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What childhood indoctrination? No one indoctrinated me.

You just told me you were a few posts ago.

Symbols are what people make of them. A hammer and a sickle are just laboring tools, but if you make them yellow on a red background they gain a whole new meaning.

Yeah, crosses were used to kill people. But before the Romans the cross was already a popular symbol (a symbol for fire and the sun, eg life). For Christians the cross generally doesn't stand for a torture device. It stands for Jesus sacrificing himself to save humanity and opening the gates to heaven.

And whether you buy that or not is irrelevant. You can also walk around with the yellow hammer and sickle on a red background and claim it stands for capitalism and freedom. I doubt anyone will agree with you and accept your interpretation of the symbol.

Right, now you are getting the topic of the this thread. The cross was put up with claims that it was not a Christian symbol.

Yeah except we stopped burying everyone at local church cemeteries decades ago. The maps still show crosses though. And I very much doubt that has anything to do with the religious convictions of the map makers. Its just that in the west we have also come to associate crosses with burial sites.

Map symbols have been around a bit longer than decades.

I dunno about burial sites in Canada, but in the Netherlands, burial sites are on municipality grounds thus everyone can be buried there.

and as pointed out a few posts ago, Jewish graves aren't marked with a cross.

A separation of Church and State does not mean that at a site like Ground Zero there can't be any symbols that might hint at a religion. Such symbols do not affect the separation between church and state.

I am not sure who decided what symbols went there or not. I just think it is very telling that the dominant symbol chosen was a cross.

Its just pretty hard to find a neat, simple, easy to remember symbol to instantly connects to his other teachings, nor do they so nicely connect to the bit where Jesus, according to Christians, saves humanity through self sacrifice. While undoubtedly Freud would have a field day (which honestly is an extremely low bar given that Freud would have a field day with pretty much everything) from a marketing perspective it makes a lot of sense too. And you got to give the Church credit, they know how to run a major franchise.

Also, from what I've read about the cross as a symbol, early Christians didn't actually use the cross that much as a symbol. Only a few centuries after Christ did the cross become the big symbol for Christians.

Exactly, because most of the religion is just made up and nothing to do with the actual teachings of Jesus.

I dunno, I think most graveyards in Europe these days are operated by the local governments. And the source of it is irrelevant. Marriage also used to be a religious ceremony, but it to became a secular thing once the state started attaching weight to it. Now marriage is both secular and religious. So why can't the cross be both a secular symbol for graveyards and a religious symbol for Christians?

Really? I would be very upset if someone stuck a cross over my grave. Well obviously I wouldn't because I'd be dead, but you get the idea. Surely I get to decide what symbols represent me and my family? Shouldn't those who lost people at 9/11 get that consideration?

And come on, America was founded by religious cults that were to crazy even for Europe. They might have had this revolution based on enlightenment ideals (to which they mostly only paid lip service) but its culture is still rooted in European culture.

Europe is such a big mishmash, plus they have the indigenous American cultures mixed in along with African culture. There is also a very large atheist population there despite (or because of) the religious nuts. Atheists are getting more vocal as they get fed up with religions dictating how they have to live and its a good thing.

There are lots of more unifying symbols that could have been put at the 9/11 memorial site. Symbols that might have better represented what America was supposed to be about. The fact that one religions symbol was given a special place is very divisive and is not going to help the healing process.

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Reality Internet Personality

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

I don't you are quite over your childhood indoctrination.

Except it doesn't look, walk or quacks like a duck.

What childhood indoctrination? No one indoctrinated me.

Never seen it, so I can't base my view on it. The whole religion is based on a made up view (mainly Paul who had his own agenda) of what Jesus was about. They worship a dead man. It doesn't make it better that everyone keeps pretending that he didn't actually die. I would think better of the religion if they did, because then it actually was a sacrifice rather than a David Blaine trick.

Ugh, its just lots of gore, you didn't miss anything, unless thats your thing of course.

They have cruifixes everywhere. Everyday. They pray over them. Lots of Catholics wear them. They have them in their houses. I'm sorry, I'm just not buying this argument that its not a symbol of death considering how many people died on crucifixes, Jesus wasn't by any means the only one.

Symbols are what people make of them. A hammer and a sickle are just laboring tools, but if you make them yellow on a red background they gain a whole new meaning.

Yeah, crosses were used to kill people. But before the Romans the cross was already a popular symbol (a symbol for fire and the sun, eg life). For Christians the cross generally doesn't stand for a torture device. It stands for Jesus sacrificing himself to save humanity and opening the gates to heaven.

