1: Correct, but in the hands of an experienced handler, so small that it would not make a difference.

3: Correct.

2: Sorry, have to disagree here. The gun is never the danger, the holder always will be.

Who - NO ONE - was speaking of accuracy.

Except all those people that claimed shooting is totally as easy as it is in video games. And that video games somehow train you in firing an actual gun.

You have been completely incorrect regarding HOW FAST a low powered handgun can be fired by ANYONE. Even those with NO EXPERIENCE.

You brought up a revolver. Which typically fires slower if Im not mistaken. You can fire those things pretty fast, but again, that requires training and experience. Things a 12 year old child probably lacks.

A big difference between a 9mm pistol and a revolver is that the range of light bullets are much larger in caliber 9 mm in than caliber .38.
Bullets for 9mm are available from 80 grains (5.19 grams) and up, but the bullets in .38 caliber usually begins in the weights round 148 grains (9.59 grams).
But a 12 old year child is fully capable to use a pistol and kill peoples unless he has some disability of some kind.

Who - NO ONE - was speaking of accuracy.

Except all those people that claimed shooting is totally as easy as it is in video games. And that video games somehow train you in firing an actual gun.

You have been completely incorrect regarding HOW FAST a low powered handgun can be fired by ANYONE. Even those with NO EXPERIENCE.

You brought up a revolver. Which typically fires slower if Im not mistaken. You can fire those things pretty fast, but again, that requires training and experience. Things a 12 year old child probably lacks.

Why not admit you were incorrect?

Whatever, youre right, you shoot a revolver pretty quickly.

Answer: Ideology and Ego trump Facts and Truth.

What ideology?

#1 - Anyone who knows guns, knows: Revolvers fire FASTER than Semi-Automatics. Semi-Automatic's must 'Recycle' before it will fire again. The difference in speed is small, but it is A FACT.

Therefore, you will, of course, acknowledge your ignorance of the guns we are speaking of. NOT!

#2 - Firing these weapons does NOT require any training, nor experience. The Gun is the danger. Not the holder.

Will you acknowledge THIS FACT? No!

#3 - You are correct that 'Shot Placement' requires training and experience.

---

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton

Who - NO ONE - was speaking of accuracy.

Except all those people that claimed shooting is totally as easy as it is in video games. And that video games somehow train you in firing an actual gun.

You have been completely incorrect regarding HOW FAST a low powered handgun can be fired by ANYONE. Even those with NO EXPERIENCE.

You brought up a revolver. Which typically fires slower if Im not mistaken. You can fire those things pretty fast, but again, that requires training and experience. Things a 12 year old child probably lacks.

Why not admit you were incorrect?

Whatever, youre right, you shoot a revolver pretty quickly.

Answer: Ideology and Ego trump Facts and Truth.

What ideology?

Мишель...

After you fire a 9MM handgun: Then return to this Thread, and Post your experience. You may be shocked how easy it is to fire rapidly.

Hardly. I know how fast a semi auto can fire.

The recoil is very limited and the Report (sound) is not like the Hollywood Movies. There is no BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!, BANG! BANG! BANG!, nor related sound effects. It is just a pop, pop, pop.

Again, I know what they sound like (sound is one of the few things games do get right about guns). And sure, recoil isn't like firing one of those handcannons. But those arent the only things that affect accuracy. I mean, have you ever tried just holding a gun steady? I've tried, and I can't do it. I mean its not like Im waving it all over the place, but Im pretty sure I'd have a lot of trouble keeping it straight. I would need training before I would be accurate with a 9mm. And mind you, I did this with an airsoft gun, a cheap one. Those things are plastic and weigh nothing. I can imagine that if I were to try this with a real 9mm gun, fully loaded, my accuracy would be even worse. And if I were to be in a stressful situation (like someone pointing a gun at me and yelling), yeah no way I could hit anything beyond point blank range.

Hell, even take a look at Darren Wilson. The guy shot 12 shots and only hit 6 times. And he was shooting at pretty much point blank range and he is supposed to have at least some basic fire arm training. So, guns in the hands of untrained, 12 year olds? Yeah, if they are going to hit anything, its more likely by accident.

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES are not what you believe.

You refuse to LEARN anything from those with Training and Experience.

Oh no, you forget that I have my own experiences as well.

Typical - I've lost the argument and bring up another topic.

Who - NO ONE - was speaking of accuracy.

You have been completely incorrect regarding HOW FAST a low powered handgun can be fired by ANYONE. Even those with NO EXPERIENCE.

Why not admit you were incorrect?

Answer: Ideology and Ego trump Facts and Truth.

Perhaps, sometime in the future, when older and have had more life experience, you will not have your Youthful Ego (I know everything). We have ALL been there.

Ideology? There probably is no hope for you.

---

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton

Same goes for xbox war games. You dont get a do over in real combat. You live or are dead.

Exactly my point. Video games do not in any way prepare you for real life combat nor do they help you become better at shooting real guns.

Мишель...

After you fire a 9MM handgun: Then return to this Thread, and Post your experience. You may be shocked how easy it is to fire rapidly.

