Racist? [yes you are]

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Profile The Simonator
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Message 1690922 - Posted: 13 Jun 2015, 18:05:56 UTC - in response to Message 1690896.  

Racist? Or very creative job applicant?

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/naacp-leader-posing-black-woman-outed-parents-white-video

I can't get my head around this story. I am very interested to know what was going through her head. From the looks of it, it had nothing to do with a job application, but started when she was at college.

What happened to imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?

This picture of her father has been circulating on the internet:

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Message 1690925 - Posted: 13 Jun 2015, 18:13:06 UTC - in response to Message 1690922.  

Racist? Or very creative job applicant?

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/naacp-leader-posing-black-woman-outed-parents-white-video

I can't get my head around this story. I am very interested to know what was going through her head. From the looks of it, it had nothing to do with a job application, but started when she was at college.

What happened to imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?

This picture of her father has been circulating on the internet:

Ouch.

The funny thing is I can see how people would be taken in. It has been pointed out in this thread that simply having one drop of African blood is enough to define you as black.

I taught in an all black school for a while and because of racial mixing the lines would sometimes become blurred as to who was actually white and who was passing for white. I had students ask me if I were black. In another school I had a colleague who I had no idea was black until she told me, and when I saw her family I saw that she was obviously from black heritage.

My son's girlfriend is technically black, but she does not look it.

So what actually does make someone black? What made this woman think she was black of feel that she wanted so badly to be black?
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Message 1690928 - Posted: 13 Jun 2015, 18:17:07 UTC - in response to Message 1690922.  
Last modified: 13 Jun 2015, 18:25:52 UTC

Lenny Henry because i'm a black man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DahkwAsth-o

African blood?
But what about Viking blood?
Seems dangerous to me.

Give blood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeXf90OGTHE
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Message 1690932 - Posted: 13 Jun 2015, 18:29:59 UTC

Why It Was So Easy For Rachel Dolezal to Slip Into Black Skin

"Dolezal has spent the last few years performing blackness, a role to which she was welcomed by unknowing members of the black community. (If black privilege or even reverse racism were real, entry would’ve eluded her.) Ask anyone who believes in respectability politics -- the absurd idea that if (mostly) black people would just do the work of being whiter, racism would disappear -- if that magic trick would work for the majority of African-Americans."

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Message 1690935 - Posted: 13 Jun 2015, 18:32:17 UTC - in response to Message 1690925.  

So what actually does make someone black? What made this woman think she was black of feel that she wanted so badly to be black?

Self identification? I mean, its not uncommon for white people to act like they are black, although in most cases it ends up in them just appropriating black culture (almost every white rapper/hip hop star ever). That said, it could be that someone sincerely feels a close association to black culture, to the point they adopt it as their primary identity. If we take a look at history, there have been cases of for example British soldiers (in the days of the British empire) who went 'native' and became almost indistinguishable from actual native people. I don't think thats racist though.

Also, a lot of black people go 'white' as well. Except no one finds that in any way remarkable because our culture pretends that white is the norm and people conforming to that norm aren't really noticed.
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Message 1690938 - Posted: 13 Jun 2015, 18:36:07 UTC - in response to Message 1690925.  

So what actually does make someone black?

According to my grandparents, being from outside the town of Colne.

Seriously though, i have no idea. Perhaps we should dispense with the concept of black and white and instead use the Dulux paint chart.

My normal skin colour is A51 Fairy Wings, but since i caught the sun on Thursday my arms and neck are currently A62 Bombay Pink
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Message 1690951 - Posted: 13 Jun 2015, 19:27:56 UTC - in response to Message 1690935.  

So what actually does make someone black? What made this woman think she was black of feel that she wanted so badly to be black?

Self identification? I mean, its not uncommon for white people to act like they are black, although in most cases it ends up in them just appropriating black culture (almost every white rapper/hip hop star ever). That said, it could be that someone sincerely feels a close association to black culture, to the point they adopt it as their primary identity. If we take a look at history, there have been cases of for example British soldiers (in the days of the British empire) who went 'native' and became almost indistinguishable from actual native people. I don't think thats racist though.

Also, a lot of black people go 'white' as well. Except no one finds that in any way remarkable because our culture pretends that white is the norm and people conforming to that norm aren't really noticed.


