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ChinookFoehn

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Message 54307 - Posted: 15 Dec 2004, 22:52:57 UTC - in response to Message 54304.  
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 9:46:19 UTC

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Message 54308 - Posted: 15 Dec 2004, 22:57:23 UTC - in response to Message 54306.  
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Message 54309 - Posted: 15 Dec 2004, 22:58:33 UTC - in response to Message 54308.  
Last modified: 15 Dec 2004, 23:03:24 UTC

> > OK, but how does that apply to his position that the purpose of religion
> is to enslave the mind?...
>
> It doesn't. I did write it was slightly off topic as I thought it would
> be an interesting fact to bring up.
>
> As you already know (assuming my previous post on the subject was
> read)
, my definition of the original concept of religion was to control
> the masses by the élite of society. This no longer functions well in a modern,
> western-style, society.

Then, we are in agreement . . . how dull.

[Edit]: Maybe I am comparing this to the rush of emotions (anger, frustration, etc.) from the dark times when WordWhiner was here. I'll take dull over that experience.
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Message 54313 - Posted: 15 Dec 2004, 23:09:38 UTC - in response to Message 54309.  
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Message 54359 - Posted: 16 Dec 2004, 1:50:09 UTC

Voltaire said, "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him." I don't think he was just being glib in an attempt to be quoted for the next few centuries; I think that Voltaire might have been on to something.

The crass view would be to look at organized religions, like the Catholic church, and assume that the power and wealth they have accumulated are what Voltaire was talking about. And while that may have some validity, I think that what he meant was that religion could be a source of social order.

I have found that, regarding the way people conform to social order, there are three types of people: there are those who will do what is right (ethical, moral) just for the sake of it being the right thing to do; there are those who will do what's right because of fear of punishment from some enforceing power; and there are those who will do what they know is wrong, despite the threat of punishment. It is for the last two groups that laws are written. The source (the foundation) of laws in all societies is religion, i.e. a value system to define what is right or wrong.

To me, whether or not you believe in God, this function of religion has some worth. To take it a step further, at a time when governments were closely related to a religion, theology could easily bolster the aim of social keeping order by building in some divine system of reward and punishment. The aim of this would be to take up the slack where government failed to find and punish lawbreakers (the law's foudation in religion would be symbiotic). But the system would work best when people actually believe in the deity that would meet out the punishment and rewards for behavior.
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Message 54376 - Posted: 16 Dec 2004, 3:02:54 UTC

To get this thread back til religion:

Why is it so that religion is considered by many people to be something to control the masses with, that if people believe in some higher power, then those in power could do, what they want and get away with it, because there is only the deity to blame. That people are like stupid animals just as Karl Marx said it "Religion is opium for the people", just dope them and they will put up with anything!

Religion or belief can, in my view, be something very personal, and can very well exists beside a politically awareness, and a social indignation on behalf of the lesser well of (not only moneywise).

For myself, I declare myself a believer in something higher, call it God, call it Logos, Jahve, Krishna, Buddha, the Great Spirit, call it what ever you want. I don't belong to any kind of defined religious community, as I have taken things from Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and Taoism, and some would call my faith New Age, but I don't care, because I only have one authority besides my God, and that is my common sense!

I used to be an agnostic but became a believer in my late 20's, and by becoming this I have had experiences in my life put into context and have got some perspective on them and with this peace in my soul. I experienced my dad, the last half year, he lived, where it became clear for him that he was terminally ill of cancer, and I saw how much bitterness and grief, he had from things happened many years ago. So I have seen what it does to a person not to be at peace with ones life and therefore not being able to get tranquility inside. But, just as life experience, belief is not something, we can give to each other in situations, where we need it. Either we have it or we have not!

And yes, I believe in prayer, but I also believe in karma, that what I give out, I'll get returned, so my belief can be described as being the compassion and love from Christianity, the karma, the joy and the happiness from Hinduism and Buddhism, and the feeling that I don't have to exert myself, that things happens at the right time, from Taoism. And funny, I meet people by being the right places the right time in the right situation. Money comes to me when I need them, sometimes in some strange ways, by I have always had, what I needed, when I needed it! Yes, it sounds strange, but being here right now in my life and just knowing, that I will be taken care of by something watching over me, call it faith, God, what ever... It gives me peace in my heart and with this also a surplus to give to others.


