So to close the debate regarding the Nazi's you agree that religion was only an excuse as their actions were rational.

No, biological racism was the basis of this. But religion can be used as an excuse to dehumanize other people.

My point with the Nazis was that pure rationality does not prevent massacres.

So you agree that religion is an irrational concept.

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http://cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/poll-americans-belief-god-strong-declining

Poll: Americans' Belief in God Is Strong--But Declining

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That assumes that a group of people is subhuman is a flawed premise (to be sure, I agree here, now I'm just playing the devils advocate). But can you rationally say that? Or is that just what your culture and your upbringing have taught you?

No, science and biology has taught me that.

The point here is, that even though we consider dehumanizing a group of humans as a flawed premise, for the Nazi's this logic clearly made sense. If you would ask them, they would no consider it to be a flawed premise. The operated under the idea that it was in fact the correct premise, and from there adjusted their policy in a cold, bureaucratic-rationalist way.

Sure it made sense to them. Lots of things make sense to people that are clearly irrational. You think god makes sense. The nazi's think hatred of Jews makes sense. Doesn't mean they are right.

Aside from that, so far both of you have demonstrated a remarkable ability to let personal moral and ethical convictions stand in the way of pure rational calculation. Good, but all this shows that pure rational behavior is just one flawed premise away from turning into the mass murder of 6 million people.

Wow, that's an unjustified leap worthy of Sarah Palin. LMAO.

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Reality Internet Personality

...

This thread is obviously a response to my "why is teaching atheism good?" ...

Ego much?

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Reality Internet Personality

If these issues could be resolved to everyone here's satisfaction we would be well on the way to solving the world's biggest social problems. But it is more likely that none of us will ever convince anyone with differing beliefs on these matters to change their minds. I think the observed data about the number of people who claim to have some form of religious beliefs supports the notion that many, if not most, people need religion in their lives. Just don't try to force your beliefs on me or anyone else who chooses not to agree with you.

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Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/susan-jones/poll-americans-belief-god-strong-declining

Poll: Americans' Belief in God Is Strong--But Declining

If you check Census records available in most countries you'll find that religious belief has been on the decline world wide since the 1980's and those attending religious services even more so.

OTOH those without religious beliefs have been steadily on the increase world wide and this is expected to increase as more of the world's population becomes "connected".

P.S. No links required as a simple Google search will reveal all. ;-)

Cheers.

No, science and biology has taught me that.

Biology teaches you that people are biologically equal. There are other ways to define subhumans.

Aside from that, the Nazis are from an era where biological racism was still possible. For that time, it wasn't exactly weird to state that some groups of people were better than others for biological reasons, even for scientists that wasn't exactly uncommon. This is also very much hindsight talking.

Sure it made sense to them. Lots of things make sense to people that are clearly irrational. You think god makes sense. The nazi's think hatred of Jews makes sense. Doesn't mean they are right.

Again, you have to judge history and decisions that made history in the light of its time. Its easy to judge with hindsight, but it also does not get you any kind of understanding into why things happened, and it blinds you and prevents you from making the same mistake people made back then.

Wow, that's an unjustified leap worthy of Sarah Palin. LMAO.

Well clearly the holocaust wouldn't have happened had the Nazi's thought that Jews were humans and human life is sacred. In their whole logic of the holocaust, those are the only things that are in hindsight flawed premises. And do you really think you have no flawed premises in your reasoning when it comes to human rights? I'm sure you're convinced your logic is perfectly fine, but I can assure you that in a 100 years, we will look completely different at those things. No premise that is not a brute fact remains accepted forever. A 100 years ago, racism was the norm, now its not. Who knows what the norm is in 2113?

Besides, how many deaths doesn't the west have on its conscience, people who died all in the name of liberty and human rights? Given our haphazard approach to them, who is to say that we are not basing on policies on flawed premises as well?

Are you stating that racism is not the norm in 2013? While it might be a lot less than 100 years ago, Racism is still very much alive and well in 2013.

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[/quote]

Old James

This is the state of religious support in the UK. British Humanist Association - Religion and belief: some surveys and statistics

and for the US from the Pew Research Center What surveys say about worship attendance – and why some stay home

and “Nones” on the Rise

Are you stating that racism is not the norm in 2013? While it might be a lot less than 100 years ago, Racism is still very much alive and well in 2013.

No, no, I mean that generally speaking people consider racism to be a bad thing these days. Only in certain circles is it okay to be a racist, but tell an average person that you think the KKK got it right and you'll be looked at with distaste. And in science, racism is considered to be irrational as there are no real reasons for being racist. But back in the 1930's? Science back then supposedly showed that white people were superior to Africans or Asians.

but tell an average person that you think the KKK got it right and you'll be looked at with distaste

Then why is the KKK still tolerated in the USA?

KKK

KKK1

And their support there has dropped significantly. Geez, is it so hard to comprehend when someone says that racism today is significantly less then in the 1930's?

America today in my opinion, is in large areas, mainly middle and south middle, just as racist as it was pre WWII. But of course they deny it.

I agree. Racists have learned that they can't just walk up to a person of a difference race or religion and yell an slur at them anymore. They do however do so in much more subtle and less obvious ways. Texas is chuck full of quiet bigots

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

I second that motion.

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Not quite everyone - I was on the phone earlier today to a former colleague who is a Muslim, he called me for two reasons, one was work, and the other to wish me a Happy Christmas.

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Bob Smith
Member of Seti PIPPS (Pluto is a Planet Protest Society)
Somewhere in the (un)known Universe?

Why should these minority religions have such thin skins, and the most popular religion has to kowtow to them? It's about time we banned religion altogether, it causes more trouble than it's worth.

...and I bet many Muslims will be saying this too in years to come. It would not
surprise me if a few of them already think this way and only follow it's tenants
else bring shame upon their families. Where Christianity is today the Muslim
faith will surely be there tomorrow, it's just a matter of time.

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

but tell an average person that you think the KKK got it right and you'll be looked at with distaste

Then why is the KKK still tolerated in the USA?

KKK

KKK1

Not tolerated by me or anyone I know

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Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

but tell an average person that you think the KKK got it right and you'll be looked at with distaste

Then why is the KKK still tolerated in the USA?

KKK

KKK1

Not tolerated by me or anyone I know

Nor by me or my family.

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[/quote]

Old James

but tell an average person that you think the KKK got it right and you'll be looked at with distaste

Then why is the KKK still tolerated in the USA?

KKK

KKK1

Not tolerated by me or anyone I know

Nor by me or my family.

+10

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