Hardly. I know how fast a semi auto can fire.

The recoil is very limited and the Report (sound) is not like the Hollywood Movies. There is no BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!, BANG! BANG! BANG!, nor related sound effects. It is just a pop, pop, pop.

Again, I know what they sound like (sound is one of the few things games do get right about guns). And sure, recoil isn't like firing one of those handcannons. But those arent the only things that affect accuracy. I mean, have you ever tried just holding a gun steady? I've tried, and I can't do it. I mean its not like Im waving it all over the place, but Im pretty sure I'd have a lot of trouble keeping it straight. I would need training before I would be accurate with a 9mm. And mind you, I did this with an airsoft gun, a cheap one. Those things are plastic and weigh nothing. I can imagine that if I were to try this with a real 9mm gun, fully loaded, my accuracy would be even worse. And if I were to be in a stressful situation (like someone pointing a gun at me and yelling), yeah no way I could hit anything beyond point blank range.

Hell, even take a look at Darren Wilson. The guy shot 12 shots and only hit 6 times. And he was shooting at pretty much point blank range and he is supposed to have at least some basic fire arm training. So, guns in the hands of untrained, 12 year olds? Yeah, if they are going to hit anything, its more likely by accident.

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES are not what you believe.

You refuse to LEARN anything from those with Training and Experience.

Oh no, you forget that I have my own experiences as well.

Get real!
Actually its more easy to use a real gun then a computer controller to hit a target lets say 30 feets away.
Its almost impossible to miss! Even for young kids who are probably not so nervous in the situation.

In games, I can reliable make headshots over distances of over several hundred meters. I can use high powered sniper rifles, while standing on my feet, use a scope, have that scope not move at all and blow someones head off at over several hundred meters. The same is true for assault rifles allthough their effective distance is more limited. You think thats realistic? You think real guns are even easier to use like that?

Oh but that are rifles, thats different. Pistols are much easier to use. Yeah sure, they are easier to use. But in games you see people dual wielding pistols and still retaining perfect accuracy. Or just wielding a pistol in one hand. There are some games that portray pistols a bit more realistic in the sense that they are held in both hands. But those games give pistols insane accuracy allowing me to headshot people with a pistol at a ridiculous range again.

The simple fact is that violence in games is just completely unrealistic in 99% of the cases. Really, the few games that start to approach real life realism when it comes to violence are games like ArmA or Operation Flashpoint. I played those games and no, its not exactly easy to kill people in those games. And even in those games, its far more easy than in real life.

Remember that the Cleveland officer shooting 12-year-old Tamir Rice within seconds was a rookie.

That is no excuse. A police officer is supposed to be properly trained in the use of force and in understanding when force is appropriate.

This events happens also in my country.
And I do think in the Netherlands as well.

Police shooting 12 year olds? Hmm I couldn't find any instances of that. The youngest I could find was someone of 14 who got shot in the legs by the police. The youngest one I could find that got killed by the police was 17. I found some other instances of the police shooting at minors but apparently in almost all of those cases they survived. Dutch police violence instructions are based on keeping people alive, not killing them.

There is always some idiot who thinks every gun is a Desert Eagle.

And there are apparantly plenty of idiots that think shooting a gun is like holding a controller.

Мишель...

After you fire a 9MM handgun: Then return to this Thread, and Post your experience. You may be shocked how easy it is to fire rapidly.

The recoil is very limited and the Report (sound) is not like the Hollywood Movies. There is no BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!, BANG! BANG! BANG!, nor related sound effects. It is just a pop, pop, pop.

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES are not what you believe.

You refuse to LEARN anything from those with Training and Experience.

I have a Ruger Redhawk in .44 magnun That I use for hunting that has some recoil. Makes a 9mm or a .45 auto seem like a .22 rimfire.
Back when I shot the .44 every weekend at 100 yards at a 8" plate, Hitting 5 out of six with my then young eyes. I was allway bleeding from a cut on my trigger finger. Finally smartend up and used a bandaid on that finger.
Dont beieve the TV or Hollywood crap on how a weapon recoils. They are there to entertain you not give you reality. Same goes for xbox war games. You dont get a do over in real combat. You live or are dead.

---

[/quote]

Old James

There is always some idiot who thinks every gun is a Desert Eagle.

And there are apparantly plenty of idiots that think shooting a gun is like holding a controller.

Мишель...

After you fire a 9MM handgun: Then return to this Thread, and Post your experience. You may be shocked how easy it is to fire rapidly.

The recoil is very limited and the Report (sound) is not like the Hollywood Movies. There is no BLAM! BLAM! BLAM!, BANG! BANG! BANG!, nor related sound effects. It is just a pop, pop, pop.

REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES are not what you believe.

You refuse to LEARN anything from those with Training and Experience.

---

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton

There is always some idiot who thinks every gun is a Desert Eagle.

And there are apparantly plenty of idiots that think shooting a gun is like holding a controller.