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Message 54430 - Posted: 16 Dec 2004, 7:27:41 UTC
Last modified: 16 Dec 2004, 7:30:20 UTC

"God" is the ultimate parent. As you got older, your parents got old. You saw their flaws. They got frail. They died. I think many people's comfort in the "personal God" is an outgrowth of the desire to have that safety of the very young years back again.

With God, some regress not just to the point where "the purpose of life" is known, but even to the point in childhood where the question itself was meaningless. Nevertheless, whether God exists or not is the ultimate Schroedinger's cat equation, and in a box that appears to be impregnable.

I think we run into "chicken and egg" problems when we say our laws are based on religious beliefs. Humans developed as a social animal. Our very bodies grew dependent on a support network and division of labor. As a result, for example, "Thou shalt not kill" was a good rule to keep vendettas from ruining the tribe and destroying the unity and relative safety that was so hard-earned.

Find any example of even the most hardy loner still living in the Alaskan interior or the Australian outback today, and you will find a person who has relied very much on the technology and training that society has provided. No human is ever truly feral.

Survival and safety results in enlightened self-interest, then society, then rituals and customs, and eventually laws. We stuck these laws, for people who were too selfish and questioned them and were too unenlightened to figure out why, under an umbrella of the unknown forces. The same forces that drove the moon and the wind and the host of things we at the time found unfathomable. We called it God. Just as the parent was the authority whether or not you understood the rules at the time, so God is the source of rules your society's leaders of days of yore thought must exist as indisputable to preserve order and allow human life to flourish. They are in truth man's laws, made and given weight by man. At worst I'd call this disingenuous; I don't classify this misrepresentation by itself as evil.

That the name of God has been used for much that is reprehensible is an example of why we MUST have some way of getting past dogmatic adherence to these old, and in modern context sometimes inexplicable, laws. Childhood's end.
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Message 54717 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 15:09:06 UTC

Bump ^ over the "X"'s
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Message 54752 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 21:34:36 UTC

Hello All,
Before you minus me out, I come in Peace. I no longer am associated with the Christian Crunchers Club.I am back with the US Navy Team where I belong.
Unfortunatly I was hospitalized on 11/15/2004 and was released on 12/10/2004 after going in to Respiratory Arrest. After coming back to the Seti Boards I see a tremendous amount has been going on. I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to all those that I offended in past posts, and Carl if your reading this, especially you, for the remark about the lake of fire.I got caught up in something that truly was not in my heart. I did not come to my beliefs in one day, and I have a Father In Law that is a Baptist Minister. He tried to beat it into my head eveyday, and all that did was drive me further and further away. I had to come to where I am today in time, by listening and understanding. There is only one judge in my eyes, so why should I attempt to. I see that WordWeaver has X'd all his entries in the Seti boards, and that is his poragative.
There are many of you one this board who share a wide range of views when it comes to Faith, God and Beliefs. I do have questions, and I hope that I may ask them here, and on the appropriate posts as a means of furthering my knowledge of Faiths and Beliefs and not for controversy.
Lena, you seem to have a very unique persective on "religion", so I look forward to sharing with you if that is acceptable.


Very Respectfully,

Rocky Cudd
www.boincsynergy.com


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Message 54756 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 21:53:18 UTC - in response to Message 54752.  

Hi Rocky
,
> Before you minus me out, I come in Peace. I no longer am associated with the
> Christian Crunchers Club.I am back with the US Navy Team where I belong.

I just gave you a +1 :-)

> There are many of you one this board who share a wide range of views when it
> comes to Faith, God and Beliefs. I do have questions, and I hope that I may
> ask them here, and on the appropriate posts as a means of furthering my
> knowledge of Faiths and Beliefs and not for controversy.
> Lena, you seem to have a very unique persective on "religion", so I look
> forward to sharing with you if that is acceptable.
>
>

Yes, it's OK! But, I just want to tell you that even I don't hide myself of what I believe in, I don't wear my faith as a jewel either! As I said above, I have a very personal relationship with "my" God, and we all have our own path to go! So your path is where you go, and I'm sure, if you are not with malicious intent, you will go the right way!

