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Message 1614213 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 15:39:40 UTC - in response to Message 1614212.  

So your recommendations on how to fight it please...

...or are you going to confront them face to face & try to de-radicalise them?

Its a New War, we have never successfully 'won' a New War before.

What is important to know though, is that direct combat operations against the opponent in a New War generally keeps some cycle intact that feeds the conflict. So paradoxically, the best way to fight a New War is to not fight it. So rather than fight fire with fire, its about depriving the fire of oxygen and snuff it out this way.

So, in order to do that, we need to know what the oxygen is, and how can we get rid of it. In this case, Assad is one source of Oxygen and the mistreatment and loss of privilege of Sunni's in Iraq is a second source. I'm sure there are more, but those would need to be mapped first.

What about the desire to have an Islamic world rather than a region & all that entails?
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Message 1614214 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 15:45:15 UTC - in response to Message 1614213.  

What about the desire to have an Islamic world rather than a region & all that entails?

No, thats only interesting for those that have radicalized. Its not what attracts people initially to a group like ISIS. A lot of people have joined because they hate Assad and ISIS is one of the few effective forces fighting Assad, not because they really care all that much about ISIS's ideology
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Message 1614233 - Posted: 15 Dec 2014, 17:02:33 UTC - in response to Message 1614206.  

Your wasting your breath! Too many like Michel forget that as they lay sleeping snug as a bug in a rug, rough men stand guard. We all know where his "diplomatic skills" lie.

@Gary, bad comparison - Robin Hood ended up a hero :-)

No, I'd say about perfect comparison, Darryl Gates, Rodney King.

Bad comparison. Those were civilian issues, we're talking of warzones. There's a thread for police actions, good or bad.

You haven't been to Los Angeles lately have you. They declared a war here some years ago.

So there's been an official declaration of war & your military is involved?

Yes. Some democRATS and Repugants declared a "war on drugs" and the US military is involved. http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg5/cg531/drug_interdiction.asp Note the ".mil" TLD. The police forces of the USA were also brought to bear in this declared war. The other side is doing this. Warning, graphic. Then we have other domestic issues, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
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Message 1615267 - Posted: 17 Dec 2014, 13:20:05 UTC
Last modified: 17 Dec 2014, 13:46:34 UTC

IS has attracted very young recruits from Kazakhstan and Chechnya!

http://www.rferl.org/content/chechnya-wife-isis-fighter-syria/26745188.html
http://www.rferl.org/content/kazakhstan-islamic-state-recruitment-children-syria/26709628.html

ISIS fight song "O Soldiers of Truth Go Forth"
https://archive.org/details/ALHAYAT_2
O soldiers of truth, let’s go.
Repeat the tune of endurance.
A light has illuminated Shaam,
so rally all the soldiers.
The Islamic State has been established,
so wipe out all the borders.
Wherever our war goes,
jewish rabbis are humiliated.
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Message 1622800 - Posted: 3 Jan 2015, 15:29:38 UTC
Last modified: 3 Jan 2015, 15:42:18 UTC

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Message 1622806 - Posted: 3 Jan 2015, 16:02:49 UTC - in response to Message 1622801.  
Last modified: 3 Jan 2015, 16:09:34 UTC

No wonder that muslim countries dont like the West:(
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/twitter-and-facebookallowing-islamophobia-to-flourish-as-antimuslim-comments-proliferate-9954940.html

The Jihadists Hate Us because we are NOT THEM.
Please give them the Same Respect, as Non-Muslim Europeans/Americans/Canadians.
They are TOTALLY Responsible for THIER EVIL. As We are responsible for OURS.
We don't excuse NAZI's, and ask 'What did we do to make them'.
Do the same with them. It diminishes them, and makes them inferior to us, if we don't.

To me it seems that jihadists can not read.
In the Koran there are no texts that say you should kill infidels.
On the contrary, every man should take care of each other.
And they used to respect other religions and cultures far more than the Christian Culture did until the 20th centuary.
And that Muslims are almost as secular as we Westerners.
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Message 1622823 - Posted: 3 Jan 2015, 16:55:02 UTC - in response to Message 1622806.  

To me it seems that jihadists can not read.
In the Koran there are no texts that say you should kill infidels.

Correct, they are written in the hadiths.
Hadith (/ˈhædɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎) in Muslim religious use is often translated as "prophetic traditions", meaning the corpus of the reports of the teachings, deeds and sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The hadith literature was compiled from oral reports that were in circulation in society around the time of their compilation long after the death of Muhammad. Bukhari's collection is considered the most reliable by many traditional religious scholars who are Sunnis. The Shi'as believe in an entirely separate body of Hadith.
...
A growing number of Muslims have begun to reject the authority of the Hadith in favor of the primary authority of the Quran (See Criticism of Hadith). They cite numerous verses of the Quran (e.g. 6:114, 31:6, 45:6 and 77:50) to support their argument. Some call themselves "Quranists", while others avoid such titles, labeling themselves as "Muslim" to avoid any hint of sectarianism. Some reject all hadith, while others consider the Hadith as having some historical value as secondary source material that may be studied for academic purposes (with rigorous scrutiny) and those that do not contradict the Quran can be considered useful for certain tasks mandated by the Quran, such as the physical aspect of 'Salat'/Prayer, but both of these groups reject the authority of the Hadith as a source of law.

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Message 1622840 - Posted: 3 Jan 2015, 18:15:11 UTC - in response to Message 1622823.  
Last modified: 3 Jan 2015, 18:17:51 UTC

To me it seems that jihadists can not read.
In the Koran there are no texts that say you should kill infidels.

Correct, they are written in the hadiths.
Hadith (/ˈhædɪθ/[1] or /hɑːˈdiːθ/;[2] Arabic: حديث‎) in Muslim religious use is often translated as "prophetic traditions", meaning the corpus of the reports of the teachings, deeds and sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. The hadith literature was compiled from oral reports that were in circulation in society around the time of their compilation long after the death of Muhammad. Bukhari's collection is considered the most reliable by many traditional religious scholars who are Sunnis. The Shi'as believe in an entirely separate body of Hadith.
...
A growing number of Muslims have begun to reject the authority of the Hadith in favor of the primary authority of the Quran (See Criticism of Hadith). They cite numerous verses of the Quran (e.g. 6:114, 31:6, 45:6 and 77:50) to support their argument. Some call themselves "Quranists", while others avoid such titles, labeling themselves as "Muslim" to avoid any hint of sectarianism. Some reject all hadith, while others consider the Hadith as having some historical value as secondary source material that may be studied for academic purposes (with rigorous scrutiny) and those that do not contradict the Quran can be considered useful for certain tasks mandated by the Quran, such as the physical aspect of 'Salat'/Prayer, but both of these groups reject the authority of the Hadith as a source of law.

The word hadith derives from the three-letter Arabic verbal root of ج-ه-د J-H-D (jahada, struggle')
The Sunnis and the Shi'as dont share the same interpretion of the Islamic view.
A problem? Of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijtihad
To make a joke. In Swedish "jahada" means "So what"
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Message 1622973 - Posted: 3 Jan 2015, 23:36:44 UTC - in response to Message 1622801.  

We don't excuse NAZI's, and ask 'What did we do to make them'.

First, yeah we do. We totally asked what made the Nazis tick and we totally asked what made Hitler tick. Both on a psychological and sociological level. You just never bothered to ask those questions.

Second, asking what lead to a certain event is not excusing said event.
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Message 1623111 - Posted: 4 Jan 2015, 10:07:20 UTC - in response to Message 1623021.  

You just kill them, before they kill you.

Asking what makes them commit Mass Murder, is just an Academic Exercise. Which is studied AFTERWARDS.

Glad you not in charge with protecting Innocent people from the NAZI's and Their Cousins, the Jihadists.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” - Sun Tzu

Its gonna be a long and bloody fight if people like you are in charge. People who are willfully ignorant of who or what they are fighting.
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Message 1623211 - Posted: 4 Jan 2015, 15:12:57 UTC - in response to Message 1623196.  
Last modified: 4 Jan 2015, 15:13:39 UTC

Your Academic Unthinking has extended this war way beyond the time needed to defeat them.

I would argue that American policy makers ignorance on who and what they were fighting has caused this war to be extended for so much longer than was necessary.