And whether you buy that or not is irrelevant. You can also walk around with the yellow hammer and sickle on a red background and claim it stands for capitalism and freedom. I doubt anyone will agree with you and accept your interpretation of the symbol.

That says more about the map makers and their beliefs. Also, most graveyards do generally have one faith in them. The cross on maps originally symbolised churches, which on Europe usually had graveyards associated with them. Id be interested to know how they mark Native American burial sites on a map.

Yeah except we stopped burying everyone at local church cemeteries decades ago. The maps still show crosses though. And I very much doubt that has anything to do with the religious convictions of the map makers. Its just that in the west we have also come to associate crosses with burial sites.

I dunno about burial sites in Canada, but in the Netherlands, burial sites are on municipality grounds thus everyone can be buried there.

Care? I don't really care what they put at 9/11. If they put a mosque, or a cross, or a statue of Satan I wouldn't care. What I do care about is the America obsession with Christianity being the default and correct religion. I think it is dangerous. A separation of Church and State was put in the constitution for a reason. Probably because they founding fathers still had strong enough ties to Europe to remember the destructive power the Church held there for so long. In the UK so much our our history is littered with wars over religion and power struggles between the state and the church. We have a very good understanding as to why it is so necessary for religion to be kept out of government if you want a free functioning democracy. The cross at ground zero is not strictly a religious symbol, it is a political one considering its location and the history of the site.

A separation of Church and State does not mean that at a site like Ground Zero there can't be any symbols that might hint at a religion. Such symbols do not affect the separation between church and state.

All the other stuff he did with his life (that is more likely to actually be real) and they pick that, Freud would have a field day.

Its just pretty hard to find a neat, simple, easy to remember symbol to instantly connects to his other teachings, nor do they so nicely connect to the bit where Jesus, according to Christians, saves humanity through self sacrifice. While undoubtedly Freud would have a field day (which honestly is an extremely low bar given that Freud would have a field day with pretty much everything) from a marketing perspective it makes a lot of sense too. And you got to give the Church credit, they know how to run a major franchise.

Also, from what I've read about the cross as a symbol, early Christians didn't actually use the cross that much as a symbol. Only a few centuries after Christ did the cross become the big symbol for Christians.

Christian culture does. Again, because graveyards are usually church land. American doesn't have the same history as Europe. One would hope they would have learned from it, but clearly they haven't.

I dunno, I think most graveyards in Europe these days are operated by the local governments. And the source of it is irrelevant. Marriage also used to be a religious ceremony, but it to became a secular thing once the state started attaching weight to it. Now marriage is both secular and religious. So why can't the cross be both a secular symbol for graveyards and a religious symbol for Christians?

And come on, America was founded by religious cults that were to crazy even for Europe. They might have had this revolution based on enlightenment ideals (to which they mostly only paid lip service) but its culture is still rooted in European culture.

Western culture and Christianity are linked in so many ways.

The entire world is linked to Christianity; this is the year of our lord 2014.

The entire world doesn't use that calender.

The world will use the calendar that Wall Street uses just as they use the dollar of Wall Street if they want to engage in business and prosper. Putin and his ilk don't use their church's Julian calender when filling out a deposit slip.

Take a note of the fourth row, fifth in from the right.

Wiccans dedicate grave at Arlington.
What a country!

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I guess Es99 can't stop. But that's his intolerance.

LOL. I'm a very tolerant person. I am just pointing out that there seems to be an assumption that the default religion is Christian, just like there is an assumption that the default gender is male.

Speaking as a Tolerant Atheist: I welcome ALL of the Believer's symbols, and do not wish to subject their Speech to attack.

You should extend that tolerance to atheists. You are the one who was on the attack here.

Just one question. What exactly is anyone's problem with Jesus, the method of His Death, and purported Resurrection? If we all followed His teachings, we would be a much better world.

I don't think you get how this atheist thing works. Atheists don't tend to worship men as gods or believe that they were actually resurrected.

However, Muslims also believe in Jesus and his teachings. The association with Jesus and the cross is a particularly Christian thing.

The Museum has had complaints about an anti Muslim video that is shown there. Not an anti terrorist (I think it is safe to say that most of us here are against terrorism and murdering innocent people, but I don't want to assume) video, but an anti Muslim video. So why is there such an intent to polarise the two religions? Why is the Christian cross given so much prominence? These are the questions I would like answered.

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Reality Internet Personality

I guess Es99 can't stop. But that's his intolerance.

Speaking as a Tolerant Atheist: I welcome ALL of the Believer's symbols, and do not wish to subject their Speech to attack.

Just one question. What exactly is anyone's problem with Jesus, the method of His Death, and purported Resurrection? If we all followed His teachings, we would be a much better world.

Good Point...However if someone "Slaps One Cheek" on me I'm gonna Knock the snot outta 'em.
Also if someone enters My House without Knocking while I'm in Bed the Police can collect them from the Porch.

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I Desire Peace and Justice, Jim Scott (Mod-Ret.)

I don't think these care about what graveyard they're in...



...but I bet they would be disgusted at the state of the union today!

Take a note of the fourth row, fifth in from the right.

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Western culture and Christianity are linked in so many ways.

The entire world is linked to Christianity; this is the year of our lord 2014.

The entire world doesn't use that calender.

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Reality Internet Personality

I am not sure you are in a position to speak for most Christians. Most Christians on the planet are in fact Catholics. They spend a lot of time focusing on Jesus' death. Their rituals even include eating his body and drinking his blood.

I was raised Catholic, my parents are Catholics and I went to the Church fairly often when I was younger. No, they do not focus on his death or death in general. Most of the time they talk about the things Jesus did when he was still alive, the stories he told, or stories of things he did. Yeah sure, during communion they do the whole eat his body and drink his blood bit, but if you honestly think that is about his death you really have no clue what Catholicism is about.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

I don't you are quite over your childhood indoctrination.

I've spent a lot of time in Church schools (both as a student and as a teacher) to know that the manner of his death is a big feature.

Yeah it is a big feature, but that doesn't mean Christians are obsessed with it. Again, they generally spend much more time celebrating his life over celebrating his actual death. Of course, they do often invoke the symbolism that is related to his death, but again, that is symbolism (ironically its symbolism for defeating death) not an obsession with his death.

Of course, there are plenty of people that didn't get the message. Mel Gibsons torture porn movie about the crucifixion is a good example of that. But you shouldn't be basing your view of a religion based on what the people that didn't get it in the first place think its about.

Never seen it, so I can't base my view on it. The whole religion is based on a made up view (mainly Paul who had his own agenda) of what Jesus was about. They worship a dead man. It doesn't make it better that everyone keeps pretending that he didn't actually die. I would think better of the religion if they did, because then it actually was a sacrifice rather than a David Blaine trick.

So are you telling me that they only drag the cross out once a year?

No, I'm saying that they only focus on the actual event of crucifixion one day a year.

They have cruifixes everywhere. Everyday. They pray over them. Lots of Catholics wear them. They have them in their houses. I'm sorry, I'm just not buying this argument that its not a symbol of death considering how many people died on crucifixes, Jesus wasn't by any means the only one.

3000 people. Not 3000 Christians. People with all sorts of faiths died that day, including innocent Muslims. So why the cross? Its not representative of all the people that died. Its just representative of the Christians that died.

You are complaining over the use of a very common symbol used to indicate a site where a lot of people died. Maps also tend to indicate graveyards with crosses even though Im sure that not everyone buried on that graveyard was Christian.

That says more about the map makers and their beliefs. Also, most graveyards do generally have one faith in them. The cross on maps originally symbolised churches, which on Europe usually had graveyards associated with them. Id be interested to know how they mark Native American burial sites on a map.

And really, this symbol isn't the only symbol or memorial thing that is dedicated to the victims of the 9/11 attacks, so even if you care about such a thing, there are other memorial signs dedicated to the victims in an even more secular manner. So why do you care if a bunch of people decided that this cross they found standing out in the wreckage was a good symbol for them and now they put it in a museum dedicated to 9/11?

Care? I don't really care what they put at 9/11. If they put a mosque, or a cross, or a statue of Satan I wouldn't care. What I do care about is the America obsession with Christianity being the default and correct religion. I think it is dangerous. A separation of Church and State was put in the constitution for a reason. Probably because they founding fathers still had strong enough ties to Europe to remember the destructive power the Church held there for so long. In the UK so much our our history is littered with wars over religion and power struggles between the state and the church. We have a very good understanding as to why it is so necessary for religion to be kept out of government if you want a free functioning democracy. The cross at ground zero is not strictly a religious symbol, it is a political one considering its location and the history of the site.

Why are you outraged over the use of a symbol of something you don't care about? Its a benign symbol placed at a location that isn't even inappropriate. Its not like they put this cross in front of a court or state legislature or some other secular government office.