Get real!
Actually its more easy to use a real gun then a computer controller to hit a target lets say 30 feets away.
Its almost impossible to miss! Even for young kids who are probably not so nervous in the situation.
Remember that the Cleveland officer shooting 12-year-old Tamir Rice within seconds was a rookie.
This events happens also in my country.
And I do think in the Netherlands as well.

There is always some idiot who thinks every gun is a Desert Eagle.

And there are apparantly plenty of idiots that think shooting a gun is like holding a controller.

[And then there is the shooting itself. Shooting a gun in a game does not prepare you for the real thing. The noise and the recoil, etc.

There is always some idiot who thinks every gun is a Desert Eagle.

---

And then there is the shooting itself. Shooting a gun in a game does not prepare you for the real thing. The noise and the recoil, etc.

If people honestly think that you can be an experienced shooter after holding a gun for a few seconds and firing a few shots and even less if they played a lot of videogames then really those people don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Noise and recoil? I dont remember that is so much of that.
The 12 year old kid knew how to use an airsoft gun which is almost like a real gun. However automatic guns such as Uzi should not be used by 8 year old kids!
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/27/year-old-girl-death-at-shooting-range-stirs-debate-over-children-and-automatic/

Cop says hands up, you reach for a gun, duh.

Oh come on. They shot him within 2 seconds. That is not nearly enough time to see if someone is reaching for a gun or trying to put his hands up. And even so, this kid was 12, I suspect he didn't take it as serious because you know, HE WAS 12!

A man whith a knife can attack you from 21 feet away in 1 and 1/2 seconds.

James...

We have to understand there are people in this thread who are incapable of learning from experts, and those who have 'been there'.

Truly Intellectual persons admit they are not experts in many things, and have much to learn.

This is not them.

Debating them is an exercise in futility.

---

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton

It doesnt take long to be "Experienced". Only a few seconds even for kids.

Especially when they play 10 hours of video games a day.

Yeah no, absolutely not. Playing games does not in any way prepare you for shooting an actual gun. You are comparing holding a lightweight, plastic controller with buttons in your hand and using a thumb stick to get the cross hairs over the target to holding an actual gun which is much heavier and trying to aim that properly.

And then there is the shooting itself. Shooting a gun in a game does not prepare you for the real thing. The noise and the recoil, etc.

If people honestly think that you can be an experienced shooter after holding a gun for a few seconds and firing a few shots and even less if they played a lot of videogames then really those people don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Pickup a REAL Gun and try it.

Ignorance is NOT bliss.

---

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton

America is, and has always been, a very violent Country. Where The People. not just The Controllers, are armed.

And what do you get? Police escalating to deadly force in only a few seconds. Because they are afraid that the guy they are trying to arrest has a gun and is going to shoot them. Thats what arming the people does. It doesn't make you safer, it doesn't make the police safer, all it does is make the police more afraid of their own lives and that makes them more aggressive. Good job, you got a police system that has to wage war on the people they are supposed to protect.

Could you please breakdown, in percentage's, how many lives were saved by Police Shooting of those attempting to kill, or have already killed Innocents.

Look, I'm not saying that the police should never be allowed to use violence. I get that if someone is about to shoot someone else and the police is there that they are forced to shoot as well. And if the police is under fire from some idiot that thinks shooting the police is a great idea, well then obviously the police should be capable to fire back.

What I'm saying is that American police resorts to violence far to quickly. And as a result, a lot of innocent law abiding people who were no threat to anyone get shot and die. Its the polices job to protect the community that they serve, but if they shoot to kill the moment they feel afraid then they are not protecting their community one bit.

Blaming The Police, for American violent culture, is an exercise in stupidly.

I never said that nor did I try to argue that.

It doesnt take long to be "Experienced". Only a few seconds even for kids.

Especially when they play 10 hours of video games a day.

Yeah no, absolutely not. Playing games does not in any way prepare you for shooting an actual gun. You are comparing holding a lightweight, plastic controller with buttons in your hand and using a thumb stick to get the cross hairs over the target to holding an actual gun which is much heavier and trying to aim that properly.

And then there is the shooting itself. Shooting a gun in a game does not prepare you for the real thing. The noise and the recoil, etc.

If people honestly think that you can be an experienced shooter after holding a gun for a few seconds and firing a few shots and even less if they played a lot of videogames then really those people don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Cop says hands up, you reach for a gun, duh.

Oh come on. They shot him within 2 seconds. That is not nearly enough time to see if someone is reaching for a gun or trying to put his hands up. And even so, this kid was 12, I suspect he didn't take it as serious because you know, HE WAS 12!

A man whith a knife can attack you from 21 feet away in 1 and 1/2 seconds.

---

[/quote]

Old James

But whatever, this is why America has 1600 people dying in police violence a year while the rest of the civilized world has only a few dozen at the most.

Police Violence? Another agenda driven, unthinking statement.

What else is new from the Unthinking, don't confuse me with the facts, Left.

America is, and has always been, a very violent Country. Where The People. not just The Controllers, are armed.

Could you please breakdown, in percentage's, how many lives were saved by Police Shooting of those attempting to kill, or have already killed Innocents.

Blaming The Police, for American violent culture, is an exercise in stupidly.

---

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton