Not really a scientific study this, more an anecdotal personal story.

enough said right there..and you had the nerve to present it HERE?

What is your problem man??

My problem? LOL that I refuse to take your word for it and hold you to some standard of proof rather than sitting around the campfire with you singing Kumbaya.
The whole internet is feelings..nothing more than feelings..HERE we have a concentration of people who think clearly for a living and I'm making a stand.

Standpoint taken, but everyone here is open to hear that standpoint, if it's brought in a correct manner imo

Well then. Address all my points instead of the ones you want to. Civility falls off when people debate like grammar school children.
When I make the same point 2 or 3 times and it's consistently ignored in favor of repeating what you already posted, I do tend to get irritated. call it a character flaw.

I haven't addressed any point to you yet, but I'm open to have a civilized conversation with you. We all have character flaws, we learn to live with it, as we do with Mother Earth.

then what are you complaining about?

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If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Not really a scientific study this, more an anecdotal personal story.

enough said right there..and you had the nerve to present it HERE?

What is your problem man??

My problem? LOL that I refuse to take your word for it and hold you to some standard of proof rather than sitting around the campfire with you singing Kumbaya.
The whole internet is feelings..nothing more than feelings..HERE we have a concentration of people who think clearly for a living and I'm making a stand.

Standpoint taken, but everyone here is open to hear that standpoint, if it's brought in a correct manner imo

Well then. Address all my points instead of the ones you want to. Civility falls off when people debate like grammar school children.
When I make the same point 2 or 3 times and it's consistently ignored in favor of repeating what you already posted, I do tend to get irritated. call it a character flaw.

I haven't addressed any point to you yet, but I'm open to have a civilized conversation with you. We all have character flaws, we learn to live with it, as we do with Mother Earth.

then what are you complaining about?

Was I complaining? ;)

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Not really a scientific study this, more an anecdotal personal story.

enough said right there..and you had the nerve to present it HERE?

What is your problem man??

My problem? LOL that I refuse to take your word for it and hold you to some standard of proof rather than sitting around the campfire with you singing Kumbaya.
The whole internet is feelings..nothing more than feelings..HERE we have a concentration of people who think clearly for a living and I'm making a stand.

Standpoint taken, but everyone here is open to hear that standpoint, if it's brought in a correct manner imo

I like the contributions from real life experiences of people like the Simonator and Julie (who does in fact make a living from the subject at hand if I'm not mistaken) just as much as I do from our critical thinkers like yourself Peeper of Castle Anthrax :). We are after all a planet of individuals. The Simonator has shown that when cutting out the middle man, solar panels can work. It highlights one of the stumbling blocks to green energy switchover very well. Julie is seeing savings for her customers in a country not renowned for it's all year round sunshine. If we just concentrate on reading scientic paper after scientific paper (given the number out there that may be a tad dubious) we're not always going to get a well-rounded view. Just as valid are economic concerns raised by people like Clyde and others about the impact on people's livelihoods that could come through mismanaged policies. But I do understand your frustration with the internet... it's definitely not what it used to be :/ but it's the narcissisism that gets up my nose the most.

Do hope everyone's having a nice day here though :)

Not really a scientific study this, more an anecdotal personal story.

enough said right there..and you had the nerve to present it HERE?

What is your problem man??

My problem? LOL that I refuse to take your word for it and hold you to some standard of proof rather than sitting around the campfire with you singing Kumbaya.
The whole internet is feelings..nothing more than feelings..HERE we have a concentration of people who think clearly for a living and I'm making a stand.

Standpoint taken, but everyone here is open to hear that standpoint, if it's brought in a correct manner imo

I like the contributions from real life experiences of people like the Simonator and Julie (who does in fact make a living from the subject at hand if I'm not mistaken) just as much as I do from our critical thinkers like yourself Peeper of Castle Anthrax :). We are after all a planet of individuals. The Simonator has shown that when cutting out the middle man, solar panels can work. It highlights one of the stumbling blocks to green energy switchover very well. Julie is seeing savings for her customers in a country not renowned for it's all year round sunshine. If we just concentrate on reading scientic paper after scientific paper (given the number out there that may be a tad dubious) we're not always going to get a well-rounded view. Just as valid are economic concerns raised by people like Clyde and others about the impact on people's livelihoods that could come through mismanaged policies. But I do understand your frustration with the internet... it's definitely not what it used to be :/ but it's the narcissisism that gets up my nose the most.

Do hope everyone's having a nice day here though :)

:)

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May I make a quick point before we move on (if we do :))

Major Kong, you said:

You left out another entire class of subsidies. One where the government PAYS farmers to NOT grow their crops (or at least scale back and leave a certain amount of their land fallow). This directly leads to higher food prices.

Some of the subsidy to farmers in the uk has gone to encouraging farmers to return some of their land back to nature, and replacing hedgerows between fields etc. It's actually a very sound environmental policy as it provides oasis' for our natural fauna and flora, and has helped put the brakes on a disturbing decline in butterflies, bees and small insectivores which are in fact helpful to crop yield. It's also encouraged the retutn of smaller birds of prey. Whether that's enough remains an open question. The weird thing about britain's pollinating insects is that they may be doing better in our towns and cities because they have a greater variety of flowering plants available to them which might be providing them with better disease resistance.