Here is a bit more background to the story which could show that Rachel felt a close association to black culture.

Article which includes photograph of Rachel with her black husband and her adopted black siblings
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Message 1690961 - Posted: 13 Jun 2015, 19:58:54 UTC - in response to Message 1690925.  

So what actually does make someone black?

DNA? That would be the true race based definition.

Culture? Then DNA plays no role.

Self identification? Then there is no externally testable standard.

If DNA, to what %? The First Peoples tribes all have that issue as there are a dwindling number that are 100%. In the US due to slave rape there are many who are not 100% African DNA.

Old laws that said if Mommy was black, you are black, but if Mommy was white, you are white?

Good question, and there is no uniform answer.
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Message 1690965 - Posted: 13 Jun 2015, 20:11:44 UTC - in response to Message 1690928.  
Last modified: 13 Jun 2015, 20:58:27 UTC

Sorry Lenny. It should be Sir Lenny Henry.

Lenny Henry 'chuffed' over knighthood but asks: 'Do I get a land and a castle now?'
http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/lenny-henry-chuffed-over-knighthood-5852658

And speaking of blacks.
I have not met so many "blacks" in my Life.
Most of "theme" are Brown I guess.
However Jacqueline and his brother are very black.
Our dog Tosca has the same color.

Give blood.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeXf90OGTHE

And we are all descendants to African peoples from the beginning.
Svante Pääbo knows the story.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svante_P%C3%A4%C3%A4bo
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Message 1691101 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 6:52:36 UTC - in response to Message 1690961.  

So what actually does make someone black?

DNA? That would be the true race based definition.

Culture? Then DNA plays no role.

Self identification? Then there is no externally testable standard.

If DNA, to what %? The First Peoples tribes all have that issue as there are a dwindling number that are 100%. In the US due to slave rape there are many who are not 100% African DNA.

Old laws that said if Mommy was black, you are black, but if Mommy was white, you are white?

Good question, and there is no uniform answer.

Good question. Unless we wish to revert to the 'Old' American South's definitions.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Message 1691208 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 15:39:18 UTC

I became a black woman in Spokane. But, Rachel Dolezal, I was a black girl first

"Black womanhood is an identity forged in the lived experiences of black children. Anything else perpetuates society’s fetish for celebrating only parts of our bodies"

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Message 1691217 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 16:03:40 UTC - in response to Message 1691208.  

I became a black woman in Spokane. But, Rachel Dolezal, I was a black girl first

"Black womanhood is an identity forged in the lived experiences of black children. Anything else perpetuates society’s fetish for celebrating only parts of our bodies"

Thats a really uncomfortable argument. I mean, for any other type of identity, that wouldn't fly. Use that argument against trans people (and that argument has been used against trans people) and see what a can of worms it opens.

I know, people have argued that its not the same, but I'm having a hard time seeing the difference :\

Enlighten me if you do see the difference.
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Message 1691221 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 16:14:28 UTC - in response to Message 1691217.  

I became a black woman in Spokane. But, Rachel Dolezal, I was a black girl first

"Black womanhood is an identity forged in the lived experiences of black children. Anything else perpetuates society’s fetish for celebrating only parts of our bodies"

Thats a really uncomfortable argument. I mean, for any other type of identity, that wouldn't fly. Use that argument against trans people (and that argument has been used against trans people) and see what a can of worms it opens.

I know, people have argued that its not the same, but I'm having a hard time seeing the difference :\

Enlighten me if you do see the difference.

I don't have any answers for you, I am still trying to get my head around it. Those arguments have been made about transgender people, especially the men transitioning to women. I think everyone understands why a woman might want to turn into a man as there are obvious benefits that come with that. The same goes from black people trying to pass as white.

To be honest, as I feel that gender is a construct and I feel like a person first and women second, I've never understood why people feel compelled to change their gender rather than society just accepting them for who they are.

Race is a construct too, and just another way of deciding which group is "better" than another.

Sorry, I just don't have any answers here, so I am going to read both sides and think about.
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Message 1691222 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 16:15:36 UTC

Strange you don't hear a lot of race baiting going on between Asians and Caucasians in the US. I mean they have an ax to grind should they choose to do so. Brought here in the 1800's as Virtual slaves to build the railroads and as US labor, they have chosen not to portray themselves as eternal victims but rather to build on their strengths and establish businesses and grasp the 'American Dream'. A lot of the Agriculture endeavors in the US are Asian owned and run for several generations, despite initial prejudice against them.