Since no one can defeat an idea (IE: Nazism). You defeat their Ability to Kill You. By whatever Barbaric Methods one talks themselves into doing. Just Human Nature, and a History you refuse to acknowledge.

Not really. People did practically defeat Nazism as an idea. It has been thoroughly discredited and has now become a fringe movement, unacceptable to the larger public. And not because the allied had bombed Germany into a giant ruin. If they had just done that and let Germany be afterwards, they would have won the war but there would be a new Nazi movement ready for round three within a few decades.

Do you know what the original plan for Germany was after the war? It was exactly what you would have suggested. The complete destruction of the German capability to ever make war again. Destruction of all their industry, country would be divided in a number of smaller countries, with each of those countries main form of industry would be agriculture. Millions of people would have to be starved to death. You can be sure that such a method of mass brutality would be remembered by the Germans and that by the time you were done with them they would forever carry a burning hatred for those responsible for such a policy.

But that didnt happen. And why? Because the allied commanders understood what had caused the Nazi movement to become popular in the first place. The economic crisis, the Versailles treaty and the way it had hurt the national feelings of the Germans. They made sure not to make the same mistakes again. So instead of breaking the Germans, they instituted the Marshall plan, turned Germany into a democratic federal republic, and slowly welcomed it back into the European and world community as valuable partners. Now look at them. Industrial superpower, economic powerhouse of Europe, and with only a fringe movement of neo-nazis.

It is really just a Practical Exercise. Undertaken by the Technicians of War and Killing

You don't understand who and what you are fighting, hence you do not know their actual weak spots, and you don't know how to end it. Its why you lost in Vietnam, its why you lost in Afghanistan and in Iraq and its why you will lose again in this conflict. You just don't want to understand the concept that while you can win all the battles, you can still lose the war.

Question: Do you understand, and will you accept the inevitable?

Answer: No.

Indeed, no, because I dont see it as inevitable or see that what you call the 'inevitable' as a solution to the problem.
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Message 1623454 - Posted: 5 Jan 2015, 4:30:05 UTC - in response to Message 1623218.  

Мишель...

They are what they are.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

There are NO Solutions to any of this, until Human Beings Evolve. It will continue, and continue, and continue.

All you do is protect Yourself, and YOUR loved One's NOW. That's all.

Will The Murder's Family Hate, and try to Kill You for Killing Their Loved One.

So? Who cares.

Compassion, and Understanding for those Killing YOUR Family, is Suicidal.

Let those, who may Not be the Best Persons in The World, do their job.

Sounds to me that we should be targeting the clerics who are propagating this hate onto the western world. So and So issued a fatwa for some ones death. Drone strike. And that would also apply to the hate from western clerics.
[/quote]

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Message 1623567 - Posted: 5 Jan 2015, 10:28:47 UTC - in response to Message 1623218.  
Last modified: 5 Jan 2015, 10:29:02 UTC

There are NO Solutions to any of this, until Human Beings Evolve. It will continue, and continue, and continue.

We defeated Nazism and turned it into some irrelevant fringe movement, not by throwing enough bombs on them, but by providing people a superior alternative while discrediting Nazism as a viable ideology.

At the same time, the US lost in Vietnam because it was utterly convinced that they could win if they just dropped enough bombs on the enemy, if they just killed enough of the VC. And trust me, the US did exactly that. They won all the battles, the kill-death ratios were always in favor of the Americans, more tons of explosive were dropped on Vietnam than in the entirety of WW2. If you were right, and it was just a matter of superior firepower, then by all accounts you would have won in Vietnam. But you didn't because you are wrong.

So we have two historical examples, one where an idea was thoroughly defeated, and one where non of that happened and you lost. Yet you are still arguing we should do the exact same thing as what the US did 50 years ago in Vietnam, while expecting the results to be different this time. I call that madness and I believe it shows you do not understand Art of War.


Let those, who may Not be the Best Persons in The World, do their job.

I would happily let them do their job if I was sure that is whats needed. I'm however sure that is exactly what we don't need right now.
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Message 1623569 - Posted: 5 Jan 2015, 10:32:08 UTC - in response to Message 1623476.  
Last modified: 5 Jan 2015, 10:32:50 UTC

Has it caught anyone's attention, that NONE of The Jihadist Leaders Die while FIGHTING 'The Infidels'.