I hope it's actually working that way for you. In the USA it's turned into massive gentleman farmer estates with millions of fallow acres.. usually land it wouldn't profit anybody to try and farm.

Well it wouldn't surprise me if it happened here too - but we have the Royal family for that - so competition is naturally built into our system (hollow laugh)

Was I complaining? ;)

LOL maybe it didn't translate well.

I've been pondering these problems for decades longer than they've been popular. Climate Change may have only reared it's ugly head in the last 20 years but the population growth/resource limits cliff has been in front of us forever.
Technology is unlikely to keep winning that contest.
Well Meaning Fools promoting expensive plans that won't help anything become tools in the hands of the corporate interests that are doing this to us.
They obfuscate the real core problems and inhibit any productive action.

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If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

again, unlike you, i actually READ some of it. they're not 'studies' they're polls and opinion pieces.
you sure do need to ignore a whole lot of what other people say to keep this up.

Well you clearly didn´t read the last document I posted as its nothing like a poll or opinion piece. Its business analysts keeping track of the amount of money that gets invested in sustainable energy. That can simply be done by monitoring businesses, no opinions or polls get involved.

And I asked a bunch of time to post evidence for your claims, which you consistently fail to do. You complain that you have to take someones word for it? You are not any better unless you start posting some proof. Just saying that the only reason people buy solar panels is because of government subsidies and them forcing to buy electricity from you at inflated prices is just your word unless you get me proof.

Do hope everyone's having a nice day here though :)

The fundamental and most important point is, as Dr. Tyson has said, is: you don't get to have an 'opinion' on established scientific facts'

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If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

again, unlike you, i actually READ some of it. they're not 'studies' they're polls and opinion pieces.
you sure do need to ignore a whole lot of what other people say to keep this up.

Well you clearly didn´t read the last document I posted as its nothing like a poll or opinion piece. Its business analysts keeping track of the amount of money that gets invested in sustainable energy. That can simply be done by monitoring businesses, no opinions or polls get involved.

And I asked a bunch of time to post evidence for your claims, which you consistently fail to do. You complain that you have to take someones word for it? You are not any better unless you start posting some proof. Just saying that the only reason people buy solar panels is because of government subsidies and them forcing to buy electricity from you at inflated prices is just your word unless you get me proof.

Please come back again after you're willing to actually read the threads and my posts and parse them and respond to the difficult points instead of what you feel comfortable with.
I'm not going to play 'spot the fallacy' with you anymore.
NOR am I going to let you play 'make the person questioning my claims prove it rather than I'

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

you don't get to have an 'opinion' on established scientific facts'

There I tend to disagree with Dr. Tyson, having your own opinion doesn't mean the whole world has to know about it, you have your own opinion, no matter what the world thinks...

[edit] but be gentle to people who are gentle to you leaving Politics...

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you don't get to have an 'opinion' on established scientific facts'

There I tend to disagree with Dr. Tyson, having your own opinion doesn't mean the whole world has to know about it, you have your own opinion, no matter what the world thinks...

[edit] but be gentle to people who are gentle to you leaving Politics...

Unfortunately, the laws of Physics believe in you whether you agree or not.
I wouldn't try too hard to come up with an opposing opinion on gravity if I were you.
You're basically promoting psychosis with that statement.

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If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Please come back again after you're willing to actually read the threads and my posts and parse them and respond to the difficult points instead of what you feel comfortable with.
I'm not going to play 'spot the fallacy' with you anymore.
NOR am I going to let you play 'make the person questioning my claims prove it rather than I'

Ohh the hypocrisy. Fair enough, I know where you stand.

Please come back again after you're willing to actually read the threads and my posts and parse them and respond to the difficult points instead of what you feel comfortable with.
I'm not going to play 'spot the fallacy' with you anymore.
NOR am I going to let you play 'make the person questioning my claims prove it rather than I'

Ohh the hypocrisy. Fair enough, I know where you stand.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntellectualDishonesty

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

you don't get to have an 'opinion' on established scientific facts'

There I tend to disagree with Dr. Tyson, having your own opinion doesn't mean the whole world has to know about it, you have your own opinion, no matter what the world thinks...

[edit] but be gentle to people who are gentle to you leaving Politics...

Unfortunately, the laws of Physics believe in you whether you agree or not.
I wouldn't try too hard to come up with an opposing opinion on gravity if I were you.
You're basically promoting psychosis with that statement.

Oh my, psychosis? Now really? Now we're really getting off topic of this thread. You say I have an opposing opinion? OK then, I would love you to clarify that opinion but I'm just too tired now as a matter of fact.

---

Music
Pictures

you don't get to have an 'opinion' on established scientific facts'

There I tend to disagree with Dr. Tyson, having your own opinion doesn't mean the whole world has to know about it, you have your own opinion, no matter what the world thinks...

