Collatz just joined CreditScrew.

Collatz just joined CreditScrew.

News Posted @ Collatz 1/4/14 (or 4/1/14 for North Americans) April Fools Day.

The majority of BOINC projects are using CreditNew and includes all the largest projects. After much deliberation and more than a few run-ins with the credit cops, Collatz will switch to the CreditNew system beginning tomorrow.

I expect both the GPU and CPU credits will be drastically reduced because of this change but it will result in cross project parity at a level never before seen in BOINC. Since the basis of CreditNew is that credit is based on hardware across projects and not how well the hardware works on any one project, some changes to the applications will also be required. Not all projects have 64-bit applications or can make use of 64-bit math. As a result, a user running 32-bit windows on his 64-bit processor today only gets half as much credit because he only works half as fast as the user with a 64-bit operating system. That just isn't fair. The user doing half the work should get the same amount of credit because he has the same CPU. So, I will be removing all 64-bit Collatz applications. In addition, all assembly language and intrinsic optimizations will also be removed so that the applications run at a level that compares with the BOINC benchmarks since the benchmarks do not take into account any of those optimizations.

GPU optimizations will also be removed and all applications will be downgraded where ever possible to the oldest possible version. For example, CUDA 1.0 will now be the standard so that the project does not take advantage of any features not supported by the oldest nVidia GPU as it wouldn't be fair to the person who spend hundreds of dollars on a new GPU to get more credits just because his hardware works faster at certain calculations. The new Collatz GPU applications will only be allowed to run a few times faster than the CPU applications. That will allow Collatz to achieve parity with projects which have GPU applications that can't run in parallel very well. In order to assure that the oldest software will be used, all applications will be migrated to COBOL and entered via punch cards.

If your CPU or GPU is currently overclocked, you can dial it back since it will no longer matter. It has been said that credits are not worth anything. I think the contrary is true. Credits cost money. You hardware will now last longer because of this change and the result is that it will save you money. If you stop crunching altogether, just think how much money you will have!

Sure, some will see the lower credits at Collatz as a bad thing. But, think of it this way... While the credit will go down in Collatz, it really won't matter since all the Collatz applications will run at a level not seen since Apple IIe and DEC PDP-11s. You won't have to worry that your computer is getting less credits while using the same amount of electricity because even if you switch to another project, your credits and electric bill will remain constant. You will get less credit but the CEO's of the power companies will still get their bonuses thanks to your contributions.

Finally, because new volunteers who join the project won't ever be able to catch up to the credit leaders due to the switch to using CreditNew, the total credits will also be adjusted for all users, hosts, and teams. You will see an 80% reduction. But, on the bright side, you will be able to achieve those mega milestones tracked at FreeDC all over again!

Cheers.

I was asked to be diplomatic about this.

First of all I tend to agree with James. Prof. Bale in all likelyhood knows nothing about BOINC and credit. He should know something like SETI@home exists within the premises, but that probably is about it. So on receipt of that letter he probably will say 'WTH?' and pass it on to Eric and David, since they were mentioned. If we are very lucky he'll just bin it as incomprehensible.

If we are less lucky Eric and David get it and read it.

Now put yourselves into their shoes. Something you should always do when writing such letters. Always look at the thing from the other persons POV. Always look at how you would feel when you get such a letter. And then think again if you found a good way not only to make your point, but more crucially to make the other person do what you would like him or her to do. Somebody who ends up antagonised is very unlikely to respond in the way you want. It's not only what you say it is how you say it. I've been trying to teach that lesson for some time now. The only effect so far has been for me to be promoted to spokesperson...

So, Eric first. Eric has stated several times, that he does not like the low credit and the credit imbalance either. And it is not his fault. It is a systemic design problem of the way CreditNew was coded.

You are right, Lionel, the only way to deal with this is to recode CreditNew.