They either MEEKLY Surrender, hide behind a Wife, or are killed in Bombing/Drone Strikes.

Don't they believe their own Religion?

Don't they believe, as they preach to their Followers, that they will go to a Heaven, where they will be able to RAPE 72 Virgins?

Perhaps these Jihadist leaders, and leaders of Iran, are REALLY Atheists. Using a religion for their own evil ends.

Good job equating the leaders of Iran with Jihadists, even when it makes no goddamn sense.

Also, whats your point? A bunch of terrorists acting like terrorists and not following their own religion? Does that surprise you? I thought it would be obvious that terrorists are probably not all that big on understanding or following their own religion.

Sure, it would be nice if they led by example and were the first to blow themselves up. Perhaps they wouldn't have been such a problem then.
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Message 1624846 - Posted: 7 Jan 2015, 12:28:52 UTC

Three villages in Syria were subjected to attacks with chlorine gas last year. The conclusion drawn by the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) in a report.
http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/byar-i-syrien-angreps-med-klorgas/
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Message 1624863 - Posted: 7 Jan 2015, 13:20:03 UTC - in response to Message 1623688.  
Last modified: 7 Jan 2015, 13:20:45 UTC

We defeated Their WAR MACHINE. Not Their Ideology.

Yes you did. Nazism is a fringe movement these days and completely unacceptable to the majority of people. Thats as defeated as an idea can get.

They are a 'Fringe Movement' because we Destroyed Their Ability to Wage War.

26 years prior to that you also destroyed their ability to wage war. They rebuild that ability and started all over again. After WW2, they once again rebuild their ability to wage war. Yet, they have not invaded any neighbors. If anything, modern Germany has been extremely reluctant to use their army for anything more than self defense in a NATO context.

Such different outcomes after destroying a countries ability to wage war clearly suggest something else has happened as well, something that has ensured that this time things went different. Clearly in order to pacify a country or a region, something besides temporarily destroying the ability to wage war must happen.

They are no longer a threat because we, by Mass Killing of Innocents, STOPPED their Control of a Country. (Does make one think of ISIS)

Of course not. Nazism is an idea, an ideology. You can shoot the leaders, but if the idea isn't discredited, new leaders would have risen. Just look at Al Queda or the Taliban. How many of their leaders have been killed by Allied forces? Has it at any point stopped them from existing? So far for every leader you have killed, another has replaced him.

Superior Ideology/Religion has NEVER Defeated Superior Power.

Yes it did. Mao defeated the Chinese government, who by all accounts had much more power. The Vietcong and North Vietnam thoroughly defeated the US while the US had superior military power. Afghanistan and Iraq both have been disasters for the Americans and in both cases the enemy was little more than a bunch of fanatics with old Soviet gear and home made bombs.

You're living in an Academic/Religious Dream World. Where Goodness will trump Evil, because it is Superior. Where?

I have never talked in terms of good and evil so this argument is bunk.

Can you enter Reality?

Im not the one who thinks superior firepower trumps all and considers understanding the enemy a pointless academic exercise. Im not the one who needs to enter reality.

Iran:

Placed Iran's Leaders with the Jihadists. When have they ever Committed Suicide for their Religion?

They, as The Jihadist Leaders, are Afraid of Death. Therefore, they don't 'Practice What They Preach'.

Shows me they are Really Unbelievers.

I do not believe the Iranian leadership has ever preached suicide attacks against anyone.
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Message 1624870 - Posted: 7 Jan 2015, 13:35:34 UTC
Last modified: 7 Jan 2015, 14:26:19 UTC

Attack on French satire newspaper
Armed offenders have stormed into the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdos editorial in central Paris. 12 people have been killed and an unknown number are injured.
The newspaper published in the night a satire subscribe to his twitter account depicting the leader of jihadistgruppen Islamic State (IS), Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.
The perpetrators are said to have shouted "Allahu Akbar" ("God is great") and "we have avenged the prophet".
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/live/direktrapport-skottlossning-mot-satirtidning-i-paris
https://twitter.com/Charlie_Hebdo_/status/552773881283764224/photo/1
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Message 1624899 - Posted: 7 Jan 2015, 14:59:45 UTC - in response to Message 1624887.  
Last modified: 7 Jan 2015, 15:10:04 UTC

