Nor the Military. Just consider all the white papers they had to allow Bin Ladden to be shot in his bedroom, unarmed.

Your RoE is for peacetime. The wartime RoE is kill the enemy. Exception, they are obviously attempting to surrender.

The RoE changes depending on how dangerous a zone is. And usually that means fire only when fired upon, as well as different stages of weapon readiness (safety on or off, finger off the trigger or not, etc).

Compare that to the American police who go for their guns the moment they feel 'threatened' or 'scared'. Deadly force is deemed justified the moment the officer claims he was 'fearing for his life' even though it turns out there was no reason to fear for his life because the guy he shot turned out to not even have a weapon.

Again, what is your exit strategy? I suspect you don't have one anymore than there was one in Vietnam, turn tail and run.

I told you, it would take decades to stabilize, rebuild, return legitimacy to the state and bring back together the various factions within the country. There is no exit strategy because if you want to do this, there won't be an exit for the next 20 years.

The US should not use its military except when the mission is to obtain an instrument of surrender. Don't forget that instrument of surrender terminates the enemy, they have no land or possessions, their subjects are now your slaves. Perhaps you never saw an item marked "Made in Occupied Japan" or "Made in Occupied Germany."

They are not going to surrender nor are you going to terminate them all if you think you can win this with brute force.

If we were to go in, we should not as of now, then we must do so only to completely defeat them, to the point where we have the option to turn them into the 51st state of the US. We can not use our military as a police force going in, changing a few scoundrels for a few different ones, have a month or two of stability, and then turn tail and run, declaring victory.

Again, I already said this fight would take decades. Which is why this fight is not going to happen, and if the US deploys troops, it will be because some idiot in Washington believes all the jingoistic nonsense they have been spouting during the election campaign. It will fail, and the region will be even worse off than before.

Is that the experience from your long career in US Law Enforcement and the Military speaking again?

No, but I know what the RoE for the US military is, and you don't need to be an expert in law enforcement to know that the police in the US does not follow those RoE at all. Shoot only when fired upon does not appear to be a thing with the police.

Nor the Military. Just consider all the white papers they had to allow Bin Ladden to be shot in his bedroom, unarmed.

Your RoE is for peacetime. The wartime RoE is kill the enemy. Exception, they are obviously attempting to surrender.

Again, what is your exit strategy? I suspect you don't have one anymore than there was one in Vietnam, turn tail and run.

The US should not use its military except when the mission is to obtain an instrument of surrender. Don't forget that instrument of surrender terminates the enemy, they have no land or possessions, their subjects are now your slaves. Perhaps you never saw an item marked "Made in Occupied Japan" or "Made in Occupied Germany."

If we were to go in, we should not as of now, then we must do so only to completely defeat them, to the point where we have the option to turn them into the 51st state of the US. We can not use our military as a police force going in, changing a few scoundrels for a few different ones, have a month or two of stability, and then turn tail and run, declaring victory.

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Hmmm. But what about Saudi Arabia? They are steps ahead of IS.
Saudi Arabia blocked Sweden after criticism of human rights and lack of democracy in the country.

Agreed, Saudi Arabia has repressed women's rights and has been the sponsor of their own form of Terrorism usually untraceable through 'private donors'. Bin Laden was well known to be Saudi. BUT, so far they have not engaged in infanticide and other heinous acts PUBLICLY.

Not only women's right are repressed in Saudi.
And Bin Laden family... 9/11 comes to mind.

Now that the US has no need for Middle East oil maybe it's time for Europe and Scandinavia to step up to the plate and settle things there if just to replace Russian energy sources. :D))

Scandinavia? (Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland. Finland and Estonia have a different situation)
We dont have to buy Russian energy sources.
It only depend on the prize if we choose to do it.

I never have liked the US being 'in bed' with the Saudis but on the surface they were one of the most reasonable Arab states to deal with. Now that the US has no need for Middle East oil maybe it's time for Europe and Scandinavia to step up to the plate and settle things there if just to replace Russian energy sources. :D))

Actually the states that were the most reasonable to deal with are Iran and Iraq under Saddam. But the US foreign policy of the past 30 years is some of the most short sighted idiotic foreign policy imaginable so of course you make deals with a country like Saudi Arabia.

Is that the experience from your long career in US Law Enforcement and the Military speaking again?

No, but I know what the RoE for the US military is, and you don't need to be an expert in law enforcement to know that the police in the US does not follow those RoE at all. Shoot only when fired upon does not appear to be a thing with the police.

With regard to ISIS, you don't negotiate with Cockroaches, you exterminate them. The best exterminators in the world is the US Military. What happens after the bugs are squashed is the business of the residents of the country, if they choose to continue killing innocent women and children, you squash them again.