Now, Eric doesn't want the low credit, but there's nothing he can do about it. There are workarounds but they are clutches at best. Plus, the BOINC side of the project is David's domain and Eric has very little say in that.
So, Eric might feel you (and you made your letter sound as if you were speaking for a lot of people) blame him for something that is not his fault and that he would love to change.
How does somebody react if you blame them for something that is not their fault and that they would like to change? Right, there you go. One person antagonised. If you are lucky just annoyed. But certainly not in the mood to move mountains to change things.

David? This is a bit tricky.
David is not a bad person. David is a person out of their depth with a piece of code which has a complexity that has long since exceeded easy understanding of the whole picture. Like an artist that has a whole mural to do and doesn't see that the piece in front of him is connected to the other side of the room.
David knows about volunteer retention problems. David has been told various times about credit. It's just that David is no engineer. He cannot understand that the way he coded CreditNew just has to have the outcome we see. That the drop is inherently built into the design. It's probably not, as we often tend to think, that he does no believe that credit is screwed. It is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of hard data and showing the problems in the code and how that way of coding has the effects we see. I tend to believe that he genuinely does not understand why that code grants credit far below the cobblestone scale. Why that code HAS to grant below the cobblestone scale as soon as SIMD apps are involved.
So David has no clear understanding of the problem. It is not a matter of belief. It is the moment you step back from the tapestry and realise you've been using the wrong type of blue for that past two square metres.
So what do you do? The sensible thing is to unravel and redo.
The human thing is to say sod it and carry on.

So how will he react to such a letter? Positively? Really???

Now, Lionel, you may not be aware of that, but a few of us have been trying to correct this matter for some time now, though it is slow going, due to various contraints on our collective time.
We did walk the code. There are now two people on this planet who know exactly how the CreditNew code works. There may be a couple more that walked the code and didn't say 'sod it' and understood. But they have kept silently to themselves, if they exist.

I approached Eric and Bernd Machenschalk from Einstein with our conclusions. I approached a few more projects, trying to figure out if they use CreditNew at all (many don't for various reasons) and if they would be willing to partake in a beta testing of 'NewCreditNew'. Jason did show the graphs in some other thread here. When Einstein have finished their infrastructre overhaul, they have agreed to test on their beta server. So we are making progress.
In the end we hope to have code that can be used by boinc as is. Code David can trust. Code David will use.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get David to change course?
It can be done, with a lot of patience and goodwill and diplomacy.
[he doesn't like sarcasm, btw]

When an opportunity presented itself I even approached David and told him we were doing this. The response I got can only be classed as mixed. But it was not at that point a complete rebuff. It looked like he could be persuaded to be openminded about the issue and look at what we have (or rather will have).
You have no idea how big a step forward that was.

And now, dear Lionel, you come and drop that bombshell into our laps.
You may have endangered the whole operation that was almost silently working towards a resolution.
David may end up so antagonised, that he'll put up all the barriers people have when they feel attacked. And then we are going to have one hell of a job to get our code in.
It was never going to be an easy thing. I was never sure I could pull this off. And when I say I, I mean I. Jason does the code, Richard does consultancy and proofreading but I am the spokesperson. I write the letters. It is my job to phrase what I write such in a way so the person reading it will NOT put up barriers. It is my eloquence and diplomacy and frankness and bluntness and occasional rudeness that has so far managed to get things done as far as they have.
So, I was never sure I would be able to pull this off and get David to accept the rewritten code. I just hoped I could. Because I am fairly sure there will only be one shot at this. If we fail, nobody else will ever do it again. Not the least because the combined skillset is so rare.
People always like to complain. Very few people do the next step and do something about it that REALLY helps.
And what really helps is to code. Nothing else. David cannot be expected to rewrite that code. He doesn't understand what's wrong with it. You just have to go and do it and hope that he accepts it.

So as I mentioned at the beginning, I hope that Prof. Bale chucks the letter into the bin. Or that David has a brief moment of annoyance before he chucks it in the bin. Anything but a reaction that endangers our operation.
It is a long way to go still. It would be nice if nobody was throwing spanners into the works.

