I was watching some nature programming on BBC America today and it was pointed out that, with mammals especially, a life of conflict helps creatures in the wild to develop and evolve either as preditors or prey. I have also read that humans have made our greatest advancements in the cause of war or in attempts to prevent it.

So, if we get to the point where we are all living on this planet in relative peace, will we begin to stagnate and lose our ability to advance?

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Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

... So, if we get to the point where we are all living on this planet in relative peace, will we begin to stagnate and lose our ability to advance?

That all depends on the social environment...

In the business world, the 'peace' brought by monopoly status usually implies severe stagnation. IT and tech are particularly prone to that.

However in contrast, in the academic world, peaceful open cooperation leads to the greatest and fastest advances.

And with wars, the advances very much depend on which side you are on and also for what you might call advancement...


A recent large example is the cold war between America and Russia where both funded incredible and rapid advancement of missiles and moonshots, all at the expense of poverty at home.


All in our only one world,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
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In my opinion, had there been no space race and no manned trip to the moon there would still be the same number or more people in poverty today. Things might even be worse had there been no need to develop satellites, fast computers, wireless communications and countless more technologies that were spin offs from the space program. Aircraft would not have developed as rapidly without the need for warplanes and there are hundreds more examples of technologies that would most likely never been thought of if there was no need to do so.

Now if you want to live under the trees and only communicate with those who are within earshot then maybe advancement and progress would be viewed as evil things.

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Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

After Fall Of Technologically Advanced Rome, 1000 years of War and No Technological Advancement.

Late 1400s in Ming Dynasty China, Tech stopped, Wars Continued, and No Tech Until recently in late 20th Century, up to Now.

War Increases Tech Mightily, but during The Times mentioned above, No.

Just Lots of Death and Destruction, with Low Tech, Very Bloody Ways.

And Yes, I have read Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel, Collapse, Third Chimpanzee. He stated Very Clearly Advancements made because of War.

However, War is sometimes Only Blood, Death, Disease and Poverty.

Sure, Cooperation between The World's Scientists and Internet Connectivity Between Minds is A HUGE Driving Force for Tech Advance, and 'it' 'is' Better If Bombs are Not Destroying The Connections.

Peace, well, Look At The Entitlement Generation and Tell Me where The Tech Advances Are.

' '

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May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

After Fall Of Technologically Advanced Rome, 1000 years of War and No Technological Advancement.

Late 1400s in Ming Dynasty China, Tech stopped, Wars Continued, and No Tech Until recently in late 20th Century, up to Now.

War Increases Tech Mightily, but during The Times mentioned above, No.

Just Lots of Death and Destruction, with Low Tech, Very Bloody Ways.

And Yes, I have read Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel, Collapse, Third Chimpanzee. He stated Very Clearly Advancements made because of War.

However, War is sometimes Only Blood, Death, Disease and Poverty.

Sure, Cooperation between The World's Scientists and Internet Connectivity Between Minds is A HUGE Driving Force for Tech Advance, and 'it' 'is' Better If Bombs are Not Destroying The Connections.

Peace, well, Look At The Entitlement Generation and Tell Me where The Tech Advances Are.

' '

Wow, D.W.... A non-gibberish post. :)

You raise the issue of Internet Connectivity.

You do remember that the 'Internet' owes its existence to war. The US Military funded its invention through DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency).

Not also to forget that computers themselves were, if not invented, then VASTLY improved in order to do ballistics computations for the military.

Yes. 100% yes.

Even if not human on human conflict, we need conflict to build a better mousetrap. Conflict between the vermin that eat our food and our hunger pangs. We are an animal of conflict. Without it something would come along and eat us.

As to the "poverty at home" the largest increase in the middle class happened in the cold war period, now in the post cold war period wealth disparity grows. But that is just an echo of WWII pulling America out of the Great Depression.

Unfortunately, it appears as if war is necessary for humanity to survive and prosper. (Boy are the BHL's going to crucify me for that.)

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After Fall Of Technologically Advanced Rome, 1000 years of War and No Technological Advancement.

Late 1400s in Ming Dynasty China, Tech stopped, Wars Continued, and No Tech Until recently in late 20th Century, up to Now.

