Middle East Timebomb

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Message 1613856 - Posted: 14 Dec 2014, 14:02:21 UTC - in response to Message 1613853.  

A cop out? History proves otherwise. Long after we're both dead, it will still be going on, so your answer to that will be?
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Message 1613861 - Posted: 14 Dec 2014, 14:16:32 UTC - in response to Message 1613856.  

A cop out? History proves otherwise. Long after we're both dead, it will still be going on, so your answer to that will be?

History proves what exactly? That torture doesn't work? Sure, it will. That treating people badly is overall a dumb idea? Yep, sure.
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Message 1613862 - Posted: 14 Dec 2014, 14:20:48 UTC - in response to Message 1613861.  

A cop out? History proves otherwise. Long after we're both dead, it will still be going on, so your answer to that will be?

History proves what exactly? That torture doesn't work? Sure, it will. That treating people badly is overall a dumb idea? Yep, sure.

Read that report again. How do you equate intimidation with torture?
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Message 1614133 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 10:17:16 UTC

The ticking timebomb is beginning to spread it's wings...

Australia's turn again

...who's next?
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Message 1614159 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 11:29:17 UTC - in response to Message 1613863.  
Last modified: 15 Dec 2014, 11:32:23 UTC

18 is 'An Idiot' not responsible for...

Apply to 18, 19, 20+ year old solder's responsible for War Crimes or Civilian Criminal Acts, IE: Rape?

Why shouldn't an 18 year old be held responsible for RAPE?

Why?

Well, rape is a black and white issue. Rape is always bad, no matter the circumstance, there exists no excuse for it. So, you can be held responsible as soon as you understand that rape is a bad thing. Generally, at the age of 18 you are capable of understanding that.

But ISIS? Its closer to a dangerous and violent cult than anything else. You know how cults operate, they suck people in gradually until at some point they send a text to their mom that they are about to cross the border in to Syria. I doubt a lot of people wake up one day and think to themselves 'I think I'll join ISIS so I can behead people and stuff'. Instead people wake up one day and realize that they are in Syria doing some pretty messed up stuff. Those are also a lot of the people that try to return to the country they came from. Are they people that need to be thrown in jail, or are they people that need help and deprogramming?
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Message 1614160 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 11:31:44 UTC - in response to Message 1613862.  

Read that report again. How do you equate intimidation with torture?

Intimidation is the less brutal variation of torture. And there have been plenty of cases where people were intimidated in giving up information that proved to be nonsense. Court cases have failed because the police intimidated suspects into admitting crimes they never committed.
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Message 1614165 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 11:49:32 UTC - in response to Message 1614160.  

Read that report again. How do you equate intimidation with torture?

Intimidation is the less brutal variation of torture. And there have been plenty of cases where people were intimidated in giving up information that proved to be nonsense. Court cases have failed because the police intimidated suspects into admitting crimes they never committed.

Really? the police now serve as combat troops?
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Message 1614166 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 12:00:58 UTC - in response to Message 1614165.  

Really? the police now serve as combat troops?

Why would it be different for terrorists and combat troops?
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Message 1614168 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 12:39:57 UTC - in response to Message 1614166.  

Really? the police now serve as combat troops?

Why would it be different for terrorists and combat troops?

Enlist, request service in a combat zone & if you survive, come back & tell us.
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Message 1614181 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 14:08:00 UTC - in response to Message 1614168.  

Really? the police now serve as combat troops?

Why would it be different for terrorists and combat troops?

Enlist, request service in a combat zone & if you survive, come back & tell us.

More cop outs, figures.
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Message 1614183 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 14:18:08 UTC - in response to Message 1614179.  
Last modified: 15 Dec 2014, 14:18:42 UTC

ISIS Commits Rape, and is proud of it.

ISIS cuts off the heads of children, and is proud of it.

Cults in general do some really messed up things, but we also understand that a lot of members part of the cult are no longer fully responsible over the actions they commit while being in a cult. Cults quite literally brainwash people and reprogram to do some really awful things. I believe this needs to be taken into account when we are talking about ISIS

Therefore...

Anyone who joins ISIS is participating, or assisting in the Rape of Women, and is responsible.

Anyone who joins ISIS is participating, or assisting in the Decapitation of Children, and is responsible.

No, thats not how that works. Joining a reprehensible organization does not mean you can be held responsible for all the things that organization does. It would be silly to accuse someone who does the accounting of ISIS for beheading and raping if he never did those things. Sorry, but collective responsibility is still not a thing.

Like the NAZI SS Members: We do hold Everyone joining these Vile, Evil and Murderous Movements/Cults responsible.

Correct?

Except we never ever did that. Nazi SS members? Yeah no, only a tiny percentage of SS members was ever prosecuted for war crimes, and even then only for the things those individuals did themselves, not for the overall crimes of the SS as a whole. So, not correct.


ISIS IS a Black and White issue.

I know you would like to believe that, but its really not a black and white issue. This problem cannot be solved by simply branding all of them evil and throwing them in jail or dropping a bomb on their heads. The last time you guys went in there thinking this was a black and white issue you lost the war and YOU CREATED ISIS. Do not make the same mistake again or in 10 years we get another, even more brutal terrorist organization in the region.
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Message 1614197 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 14:43:44 UTC - in response to Message 1614165.  