If you have any specific questions, I'll try to answer from my best ability. But I have a very strong belief in love, compassion and joy, so if I can share a little of this around, the reason for my path will be rewarded, if you know what I mean?
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Message 54757 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 21:53:47 UTC - in response to Message 54752.  
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 21:54:31 UTC

Rocky,

The first few messages in this thread talk about the way most of us feel we should act in posting here, and in other threads. Though I can not say I have always acted this way, a respectful tone goes a long way toward being accepted, and toward making a point; threats and preaching work against you. This thread is a good place to discuss religion (though sometimes subjects bleed into other threads, or into this one, simply because many issues have multiple facets).
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Message 54759 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 21:57:45 UTC - in response to Message 54752.  

Hey Rocky...

Sorry to hear that you were in the hospital. I hope you're feeling better... and glad to see you back, Sir!

Regards

chip
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Message 54760 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 22:06:03 UTC - in response to Message 54756.  

> Yes, it's OK! But, I just want to tell you that even I don't hide myself of
> what I believe in, I don't wear my faith as a jewel either! As I said above, I
> have a very personal relationship with "my" God, and we all have our own path
> to go! So your path is where you go, and I'm sure, if you are not with
> malicious intent, you will go the right way!
>
> If you have any specific questions, I'll try to answer from my best ability.
> But I have a very strong belief in love, compassion and joy, so if I can share
> a little of this around, the reason for my path will be rewarded, if you know
> what I mean?
>
Lena,
I appreciate your words, and I assure you I have no malicious intent. You have said in other posts that you obtain your faith and your relationship with God from a little piece of several "Religions". Don't you find it difficult to find a balancing point, or do you just pick the parts that are right for you.I don't know how othe Faiths like Taoism belive in one God, is this the case? And I can understand what you say that you get out of life what you put in it. Do your combination of Religons belive in the Imaculate conception, and the Birth of Jesus. I know how the Hebrews feel as my Father was rasied Jewish. A heck of a combination, a Jew and a Baptist. Made life interesting. How do you celebrate Christmas, or do you? Is it strictly a Material day like it has become in so many places? If you take some from several Religions, I assume you do not attend an "Organized Church", Do you have your own kind of fellowship with others so you can enjoy spiritual growth? Last question until later. The parts of each Religon that you have picked from to live your life by, Do they change according to situations that you are in, or are they basically set in stone?

Warm Regards,

Rocky
www.boincsynergy.com


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Message 54761 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 22:07:07 UTC - in response to Message 54759.  

> Hey Rocky...
>
> Sorry to hear that you were in the hospital. I hope you're feeling better...
> and glad to see you back, Sir!
>
> Regards
>
> chip
> w3range.net
>Thank You Chip,
I am very very glad to be back

Regards,

Rocky
www.boincsynergy.com


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Message 54762 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 22:10:19 UTC - in response to Message 54757.  
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 22:13:21 UTC

> Rocky,
>
> The first few messages in this thread talk about the way most of us feel we
> should act in posting here, and in other threads. Though I can not say I have
> always acted this way, a respectful tone goes a long way toward being
> accepted, and toward making a point; threats and preaching work against you.
> This thread is a good place to discuss religion (though sometimes subjects
> bleed into other threads, or into this one, simply because many issues have
> multiple facets).
>
Hi Tom,
You are exactly right, and I can say the same for myself. I have not always acted the way that I am comfortable with. But this board should not be a place of personal attack. Religion and Politics do inflame many people, however there are many many intelligent people that post here, and they have done and amazing job at defuzing many potential disasters. I look forward to discussions with you Tom.

Warm Regards,

Rocky
www.boincsynergy.com


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Message 54769 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 22:53:11 UTC - in response to Message 54760.  