Who says I'm outraged? Don't picture me as angry or outraged in this discussion. Picture me as rolling my eyes, tutting and shaking my head with bemusement. Then you have a more accurate idea of what I am feeling about this. I think putting a cross up and claiming it is not a symbol of Christianity is really daft and they must think we were born yesterday.

I have always thought it odd that the cult uses a method of torture for their symbol...and of course I don't expect them to use a vagina as their symbol. Even a stylised one like so many fertility cults used. The Church does not exactly have a good history when it comes to women.

They use the instrument of torture because that is where their lord and savior suffered and died for them, and through that experience set is first step towards ascension, opening up the way to heaven, forgave us all our sins and conquered death. They use an instrument of torture because it represents the sacrifice Jesus made for everyone. He suffered personally to achieve a greater goal for everyone else.

All the other stuff he did with his life (that is more likely to actually be real) and they pick that, Freud would have a field day.

No, I know enough about Christianity to be very aware of what the symbol really means and how it is used. However, your point is relevant to this discussion because if the cross is not a religious symbol in this situation, what exactly does it represent?

Western culture and Christianity are linked in so many ways. It is our heritage, as much as we try to secularize society, many of Christianity's symbols and their use have become part of our culture. Our culture uses the cross as a symbol usually to indicate a site where people either died or were buried (in this case both).

Christian culture does. Again, because graveyards are usually church land. American doesn't have the same history as Europe. One would hope they would have learned from it, but clearly they haven't.

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Reality Internet Personality

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Western culture and Christianity are linked in so many ways.

The entire world is linked to Christianity; this is the year of our lord 2014.

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I am not sure you are in a position to speak for most Christians. Most Christians on the planet are in fact Catholics. They spend a lot of time focusing on Jesus' death. Their rituals even include eating his body and drinking his blood.

I was raised Catholic, my parents are Catholics and I went to the Church fairly often when I was younger. No, they do not focus on his death or death in general. Most of the time they talk about the things Jesus did when he was still alive, the stories he told, or stories of things he did. Yeah sure, during communion they do the whole eat his body and drink his blood bit, but if you honestly think that is about his death you really have no clue what Catholicism is about.

I've spent a lot of time in Church schools (both as a student and as a teacher) to know that the manner of his death is a big feature.

Yeah it is a big feature, but that doesn't mean Christians are obsessed with it. Again, they generally spend much more time celebrating his life over celebrating his actual death. Of course, they do often invoke the symbolism that is related to his death, but again, that is symbolism (ironically its symbolism for defeating death) not an obsession with his death.

Of course, there are plenty of people that didn't get the message. Mel Gibsons torture porn movie about the crucifixion is a good example of that. But you shouldn't be basing your view of a religion based on what the people that didn't get it in the first place think its about.

So are you telling me that they only drag the cross out once a year?

No, I'm saying that they only focus on the actual event of crucifixion one day a year.

3000 people. Not 3000 Christians. People with all sorts of faiths died that day, including innocent Muslims. So why the cross? Its not representative of all the people that died. Its just representative of the Christians that died.

You are complaining over the use of a very common symbol used to indicate a site where a lot of people died. Maps also tend to indicate graveyards with crosses even though Im sure that not everyone buried on that graveyard was Christian.

And really, this symbol isn't the only symbol or memorial thing that is dedicated to the victims of the 9/11 attacks, so even if you care about such a thing, there are other memorial signs dedicated to the victims in an even more secular manner. So why do you care if a bunch of people decided that this cross they found standing out in the wreckage was a good symbol for them and now they put it in a museum dedicated to 9/11?

Why are you outraged over the use of a symbol of something you don't care about? Its a benign symbol placed at a location that isn't even inappropriate. Its not like they put this cross in front of a court or state legislature or some other secular government office.

I have always thought it odd that the cult uses a method of torture for their symbol...and of course I don't expect them to use a vagina as their symbol. Even a stylised one like so many fertility cults used. The Church does not exactly have a good history when it comes to women.

They use the instrument of torture because that is where their lord and savior suffered and died for them, and through that experience set is first step towards ascension, opening up the way to heaven, forgave us all our sins and conquered death. They use an instrument of torture because it represents the sacrifice Jesus made for everyone. He suffered personally to achieve a greater goal for everyone else.

No, I know enough about Christianity to be very aware of what the symbol really means and how it is used. However, your point is relevant to this discussion because if the cross is not a religious symbol in this situation, what exactly does it represent?

Western culture and Christianity are linked in so many ways. It is our heritage, as much as we try to secularize society, many of Christianity's symbols and their use have become part of our culture. Our culture uses the cross as a symbol usually to indicate a site where people either died or were buried (in this case both).