[edit] but be gentle to people who are gentle to you leaving Politics...

Unfortunately, the laws of Physics believe in you whether you agree or not.
I wouldn't try too hard to come up with an opposing opinion on gravity if I were you.
You're basically promoting psychosis with that statement.

Oh my, psychosis? Now really? Now we're really getting off topic of this thread. You say I have an opposing opinion? OK then, I would love you to clarify that opinion but I'm just too tired now as a matter of fact.

believing what you prefer to be true instead of what can be proven would pretty much fill the basic definition of 'psychosis' yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

you don't get to have an 'opinion' on established scientific facts'

There I tend to disagree with Dr. Tyson, having your own opinion doesn't mean the whole world has to know about it, you have your own opinion, no matter what the world thinks...

[edit] but be gentle to people who are gentle to you leaving Politics...

Unfortunately, the laws of Physics believe in you whether you agree or not.
I wouldn't try too hard to come up with an opposing opinion on gravity if I were you.
You're basically promoting psychosis with that statement.

Oh my, psychosis? Now really? Now we're really getting off topic of this thread. You say I have an opposing opinion? OK then, I would love you to clarify that opinion but I'm just too tired now as a matter of fact.

believing what you prefer to be true instead of what can be proven would pretty much fill the basic definition of 'psychosis' yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

I've seen people with 'psychosis' Catatonical at some point. Don't give me that link. If I would like some further information on psychosis I'll look it up myself.

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Music
Pictures

Please come back again after you're willing to actually read the threads and my posts and parse them and respond to the difficult points instead of what you feel comfortable with.
I'm not going to play 'spot the fallacy' with you anymore.
NOR am I going to let you play 'make the person questioning my claims prove it rather than I'

Ohh the hypocrisy. Fair enough, I know where you stand.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntellectualDishonesty

Seriously? You realize that you cannot accuse me of intellectual dishonesty without proof that I hold you to a higher standard than myself or viewpoints that I like. So, show it.

Oh right, I forgot, you don't do proof. I just have to take your word for it then...


EDIT: you realize that the difference between wanting to believe that whatever you like is true and psychosis is that the latter is entirely involuntary. Its not that people want to believe that whatever hallucinations they see are real, their brains actually think that what they see is real.

you don't get to have an 'opinion' on established scientific facts'

There I tend to disagree with Dr. Tyson, having your own opinion doesn't mean the whole world has to know about it, you have your own opinion, no matter what the world thinks...

[edit] but be gentle to people who are gentle to you leaving Politics...

Unfortunately, the laws of Physics believe in you whether you agree or not.
I wouldn't try too hard to come up with an opposing opinion on gravity if I were you.
You're basically promoting psychosis with that statement.

Oh my, psychosis? Now really? Now we're really getting off topic of this thread. You say I have an opposing opinion? OK then, I would love you to clarify that opinion but I'm just too tired now as a matter of fact.

believing what you prefer to be true instead of what can be proven would pretty much fill the basic definition of 'psychosis' yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosis

I've seen people with 'psychosis' Catatonical at some point. Don't give me that link. If I would like some further information on psychosis I'll look it up myself.

''don't confuse my feelings with definitions and facts'' right. LOL

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Please come back again after you're willing to actually read the threads and my posts and parse them and respond to the difficult points instead of what you feel comfortable with.
I'm not going to play 'spot the fallacy' with you anymore.
NOR am I going to let you play 'make the person questioning my claims prove it rather than I'

Ohh the hypocrisy. Fair enough, I know where you stand.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntellectualDishonesty

Seriously? You realize that you cannot accuse me of intellectual dishonesty without proof that I hold you to a higher standard than myself or viewpoints that I like. So, show it.

Oh right, I forgot, you don't do proof. I just have to take your word for it then...


EDIT: you realize that the difference between wanting to believe that whatever you like is true and psychosis is that the latter is entirely involuntary. Its not that people want to believe that whatever hallucinations they see are real, their brains actually think that what they see is real.

U Mad? because I can't help but notice you reply to everything except the main points I keep asking you to address.

---

If you don't touch it, you can't break it.
;

Please come back again after you're willing to actually read the threads and my posts and parse them and respond to the difficult points instead of what you feel comfortable with.
I'm not going to play 'spot the fallacy' with you anymore.
NOR am I going to let you play 'make the person questioning my claims prove it rather than I'

Ohh the hypocrisy. Fair enough, I know where you stand.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?IntellectualDishonesty

Seriously? You realize that you cannot accuse me of intellectual dishonesty without proof that I hold you to a higher standard than myself or viewpoints that I like. So, show it.

Oh right, I forgot, you don't do proof. I just have to take your word for it then...


EDIT: you realize that the difference between wanting to believe that whatever you like is true and psychosis is that the latter is entirely involuntary. Its not that people want to believe that whatever hallucinations they see are real, their brains actually think that what they see is real.

U Mad? because I can't help but notice you reply to everything except the main points I keep asking you to address.

Have you tried fewer insults? :) They can be very distracting. :)