Read that report again. How do you equate intimidation with torture?

Intimidation is the less brutal variation of torture. And there have been plenty of cases where people were intimidated in giving up information that proved to be nonsense. Court cases have failed because the police intimidated suspects into admitting crimes they never committed.

Really? the police now serve as combat troops?

Since day 1. Ask the Sheriff of Nottingham.
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Message 1614198 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 14:47:05 UTC - in response to Message 1614189.  
Last modified: 15 Dec 2014, 14:49:18 UTC

Your wasting your breath! Too many like Michel forget that as they lay sleeping snug as a bug in a rug, rough men stand guard. We all know where his "diplomatic skills" lie.

@Gary, bad comparison - Robin Hood ended up a hero :-)
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Message 1614200 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 14:51:54 UTC - in response to Message 1614198.  

Your wasting your breath! Too many like Michel forget that as they lay sleeping snug as a bug in a rug, rough men stand guard. We all know where his "diplomatic skills" lie.

@Gary, bad comparison - Robin Hood ended up a hero :-)

No, I'd say about perfect comparison, Darryl Gates, Rodney King.
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Message 1614201 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 14:53:57 UTC - in response to Message 1614200.  

Your wasting your breath! Too many like Michel forget that as they lay sleeping snug as a bug in a rug, rough men stand guard. We all know where his "diplomatic skills" lie.

@Gary, bad comparison - Robin Hood ended up a hero :-)

No, I'd say about perfect comparison, Darryl Gates, Rodney King.

Bad comparison. Those were civilian issues, we're talking of warzones. There's a thread for police actions, good or bad.
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Message 1614204 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 15:03:17 UTC - in response to Message 1614201.  

Your wasting your breath! Too many like Michel forget that as they lay sleeping snug as a bug in a rug, rough men stand guard. We all know where his "diplomatic skills" lie.

@Gary, bad comparison - Robin Hood ended up a hero :-)

No, I'd say about perfect comparison, Darryl Gates, Rodney King.

Bad comparison. Those were civilian issues, we're talking of warzones. There's a thread for police actions, good or bad.

You haven't been to Los Angeles lately have you. They declared a war here some years ago.
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Message 1614206 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 15:07:08 UTC - in response to Message 1614204.  

Your wasting your breath! Too many like Michel forget that as they lay sleeping snug as a bug in a rug, rough men stand guard. We all know where his "diplomatic skills" lie.

@Gary, bad comparison - Robin Hood ended up a hero :-)

No, I'd say about perfect comparison, Darryl Gates, Rodney King.

Bad comparison. Those were civilian issues, we're talking of warzones. There's a thread for police actions, good or bad.

You haven't been to Los Angeles lately have you. They declared a war here some years ago.

So there's been an official declaration of war & your military is involved?
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Message 1614207 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 15:17:02 UTC - in response to Message 1614189.  

Мишель...

Do believe you have your 'head in the sand'.

This is NOT a Police Matter.

It is a War, and you act upon that.

Its not war in the sense that we understand. The war we wage is the kind of war we invented. Between two professional militaries controlled by state actors, following the traditional Clausewitzian paradigm of escalating force until one actor surrenders. That paradigm no longer applies in this case and the standard techniques and strategies that underpin it no longer work.

So no, its not war, its a New War.


Does it matter that many European Country's, and Left Wing 'Will not Fight for King or Country' philosophy, assisted in the rise of German Military Power under the NAZI's?

No, it does not matter. It did not assist in the rise of Nazism either. At its worst, it allowed it to happen. But that has nothing to do with left wing philosophies, but with the respect for the sovereign integrity of other nation states you are not currently at war at. That is a philosophy that existed before the left wing and the right wing were even a thing in politics.

Whomever is responsible for The Jihadists is relevant for the History Books, and future actions, AFTER their defeat.

Those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. And in your case, you refuse to even look for any mistakes in the first place. I can safely predict that with people like you calling the shots, the United States will fail to defeat them, just as they failed to defeat Al Qaeda, and as they failed to defeat the Vietcong.

You destroy their ability to Destroy, or Significantly harm you. Just as the NAZI's and other's.

So, are you going to shut down international air travel? Are you going to destroy explosive compounds? Get rid of ever RPG and AK-47 in circulation around the world? Get rid of pick up trucks and swords? Take down the internet? Yeah didnt think so, and as a result you will never be able to significantly hinder their ability to hurt you.
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Message 1614209 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 15:28:52 UTC - in response to Message 1614207.  

So no, its not war, its a New War.

So your recommendations on how to fight it please...

...or are you going to confront them face to face & try to de-radicalise them?
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Message 1614212 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 15:38:10 UTC - in response to Message 1614209.  

So your recommendations on how to fight it please...

...or are you going to confront them face to face & try to de-radicalise them?

Its a New War, we have never successfully 'won' a New War before.

What is important to know though, is that direct combat operations against the opponent in a New War generally keeps some cycle intact that feeds the conflict. So paradoxically, the best way to fight a New War is to not fight it. So rather than fight fire with fire, its about depriving the fire of oxygen and snuff it out this way.

So, in order to do that, we need to know what the oxygen is, and how can we get rid of it. In this case, Assad is one source of Oxygen and the mistreatment and loss of privilege of Sunni's in Iraq is a second source. I'm sure there are more, but those would need to be mapped first.
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