The second major influx of Asian immigration came after the fall of Viet Nam. There were instances of prejudice in the Gulf Coast states where a lot of them settled and built successful fishing businesses. That prejudice came from those fishermen who were being overtaken in production because they were not willing to work as many hours and as hard as the Vietnamese fishermen. Those differences made very few headlines as there were no Viet Al Sharptons or Louis Farrakhans to fan the flames. They just kept their noses to the grindstone and built their lives.

The difference I see in the Black culture (and most other cultures)and Asian culture in the US is respect. Respect for each other, respect for authority, respect for family, and respect for tradition. Americas today say if it's old, throw it away and get something new. We no longer value the worth of unity but instead worship the God of diversity as an end instead of as a component of a greater inclusive society.

"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>
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Message 1691224 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 16:19:40 UTC - in response to Message 1691208.  

Ess you are aware that woman is not black . Her perants are both white and there is bit of a controversy about her as i found out on the T.v in the last couple of days .
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Message 1691225 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 16:21:19 UTC - in response to Message 1691222.  
Last modified: 14 Jun 2015, 16:31:04 UTC

...

The difference I see in the Black culture (and most other cultures)and Asian culture in the US is respect. Respect for each other, respect for authority, respect for family, and respect for tradition. Americas today say if it's old, throw it away and get something new. We no longer value the worth of unity but instead worship the God of diversity as an end instead of as a component of a greater inclusive society.

Do you think that respect or lack of it, might have something to do with the legacy of slavery?
The Asian people were not kept as property and their history and culture destroyed, their families split up and generations of women raped. I suspect that will leave a strong mark on people.

You can't compare them as they did not have the same experience. As far as I am aware the Jim Crow laws did not apply to Asians.

EDIT: I just want to clarify that I am also talking about the legacy of slavery on white people and how it formed stereotypes about black people.
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Message 1691226 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 16:21:54 UTC - in response to Message 1691224.  

Ess you are aware that woman is not black . Her perants are both white and there is bit of a controversy about her as i found out on the T.v in the last couple of days .

Glenn, seeing as that is the whole point of our discussion, I'd say I am aware.
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Message 1691227 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 16:23:39 UTC - in response to Message 1691217.  

Micheal she is not trans gender she was and all ways & has been a woman . She is also not black but is infact a white girl with white perents both her father and mother are white .
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Message 1691238 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 16:45:35 UTC - in response to Message 1691222.  

The difference I see in the Black culture (and most other cultures)and Asian culture in the US is respect.

What?
Are "Blacks" and "Asians" behaving different in the US?
I know a lot of them speaking of respect.
Rappen für mehr Respekt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKgpt_ZNmn4
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Message 1691239 - Posted: 14 Jun 2015, 16:51:16 UTC - in response to Message 1691221.  

To be honest, as I feel that gender is a construct and I feel like a person first and women second, I've never understood why people feel compelled to change their gender rather than society just accepting them for who they are.

No because now you are running the risk of saying that transgender people are essentially people who like to wear woman's clothes but who take it a step further and that if the construct of gender would be gone, they could just dress up the way they want to. Gender might be a construct, in the sense of who is allowed to wear what kind of clothes and or take what kind of roles in society. But being a woman isn't just a construct. A penis or a vagina aren't social constructs. A transgender woman isn't just a guy who has taken wearing woman's clothes to its logical conclusion, its a person who was born in the wrong type of body. So even if we get rid of the social construct of gender, trans people would still exist.

Race is a construct too, and just another way of deciding which group is "better" than another.

Hmm, maybe I see the difference now. Where as with transgender people, it isn't just about switching between the social constructs of gender (that happens perhaps more as a consequence) but actually switching between bodies as well. Race on the other hand, is purely socially constructed. Biologically there is no real difference between a white person and a black person, at least not in the way that there is a difference between a male body and a female body. So switching race would be more akin to switching religion or perhaps sub culture. Its just more contentious because we constructed race to be an inherently contentious thing.

Also, in this woman's case, it didn't help that she told a couple of pretty awful lies about her background.
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