> Lena,
> I appreciate your words, and I assure you I have no malicious intent. You
> have said in other posts that you obtain your faith and your relationship with
> God from a little piece of several "Religions". Don't you find it difficult to
> find a balancing point, or do you just pick the parts that are right for you.I
> don't know how othe Faiths like Taoism belive in one God, is this the case?
> And I can understand what you say that you get out of life what you put in it.
> Do your combination of Religons belive in the Imaculate conception, and the
> Birth of Jesus. I know how the Hebrews feel as my Father was rasied Jewish. A
> heck of a combination, a Jew and a Baptist. Made life interesting. How do you
> celebrate Christmas, or do you? Is it strictly a Material day like it has
> become in so many places? If you take some from several Religions, I assume
> you do not attend an "Organized Church", Do you have your own kind of
> fellowship with others so you can enjoy spiritual growth? Last question until
> later. The parts of each Religon that you have picked from to live your life
> by, Do they change according to situations that you are in, or are they
> basically set in stone?

I'm sure Lena will have her own answers to these questions, but I would like to respond also. My religion openly acknowleges the validity of all other world religions. We don't call ourselves Christians or Buddhists or seek membership in those faiths, but neither do we denounce their spiritual practices as wrong or evil. Regarding specific questions of faith, i.e. creation of the universe or the virgin birth of Christ, my answer is that the acts themselves are secondary to the spiritual message of the religion. These stories tell us how to act in righteousness, and whether the universe was created in six days or six billion years, one should still do unto others as one would have others do unto them. Put another way, the physical acts described in religious writing are a framework with which to teach moral and ethical values. Surprisingly, these moral values are found in all religions; but sadly, all religions have those who set aside the teaching of moral action in favor of a misguided dedication to a particular physical account.
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Message 54770 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 22:57:53 UTC - in response to Message 54752.  

Your a good man! Rocky
Welcome Back I hope you
are feeling better. I wish
you Health and Peace for the
Holidays....


Timmy




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Message 54771 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 23:28:05 UTC - in response to Message 54760.  

Hi again,

Yes, I'm sorry for your illness, I hope, you are feeling better now!

> Lena,
> I appreciate your words, and I assure you I have no malicious intent. You
> have said in other posts that you obtain your faith and your relationship with
> God from a little piece of several "Religions". Don't you find it difficult to
> find a balancing point, or do you just pick the parts that are right for you.

No, I actually have a system! It is in the most from the Theosophical Society, but I am not a member of this! More than 20 years ago I started to learn meditation in a group started by some people belonging to a movement started by a Danish lady named Jeanne Morashti, who leaned a lot to madame Blavatski's and Alice Bailey's books. Jeanne later became in a way (she changed her name to Shan Tara among other things) so I needed to break with this group, and since I have not belonged to any groups. But I have read different scripts, the Bible, some of the Veda's, the Theosophical books, Tao Te Ching, some from the Tibetan Book of the Dead, some books about Native Americans faith, and a lot other, so in a way, I have done research in comparative religion with emphasis on the esoterical parts. And, I often find that the different scripts, in my humble interpretation, say the same! So I don't just pick line from here and there! I live in a system.


> I don't know how othe Faiths like Taoism belive in one God, is this the case?

Many religions from the East do believe in one creating God, but usually there is a system of Masters just as Jesus is "under" God in Christianity. In Taoism, you take point in yourself, living here and doing things without resistance, flow with the universe around you! In Tai Chi, which in fact is a martial art besides a meditational system, the art is to, without any unnecessary efforts to send the attacker away in another direction!

> And I can understand what you say that you get out of life what you put in it.

Yes, I believe in reincarnation and karma, and I think I in earlier incarnations have lived all kinds of beliefs, and that I now "remember" these and therefore can harvest from it, as I feel I do! And I have incarnations also as a zealot, which, during the karma I have recieved from forcing my beliefs on others, have made me _very_ aware of everything that just smells like fanaticism!

> Do your combination of Religons belive in the Imaculate conception, and the
> Birth of Jesus.

I don't know about the Imaculative conception, I wasn't there (;-)), but I don't have the Roman Catholics view on this! My father was raised as a Roman Catholic but converted when he married my mother, who was divorced. I have his prayerbook and my grandmother's rosary, which I treasure very much!

But Jesus is one of the ascended Masters in the Theosophy, as the spirit that overflowed him in his incarnated life, was Maytreia.

> I know how the Hebrews feel as my Father was rasied Jewish. A
> heck of a combination, a Jew and a Baptist. Made life interesting. How do you
> celebrate Christmas, or do you?