Well except that you guys have been squashing these roaches ever since you invaded Iraq, and you haven't even come close to exterminating them. The US military is good at fighting traditional armies, but they suck at fighting these types of war. Its Vietnam all over again, you win the battles but lose the war. You guys dominate the tactical spectrum, but think that 'peace through superior firepower' is an actual workable strategy that can be applied in every type of conflict.

I realize that the concept of real evil in the world is foreign to your 'give 'em a hug' dogma but when it's your sister, mother, niece or nephew your viewpoint will be entirely different.

Do not presume to know my viewpoint because its obvious you haven't got the faintest idea what it actually is. I suggest you go to Amazon and purchase two books:

-ISIS Inside the army of terror by Micheal Weiss and Hassan Hassan, which gives an excellent overview of the history of ISIS, as well as the repeated and failed attempts of the US to stop them.

-New and Old Wars Organized Violence in a Global Era by Mary Kaldor. It explains exactly what kind of conflict we are dealing with here, and how it should be fought and won by us.

Read those books and maybe you understand what my viewpoint is.

Otherwise, keep spouting the jingoist nonsense and watch how the US army enters another unwinnable conflict that costs billions and gains you nothing but trouble.

Hmmm. But what about Saudi Arabia? They are steps ahead of IS.
Saudi Arabia blocked Sweden after criticism of human rights and lack of democracy in the country.

Agreed, Saudi Arabia has repressed women's rights and has been the sponsor of their own form of Terrorism usually untraceable through 'private donors'. Bin Laden was well known to be Saudi. BUT, so far they have not engaged in infanticide and other heinous acts PUBLICLY.

I never have liked the US being 'in bed' with the Saudis but on the surface they were one of the most reasonable Arab states to deal with. Now that the US has no need for Middle East oil maybe it's time for Europe and Scandinavia to step up to the plate and settle things there if just to replace Russian energy sources. :D))

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

With regard to ISIS, you don't negotiate with Cockroaches, you exterminate them. The best exterminators in the world is the US Military. What happens after the bugs are squashed is the business of the residents of the country, if they choose to continue killing innocent women and children, you squash them again.

Hmmm. But what about Saudi Arabia? They are steps ahead of IS.
Saudi Arabia blocked Sweden after criticism of human rights and lack of democracy in the country.

Also, the militarization of US police is a problem because instead of training the police like the military, you guys just give them military equipment without ever training them in how to use it properly. The rules of engagement used by the police are completely unacceptable by any military standards. If the American military were to police, black lives matter wouldn't happen, because the military wouldn't wave their guns around as much and they wouldn't end up shooting unarmed suspects.

Is that the experience from your long career in US Law Enforcement and the Military speaking again?

With regard to ISIS, you don't negotiate with Cockroaches, you exterminate them. The best exterminators in the world is the US Military. What happens after the bugs are squashed is the business of the residents of the country, if they choose to continue killing innocent women and children, you squash them again.

I realize that the concept of real evil in the world is foreign to your 'give 'em a hug' dogma but when it's your sister, mother, niece or nephew your viewpoint will be entirely different.

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

What is the exit strategy?

It seems you are arguing police tactics, not military engagement.

Exit strategy for the military is the enemy signs an unconditional surrender.

You are fighting an enemy that cannot sign an unconditional surrender, nor would it do such a thing if it could. This is not an enemy that can be defeated by killing them quicker than they can replenish themselves. Do not bother fighting a war like that because it will only serve to continue the conflict.

The old saying that 'speed is the essence of war' does not apply to groups like IS or Al Nusra. They can and will outlast you if you try to fight them like that. They profit from it and they will defeat you because of it.

The military is not a police force and should not be used as such. Here in the USA we have a problem because we militarized our police. It doesn't work, and we have Black Lives Matter as a result. So you want Sunni Lives Matter and Shiite Lives Matter on your blood stained hands also?

If you want to solve this conflict you have no choice in the matter. The military will have to act like a police force, it must remain a neutral force that punishes all transgressors equally and uphold the rule of law. That way, human rights violations will stop and society can begin to rebuild itself again along humanitarian principles.

Also, the militarization of US police is a problem because instead of training the police like the military, you guys just give them military equipment without ever training them in how to use it properly. The rules of engagement used by the police are completely unacceptable by any military standards. If the American military were to police, black lives matter wouldn't happen, because the military wouldn't wave their guns around as much and they wouldn't end up shooting unarmed suspects.

What is the exit strategy?

It seems you are arguing police tactics, not military engagement.

Exit strategy for the military is the enemy signs an unconditional surrender.

The military is not a police force and should not be used as such. Here in the USA we have a problem because we militarized our police. It doesn't work, and we have Black Lives Matter as a result. So you want Sunni Lives Matter and Shiite Lives Matter on your blood stained hands also?

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And with every word spoken in debate about the 'best strategy' another 1,000 women and children are butchered and enslaved. There is a solution but it requires a level of physical and moral courage found in very few leaders today. They are too worried about the way they or their power base will look in the next election.