Or as somebody else likes to put it 'Patience, grasshopper'.

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A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. (Mark Twain)

ROFL :)))
Nice joke from Collatz. With polite outlining all issues CreditScrew has indeed :DDDD

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

That could only be a big joke from Collantz. If no they are doomed!

If creditscrew cant even balance MB vs Ap now imagine with a compleately diferent app´s like Collants who not even need a wingman to validate, sure a compleate mess. If not a joke sorry tpl you will not see me helping you at Collantz anymore.

@williams We all belive in your team work, and waiting for your actions, hopping sometime this mess ends.

On other hand the "parachute test" shows clearely creditscrew is not working, even Dr. A. could say now it´s right, the test totaly proves the point MB receive 1/3 of the credit of AP aproximately at least on the test host.

So i´m sure he as a scientist with the test data clearely see: creditscrew not work as promised. Now if he will accept the fixes is with you and your team.

I agree with you, it´s not the time to deploy the nukes, let´s continue with the gorila war for some time.

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I have decided to add my opinion to this thread. For what little weight that has.

I was outraged when I read the original post here. The arrogance involved for one to believe that they speak for everyone here is incredible.

Then to go over David Anderson's and Eric's head with the complaint?

How would you feel if someone verbally attacked your first born son? Same thing here. You cannot expect a sudden willingness for them to take up your cause.

We would be well advised to remember..... Boinc is the only part of this project with funding. SETI is here to provide a test bed for Boinc where every aspect of SETI is extreme. Data base size, network traffic, everything is at extreme limits that no other project could provide. Is SETI worth the headache to Boinc? Some I dare say would argue that SETI is expendable. But I digress.....

Let's hope the harm done with the original post is fleeting and that David Anderson, Eric and all the rest if the program scientists can put it behind them and work to improve Boinc.

Don

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Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....

This thread reminds me of mine of a few years ago entitled "Boinc's Death Knell?".

I placed it in "Politics" as it was too hot a subject matter for both NC & Café. I was castigated there for "attacking" D.A when no such thing was mentioned. The attack was upon boinc itself.

What was mentioned by myself was the fact that boinc was D.A's pet project & like all human beings that provides something for the rest of us to enjoy, keep it close to their chest.

I did state that boinc had got bigger than one person to handle & I still believe that. However, D.A has to be congratulated for what he has done. Being a scientist though, he must realise that there comes a time when "the 1st born" grows up. That time is now.

As for the OP, just two words......

Unbelievable Arrogance

He certainly does not speak for me!

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ROFL :)))
Nice joke from Collatz. With polite outlining all issues CreditScrew has indeed :DDDD

Yes, April does tend to identify the fools...

...it really won't matter since all the Collatz applications will run at a level not seen since Apple IIe and DEC PDP-11s. You won't have to worry that your computer is getting less credits while using the same amount of electricity because even if you switch to another project, your credits and electric bill will remain constant. You will get less credit but the CEO's of the power companies will still get their bonuses thanks to your contributions.

ROFLMAO!

Interesting comments by Jason and Eric about credit in the News forum today if you haven't seen:

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=73935&postid=1498621 and the precediing message.

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Another Fred
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Well said William ! :)
In the words of Jean de la Fontaine : "Patience and time do more than force and rage" ("Patience et longueur de temps font plus que force ni que rage").

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LoL, терпенье и труд все перетрут; вода камень точит... The single issue with such approach - limited lifespan :/ no other objections ;)

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

Excellent post William.

LoL, терпенье и труд все перетрут; вода камень точит... The single issue with such approach - limited lifespan :/ no other objections ;)

A watched pot never boils ;)

LoL, терпенье и труд все перетрут; вода камень точит... The single issue with such approach - limited lifespan :/ no other objections ;)

A watched pot never boils ;)

:DDD

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.