War Increases Tech Mightily, but during The Times mentioned above, No.

Just Lots of Death and Destruction, with Low Tech, Very Bloody Ways.

And Yes, I have read Jared Diamond, Guns, Germs, and Steel, Collapse, Third Chimpanzee. He stated Very Clearly Advancements made because of War.

However, War is sometimes Only Blood, Death, Disease and Poverty.

Sure, Cooperation between The World's Scientists and Internet Connectivity Between Minds is A HUGE Driving Force for Tech Advance, and 'it' 'is' Better If Bombs are Not Destroying The Connections.

Peace, well, Look At The Entitlement Generation and Tell Me where The Tech Advances Are.

' '

Wow, D.W.... A non-gibberish post. :)

You raise the issue of Internet Connectivity.

You do remember that the 'Internet' owes its existence to war. The US Military funded its invention through DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency).

Not also to forget that computers themselves were, if not invented, then VASTLY improved in order to do ballistics computations for the military.

Money in research when at war or peace results in advancement. Apple has nothing to do with the military but has pushed the rest of the industry through competition. As for computers, the concept is over 2000 years old but you may want to read about Charles Babbage . His machine has been built with modern machining and it works as advertised.
Also the first machines would have been next to useless for business applications, It was only development after the war was over that produced a usable business machine.

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Yes. 100% yes.

Even if not human on human conflict, we need conflict to build a better mousetrap. Conflict between the vermin that eat our food and our hunger pangs. We are an animal of conflict. Without it something would come along and eat us.

As to the "poverty at home" the largest increase in the middle class happened in the cold war period, now in the post cold war period wealth disparity grows. But that is just an echo of WWII pulling America out of the Great Depression.

Unfortunately, it appears as if war is necessary for humanity to survive and prosper. (Boy are the BHL's going to crucify me for that.)

+1

That is why I picked the word conflict in the title. Conflict does not necessarily imply war.

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Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

I agree.
Conflicts advances ALL species according to Darwin.
Not always nice but that's life.

Its not all man made conflicts either. Our planet throws some curve balls to test how tough life is. It seems that life is pretty tough.

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Old James

Well conflict does help technological advancement to some degree, but at the same time that advancement is generally centered around a select few fields of technology and science.

It leads to the belief that technological advancement follows a relatively straightforward path (Tech tree) and that certain advancements are only the natural evolution from the advancements that came before them. Of course, this is simply the image we get because we can only look back while lacking the ability to look forward. In reality, if you were to have a neat oversight of all possible technological advancements possible, it would look a lot more like a web.

In any case, because we let conflict be the main driver behind our technological advancement we branch out our advancements only in a certain direction while ignoring other directions. A shame really because I think that the advancements made through conflict are generally the easiest and least useful. I mean, in a few thousand years we have learned how to utterly destroy the world, but not how to make this a paradise for everyone.


EDIT: as a side note, the idea that there are multiple paths one can take towards advancing technologically and socially is actually a good argument not to try and make contacts with alien intelligence yet. If they teach us how to advance, they will teach us their method and we would be set along the path they took. Its better if we find our own way rather than be lazy and use theirs.

As I have opined ling ago on these threads the Answer to this question may well be an emphatic YES.

Metallurgy evolved from armor. Gunpowder to defeat armor . Computers to aim artillery and Naval guns. Rockets grew out of warfare. Miniaturization of computer components. also came from the Space Program however. The internet grew out of Bitnet and the 50 kilobit ARPA analog network to several research universities that were sponsored by the Dept of Defense. We had it running through the University of Illinois in the early 70's. We were supposed to house the Illiac IV (1/4 of a planned 256 processor machine) by Burroughs that was originally planned to be the tracking computer for the Nike X anti-missle system. It was moved to NASA Aimes instead when the war protestors appeared and some Dynamite was found outside of the building that was to house it. The group that I was in at the Army Electronics command developed it along with the vendor. I tried unsuccessfully to get that building to house my huge new administrative computer that was to power all three campuses of the university of Illinois and the ten community colleges in the State as well.

I think it is change that forces advancements, and wars are one way of doing it. Continental drift and climate changes, along with asteroid impacts and volcanic activity are other ways. The main trick is to be able to survive the change in order to make the next advancement. That could be getting harder.