Attack on French satire newspaper
Armed offenders have stormed into the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdos editorial in central Paris. 12 people have been killed and an unknown number are injured.
The newspaper published in the night a satire subscribe to his twitter account depicting the leader of jihadistgruppen Islamic State (IS), Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.
The perpetrators are said to have shouted "Allahu Akbar" ("God is great") and "we have avenged the prophet".
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/live/direktrapport-skottlossning-mot-satirtidning-i-paris
https://twitter.com/Charlie_Hebdo_/status/552773881283764224/photo/1

If just One Newspaper 'Self-Censorship's' themselves: They have won.
This is not a Police Matter, nor a Silly Little Academic Exercise to Educate People, in a better way.
We are fighting for our very existence, and values.
To those in this thread who are understandably unwilling to enter reality:
What would you do now, to stop their ability to murder and destroy, everything you hold sacred?

Evil has always hated humor because humor shows how ridiculous and petty evil is.
It is an attack on democracy and free speech, and the worst that can happen now is that it intimidate others into silence. That would mean that terrorists and other can silence free speech with threats of violence.
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Message 1625055 - Posted: 7 Jan 2015, 19:38:37 UTC - in response to Message 1624905.  

All a lot of fuss about nothing according to some ars**oles around here. Ok tell that to the families of the twelve murdered people in Paris.


It seems that you use crudity when it suits you. Why don't you write a stiff complaint to your MP & tell him that you have no desire to see this on the streets of Britain...

...wait a minute, hasn't it already happened?

As for your crudity, have to agree with you, however, they're not around here but in the corridors of power. So have a quiet word with your leader, that's if you can locate him!
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Message 1625100 - Posted: 7 Jan 2015, 20:49:53 UTC - in response to Message 1624905.  

All a lot of fuss about nothing according to some people around here. Ok tell that to the families of the twelve murdered people in Paris.

I can't help but feel thats directed at me.

Terrorism only works if you make a big fuss about it. The more you let terrorists scare you into a panic, into some reaction of disgust and hatred, the more you further their cause. The perfect response to terrorism would be to treat it like ordinary murder committed by insane people or indeed, cultists, up to the point of declaring the perpetrators to be criminally insane and to be locked away in a psychiatric hospital instead of a prison, where they can be treated or deprogrammed. I see two points why this is better than treating them as normal criminals. For one, it completely dismisses the ideological/religious aspect behind terrorism as something that can't be taken serious but is simply the result of cultist brainwashing or mental instability. What better way to show people who go this far in their political or religious believes that society sees their views not as threats that need to be locked away because they are dangerous, but as products of delusional fantasies conjured up by broken minds, to be pitied and treated as illnesses. Secondly, I honestly believe that terrorist organization do operate much like cults do, and that the majority of people that join them are fundamentally not bad people, but victims caught up in a social process that brainwashes them and pushes them to do things they would ordinarily never do. I don't think there is much of a difference between the young people from Mansons cult who committed murder and young people from this Jihadist cult who commit murder.

Now as for me thinking terrorism isn't something that is such a big deal. Well face it, it isn't. In 2013 in France 3250 people died in traffic accidents. Thats a little less than 10 people per day. In the UK, 2175 people died in traffic accidents (in 2012). How many people died that year of terrorism in each of those countries? Right, not even a fraction of that number. In fact, bees and wasps are just as deadly as terrorists in the UK. But do we spend billions of Euros on traffic controls? Do we give almost unlimited authority to traffic police to combat traffic accidents? Do we spend billions of Euros on bee and wasp containment policies? No, we don't.

So yeah, I'm really sorry for the families of the people that died, I truly am, and I think its horrible that this attack happened. But get some goddamn perspective people.

And this is also why those terror threat levels are nonsense. The chance of getting killed by terrorists is apparently just as big as dying of a bee sting. So should the government then also set up a bee and wasp sting threat level? No, because that would be a dumb waste of everyones time, and you can probably understand why. So why the big deal about terrorism? Because its more flashy than death by wasp sting? Because the media over hype the whole thing while you'd be lucky if you get more than 5 sentences in the local town paper if you die of a wasp sting? Again, get some perspective.
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