Does anyone really care about Anti Muslim, Christian, Judaism, Buddhist, etc., rants?

They didn't even care about my "blue waffle".

I'd get that seen to if I were you.

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Reality Internet Personality

Does anyone really care about Anti Muslim, Christian, Judaism, Buddhist, etc., rants?

They didn't even care about my "blue waffle".

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I don't think they had Brazilians back in Marys day. The 9/11 memorial vagina would obviously be au naturel.

LMAO, I cant even belive we have gotten to this point.

The Virgin Mary's color is blue so perhaps this could be placed in the museum.

Anyone with their own individual beliefs are ridiculed. Just look to these boards to see a sample of that.

Like using spelling errors as argumentum ad hominem?

Nope just a "Sarcastic" retort which in some cases does the job nicely.

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However, your point is relevant to this discussion because if the cross is not a religious symbol in this situation, what exactly does it represent?

The same as the ground zero stair case. This does not represent a stairway to heaven.
...

Jacobs ladder or Led Zepplin reference? I could live with the Led Zepplin reference.

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Reality Internet Personality

However, your point is relevant to this discussion because if the cross is not a religious symbol in this situation, what exactly does it represent?

The same as the ground zero stair case. This does not represent a stairway to heaven.

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I am acutely aware of what Christians believe, and the part of their belief that makes Jesus not just an interesting political leader with some interesting things to say, is the idea that he died and rose again. That is the bit that turns him into a god. The sacrifice of the one year king in spring is a very old ancient pagan belief and one they took on to make Jesus a powerful, magical figure.

If you take away his death and the manner of it, he is no longer a god. The most holy symbol of Christianity is the method by which he was tortured to death. Most branches of the church preach reward after death, not in this life. They are obsessed with what happens after death.

The Egyptians were obsessed with death, everything they did in life was to prepare for the afterlife. Most Christians spend much more time on what you do during life than what happens after you die. Sure, they promise a reward in the afterlife and they do talk about it, but to call them obsessed by it is absurd.

I am not sure you are in a position to speak for most Christians. Most Christians on the planet are in fact Catholics. They spend a lot of time focusing on Jesus' death. Their rituals even include eating his body and drinking his blood.

And again, the focus of the crucifixion story does not lie with all the gory details of Jesus's death or the actual manner of his death. The real focus lies on the meaning of his actions, namely his sacrifice for everyone else, and then that he rises from the after 3 days and a little later, his transcendence.

I've spent a lot of time in Church schools (both as a student and as a teacher) to know that the manner of his death is a big feature.

In the end, the fact is that Christians celebrate the crucifixion in just one day while they spend the rest of the year celebrating either his birth, his rise from the grave, his transcendence or all the other things he supposedly did or said while he was still alive. I can hardly call that obsessed with death.

So are you telling me that they only drag the cross out once a year?

If they celebrate his birth as much as his death why is there a cross at ground zero and not a big vagina?

Because Ground Zero is a site where 3000 people lost their lives. You do not celebrate life at a place like that, just like you wouldn't do that on a graveyard.

3000 people. Not 3000 Christians. People with all sorts of faiths died that day, including innocent Muslims. So why the cross? Its not representative of all the people that died. Its just representative of the Christians that died.

The better question would be why Christians have used the cross as their symbol if they want to celebrate life over death. Well no one will deny that Jesus sacrificing himself to conquer sin and death isn't an important part of Christian mythology. And, by being nailed on the cross he became a martyr, so that is why everyone associated the cross with Christians. Besides, do you think that 2nd century patriarchal society would be comfortable with one of their biggest symbols being a vagina?

I have always thought it odd that the cult uses a method of torture for their symbol...and of course I don't expect them to use a vagina as their symbol. Even a stylised one like so many fertility cults used. The Church does not exactly have a good history when it comes to women.

Honestly though, you are taking symbols, strip them of their symbolism and then accuse the people who use those symbols of having certain believes because of symbols ripped out of their context.

No, I know enough about Christianity to be very aware of what the symbol really means and how it is used. However, your point is relevant to this discussion because if the cross is not a religious symbol in this situation, what exactly does it represent?

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Reality Internet Personality

I don't think they had Brazilians back in Marys day. The 9/11 memorial vagina would obviously be au naturel.

LMAO, I cant even belive we have gotten to this point.

The Virgin Mary's color is blue so perhaps this could be placed in the museum.

Anyone with their own individual beliefs are ridiculed. Just look to these boards to see a sample of that.

Like using spelling errors as argumentum ad hominem?

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