PS - The Black Death of 1348 was responsible for a lot of changes and may have helped end the Middle Ages and promote more rational thinking; Ebola probably won't do as much, be we will see something.

The Black Death of 1348 was responsible for a lot of changes

This plague wiped out a high percentage of the population of Europe at the time. It was found that paper could be made from rags about that time. All of the discarded clothes of the dead were available for paper making. This led directly to the viability of the printing press.

The Black Death of 1348 was responsible for a lot of changes

This plague wiped out a high percentage of the population of Europe at the time. It was found that paper could be made from rags about that time. All of the discarded clothes of the dead were available for paper making. This led directly to the viability of the printing press.

Yes. About one third of the population of Europe died.
But that was not a conflict. Maybe it changed human way of thinking but I find that's far fetched.
Since then in Europe there have been wars about every 25 years...
Yes. There are still conflicts and wars in Europe.
When do we ever learn?

The Black Death of 1348 was responsible for a lot of changes

This plague wiped out a high percentage of the population of Europe at the time. It was found that paper could be made from rags about that time. All of the discarded clothes of the dead were available for paper making. This led directly to the viability of the printing press.

Yes. About one third of the population of Europe died.
But that was not a conflict. Maybe it changed human way of thinking but I find that's far fetched.
Since then in Europe there have been wars about every 25 years...
Yes. There are still conflicts and wars in Europe.
When do we ever learn?

When our DNA advances?

Maybe we can help nature by gene modification:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2SIIeqy34

The Black Death of 1348 was responsible for a lot of changes

This plague wiped out a high percentage of the population of Europe at the time. It was found that paper could be made from rags about that time. All of the discarded clothes of the dead were available for paper making. This led directly to the viability of the printing press.

Yes. About one third of the population of Europe died.
But that was not a conflict. Maybe it changed human way of thinking but I find that's far fetched.
Since then in Europe there have been wars about every 25 years...
Yes. There are still conflicts and wars in Europe.
When do we ever learn?

When our DNA advances?

Maybe we can help nature by gene modification:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y2SIIeqy34

Bad idea Janne, we'd grow out to be some mutated freaks:) If we even can't find a cure for ebola, we shouldn't start messing with Nature...

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rOZZ
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Pictures

Bad idea Janne, we'd grow out to be some mutated freaks:) If we even can't find a cure for ebola, we shouldn't start messing with Nature...

Julie...

Assuming we Humans Evolved on this Planet:

We are Nature and Natural (Nature Made Us). Therefore... Maybe Nature isn't as nice as we would like to believe, and the destruction we do is Natural and Nature's Plan.

Do I believe the above? No. But it makes one think.

That's where it generally starts to go wrong with humans...

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rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Bad idea Janne, we'd grow out to be some mutated freaks:) If we even can't find a cure for ebola, we shouldn't start messing with Nature...

Julie...

Assuming we Humans Evolved on this Planet:
We are Nature and Natural (Nature Made Us). Therefore... Maybe Nature isn't as nice as we would like to believe, and the destruction we do is Natural and Nature's Plan.
Do I believe the above? No. But it makes one think.

That's where it generally starts to go wrong with humans...

But humans is the only spieces that are thinking or at least could plan the future.
Maybe we are at the end of line of human advancement...

Bad idea Janne, we'd grow out to be some mutated freaks:) If we even can't find a cure for ebola, we shouldn't start messing with Nature...

Julie...

Assuming we Humans Evolved on this Planet:
We are Nature and Natural (Nature Made Us). Therefore... Maybe Nature isn't as nice as we would like to believe, and the destruction we do is Natural and Nature's Plan.
Do I believe the above? No. But it makes one think.

That's where it generally starts to go wrong with humans...

But humans is the only spieces that are thinking or at least could plan the future.
Maybe we are at the end of line of human advancement...

We're not the only species in the Universe who can do that Janne, at least it's not proven yet. I also sometimes wonder what the 'advancement' of humans will bring for the future, I fear for my grand grand ...children as I won't experience the far future anymore in my knowing.

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rOZZ
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