Yes, just as I keep the days of Easter sacred! I really feel the energy of love on Christmass night (my mother come from a farmer background, and when I was a child, she allways said, that if you go out in the barn on Christmass night, you can hear the animals talk!!! :-)) I like to spend it alone, because I'm out of a family who is not very religious, so Christmass evening is for them a matter of eating. We don't have any small children in my family so we have dropped the gifts, which suits me well. Before, it was allways a question about how expensive the gifts had been, how much you have recieved compared to how much you have given (Vomiting!!!). So I really enjoy my Christmass evening by myself so much! I really feel the peace and love, and for me it's a time for contemplating my life, the people in it, how happy I am for it, and how gratefull I feel for what I get every day from all sides, all the love I recieve even from strangers....

> Is it strictly a Material day like it has
> become in so many places? If you take some from several Religions, I assume
> you do not attend an "Organized Church", Do you have your own kind of
> fellowship with others so you can enjoy spiritual growth?

As said earlier I joined a group in the middle of the 80' but left after some in it had swollen heads, in my view. So I have been very aware of groups since! Back then we gathered and held Service, which was worldpeace meditations and affirmations, and a couple of years ago I met some people, who were attending Jeanne's (Shan Tara's) church in Australia, and I thought it could be fun to attend one of their Service again, but things had changed in a way, I can't quite put my finger on! I don't say it was grey or in any way left hand, but it had ... changed..., so I have not attended since! And I certainly don't have any group myself! I try to spread positive energy, love, compassion and joy, where I am, being the person I am, and again, I don't wear my belief on the outside as a jewel, I just try to act like a decent person. And I also can be very satirically, when someone, like your former friend, ticks me! I'm not an ascended master, you know ;-)


> Last question until
> later. The parts of each Religon that you have picked from to live your life
> by, Do they change according to situations that you are in, or are they
> basically set in stone?
>

I can't really answer this. Are they set in stone? As the principles in the Theosophy are set, I guess, they are, but I change and of course, my life experience through this expands, and with this, also my view on things. And I learn a lot through others, who have other experiences. But I'll never compromise any of my basic ideas, but the contexts can change! This must be the closest I can get on this. Things are not written in concrete for me, but I can not go away from the path, I have chosen, where the principles are causing no harm towards others or myself! But, if someone insists on having my fist in their face, they can have it too!! If you get my meaning? :-)

Sincerely
Lena
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Message 54778 - Posted: 17 Dec 2004, 23:57:36 UTC

Hi All,
Thank you for your very direct responses, and I lok forward to continued conversations. Tom I understand completely where you are coming from, and I guess that is part of my problem, I have clouded my own mind with the not so "reality based" interpretation of what my Faith offers. I do take the Boble literaly, but I also believe that it is open for intrepertation. Not everybody reads things the exact same way. I might not have posed the questions exactly as I might have wished to, but in the next few days, I am sure I will get the proper words together to say and convey how I feel about many things as I hope all of you continue to do.

Again Thank you.
And Timmy Thanks Also!


Warm Regards,

Rocky
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Message 54784 - Posted: 18 Dec 2004, 0:26:51 UTC - in response to Message 54778.  

> Hi All,
> Thank you for your very direct responses, and I lok forward to continued
> conversations. Tom I understand completely where you are coming from, and I
> guess that is part of my problem, I have clouded my own mind with the not so
> "reality based" interpretation of what my Faith offers. I do take the Boble
> literaly, but I also believe that it is open for intrepertation. Not everybody
> reads things the exact same way. I might not have posed the questions exactly
> as I might have wished to, but in the next few days, I am sure I will get the
> proper words together to say and convey how I feel about many things as I hope
> all of you continue to do.

Rocky,

I'm not sure I was clear: I don't think you or anyone else is wrong if you believe in the literal, factual accuracy of the Bible (even if I do not), but where things get twisted is when that "truth" about physical things is elevated above the spiritual truth that is being communicated. We have seen some of that here on these boards--some folks have not acted very "Christian" simply because some others disagree with their belief in the historical accuracy of stories. For me, factual accuracy is irrelevant, because the religious lesson is the real point of the writing.
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