian call centres are the worst in the world, not only for scammers but also for outsourced tech support.

The trouble is that all these people work for foreign call centres where your own countries legislation has no legal effect. A lot are in Eastern Europe or the far East. The local governments there have no interest in stopping it because it brings income into their country.

Modern phones can block all "number witheld" and "international" calls from getting through. I only give my mobile phone as a contact point not my land line, I also registered with the TPS, and am ex-directory, it all helps. But as more and more people buy online via the web, more people give their home number, and don't tick the box "don't pass on my details to associated companies".

The problem with that is most of them use IP based phone numbers so they can show as calling from anywhere they want.

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Just had one of these on the phone to me calling themselves windows , knew it was a scam before reading this thread but he ended up getting a bit aggressive towards me and I would be cut off from the internet , I just told him to go forth and multiply and hung up :-) , hes rang back twice but the last time I got his number and its from india

It always sounds like there's a million people scamming in the background on these calls. I just can't imagine going to work everyday at a call center devoted to ripping people off.

Not all of them know they're scamming people. Most of them are fresh out of school young adults in India looking for a job, and the tech industry pays extremely well over there (sidenote: I know someone that works on our India team where I work; she has a degree in Biology but works in our Network Operations Center).

According to a report on a sting operation done by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission (FTC):

The Windows tech support scammers all follow the same general script. There are nuances and differences, but the process of convincing people who answer the phone that their PCs are riddled with viruses never changes too much.
You might think that if you spent your whole day calling people on the phone to scam them, if your paycheck depended upon fooling the gullible, that you'd be pretty good at detecting a scam yourself. But ultimately, the people doing the scamming aren't likely to be the masterminds. They're just the work-a-day drones doing their employer's bidding—perfect targets for the undercover investigators at the FTC.

When the FTC announced its crackdown on the tech support scammers, the agency played a recorded undercover call but otherwise didn't spend much time talking about how they tracked the defendants down in the first place. Court documents the FTC subsequently sent our way show that it was rather easy. Or, more precisely, once the difficult groundwork of tracking down the scammers had been laid, the scammers walked right into the FTC’s trap, as gullible and helpless as the victims whose bank accounts they raided.

The trouble is that all these people work for foreign call centres where your own countries legislation has no legal effect. A lot are in Eastern Europe or the far East. The local governments there have no interest in stopping it because it brings income into their country.

Modern phones can block all "number witheld" and "international" calls from getting through. I only give my mobile phone as a contact point not my land line, I also registered with the TPS, and am ex-directory, it all helps. But as more and more people buy online via the web, more people give their home number, and don't tick the box "don't pass on my details to associated companies".