And every wrong strategy employed can kill 10.000 women and children in the following years. Just look at Libya. We intervened, we picked a side, and now the country is on fire. Our intervention was short sighted and now the country is going to burn. Is that what you want for Syria and Iraq?

On top of that, the right strategy, which will take decades to see through, well yeah, that requires some long term thinking and that is something that our current politicians are fundamentally incapable off. But can you blame them? They will lose the next election because our current society is not interested in solutions that take decades to work out.

And with every word spoken in debate about the 'best strategy' another 1,000 women and children are butchered and enslaved. There is a solution but it requires a level of physical and moral courage found in very few leaders today. They are too worried about the way they or their power base will look in the next election.

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

The question is, do NOT the civilized nations of the World have a moral obligation to stop what is being perpetrated by ISIS and Assad?

Yeah, but how do you do that without making things even worse? The rule for military intervention and regime change should always be that your intervention and regime change cannot result in an even worse situation than before your intervention.

And sadly we see that in the majority of our interventions, we actually make things a lot worse than before we intervened. We may have the best intentions, but those intentions mean nothing if we cause thousands more to die. It is as they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You may be correct regarding any solutions.

BTW: If this mass murdering, beheading, raping, was happening in Europe. Let's just say in the former Yugoslavia:

Would your thinking, regarding attempting to save European Women from rape and slavery, be different?

Its not like I don't want to help those people. But before you can help people, you need to understand what the best approach to helping really is. And then you need to determine whether you are willing and able to do what it takes to help. Blindly stumbling into a conflict where we don't understand the underlying dynamics, where we don't have an actual long term strategy on how to disrupt and stop these dynamics, that is not helping, that is only making things worse. Remember how we thought we were 'helping' the Iraqi's when we invaded their country? And see what our lack of understanding has resulted in? We cannot afford to repeat that mistake or this conflict will continue to burn into the next decade.

There are solutions to this type of conflict, except they are politically impossible to implement as they clash with geo strategic interests of China and Russia, require billions of dollars and a complete overhaul of military strategy.

You may be correct regarding any solutions.

BTW: If this mass murdering, beheading, raping, was happening in Europe. Let's just say in the former Yugoslavia:

Would your thinking, regarding attempting to save European Women from rape and slavery, be different?

The World made a decision, in 1946 in Nuremberg that certain actions were not to be tolerated, period. The murder of innocents by any group was deemed a 'Crime against Humanity',

The question is, do NOT the civilized nations of the World have a moral obligation to stop what is being perpetrated by ISIS and Assad?

If the answer is no, then the UN should be disbanded and each country fend for itself.

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

So be glad you got Obama and not some idiot that started another ground war that would have taken another 5-10 years with no gains whatsoever.

WOW, Мишель, I would NEVER have expected a statement like that from you.....

....take another BIG SIP!

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

Blablabla Obama sucks because he doesn't recklessly send in troops into a conflict the US doesn't comprehend nor is equipped to fight. What a worthless commander indeed.

Has Obama's policy failed? Yeah sure, but it has failed because there literally is no policy that would have succeeded at this point in time. A more aggressive president would have turned this ugly mess into an even bigger mess. So be glad you got Obama and not some idiot that started another ground war that would have taken another 5-10 years with no gains whatsoever.

I watched 'Frontline/Obama's War' on the uber liberal Public Broadcasting System last night. It was surprisingly critical of the non-strategy that exists blaming Obummer's failure to followup on his threat of air strikes against the Assad regime.

Maybe even those who drank the Obama Koolaid in 2008 are finally starting to realize what they have done.....

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

Does anyone else see the basic flaw in sending 450 troops to an airbase located halfway between two cities recently captured by ISIS? There are an estimated 8 to 12,000 ISIS ‘troops’ in Iraq, They would LOVE the chance to capture then publicly murder American soldiers.

WHO IS GOING TO PROTECT those 450 Americans from the SURROUNDING ISIS terrorists? The Iraqi Army? ISIS has proven the life of their soldiers is cheap and they would sacrifice as many as needed to capture even ONE American soldier.

Sending anything less than a FULL BRIGADE with armor and air support is a suicide mission. Imagine what the image of American Soldiers being caged and burned alive or beheaded appearing on the internet would do for ISIS recruitment.

I SINCERELY hope I’m wrong, or that someone stops this stupidity before what I feel is inevitable occurs.

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"Sour Grapes make a bitter Whine." <(0)>

Norwegian 18-year old man has been arrested by Swedish security police at Landvetter Airport in Gothenburg. He should have tried to join the terror group IS in Syria. "We have had good cooperation with SÄPO", says Martin Bernsen in Norwegian PST.
He's an ethnic Norwegian Citizen and resides in Oslo.
https://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dn.se%2Fnyheter%2Fvarlden%2Fterrormisstankt-norrman-gripen-i-goteborg%2F&edit-text=