Do you trust China?

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Message 1428643 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 19:54:02 UTC - in response to Message 1428518.  

Whew I thought we were in trouble until I realized we don't have a socialist party running this country. I'm more worried about the unfunding the Conservatives do. Cut taxes and don't cut spending. Reagan did it and failed. What makes the current bunch of libertarian wannabees better than Reagan.


About the earlier comment about Americans don't produce anything anymore. I think its more about American businesses going for as much green as greed can get them over employing their fellow Americans. They'd rather step over the homeless than make work available in the States.



Tax and spend, tax and spend.

Liberals think America doesn't have a spending problem.



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Message 1428645 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 20:06:15 UTC - in response to Message 1428643.  

Whew I thought we were in trouble until I realized we don't have a socialist party running this country. I'm more worried about the unfunding the Conservatives do. Cut taxes and don't cut spending. Reagan did it and failed. What makes the current bunch of libertarian wannabees better than Reagan.


About the earlier comment about Americans don't produce anything anymore. I think its more about American businesses going for as much green as greed can get them over employing their fellow Americans. They'd rather step over the homeless than make work available in the States.



Tax and spend, tax and spend.

Liberals think America doesn't have a spending problem.



and yet the problem is that we dont make anything here. announcing the same old untrue rhetoric is .. well old. The big problem that the American people is that Big Business holds all the cards. They decided long ago to abandon American workers in the name of higher profits. Higher profits and the same prices at the checkout. Magic bigger paychecks for those corporate masterminds. Employee vastly underpaid workers in 3rd world countries. And you wonder why they hate us.


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Message 1428656 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 20:19:20 UTC - in response to Message 1428645.  

And you wonder why they hate us.

But those very same corporations moved their offices outside the USA so they don't pay tax anymore. They really should hate the tax havens that allow this.

Of course the real issue is the law creating the fiduciary duty to the shareholder.


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Message 1428660 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 20:24:51 UTC - in response to Message 1428645.  

Whew I thought we were in trouble until I realized we don't have a socialist party running this country. I'm more worried about the unfunding the Conservatives do. Cut taxes and don't cut spending. Reagan did it and failed. What makes the current bunch of libertarian wannabees better than Reagan.


About the earlier comment about Americans don't produce anything anymore. I think its more about American businesses going for as much green as greed can get them over employing their fellow Americans. They'd rather step over the homeless than make work available in the States.



Tax and spend, tax and spend.

Liberals think America doesn't have a spending problem.



and yet the problem is that we dont make anything here. announcing the same old untrue rhetoric is .. well old. The big problem that the American people is that Big Business holds all the cards. They decided long ago to abandon American workers in the name of higher profits. Higher profits and the same prices at the checkout. Magic bigger paychecks for those corporate masterminds. Employee vastly underpaid workers in 3rd world countries. And you wonder why they hate us.


All well and good but, not related to American Governments spending fixation.

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Message 1428672 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 20:52:21 UTC
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Message 1428703 - Posted: 14 Oct 2013, 22:01:51 UTC - in response to Message 1428425.  

Other than having the wrong Cold War politics, what has China ever done to the US? Even Nixon was ready to overlook that. And when Carter raised its one child policy he was asked how many millions the US wanted.

Historically the US sent troops to China to protect trade concessions aka Boxer Rebellion. Historically China won a civil war against the dictator Chiang Kai Chek. Historically China defended North Korea from being ruled by a South Korean dictator. Seems to me China should be more concerned about the US than vice versa.



The socialist party in the USA will spend us into oblivion internally, meanwhile the GOPs foreign policies will piss everyone off externally...we cannot win with the republicans and the liberals. We need independents or congress will implode.

China might be looking like a good place to hide in about 10 years with all the silliness in Washington DC.


A few years ago there was an opinion poll in China on trusting the government. No on has suggested there was any coercion or influence on those polled or on the published results. The Chinese trust their government much more than American trust their government.

The objective is to have good government. It is not to have a democracy. Democracy is merely the best method people have found in the last 2500 to maximize the number of good governments. That the maximum is maybe 50% in a good year is a separate issue.

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Message 1428900 - Posted: 15 Oct 2013, 9:30:09 UTC - in response to Message 1428703.  

Other than having the wrong Cold War politics, what has China ever done to the US? Even Nixon was ready to overlook that. And when Carter raised its one child policy he was asked how many millions the US wanted.

Historically the US sent troops to China to protect trade concessions aka Boxer Rebellion. Historically China won a civil war against the dictator Chiang Kai Chek. Historically China defended North Korea from being ruled by a South Korean dictator. Seems to me China should be more concerned about the US than vice versa.



The socialist party in the USA will spend us into oblivion internally, meanwhile the GOPs foreign policies will piss everyone off externally...we cannot win with the republicans and the liberals. We need independents or congress will implode.

China might be looking like a good place to hide in about 10 years with all the silliness in Washington DC.


A few years ago there was an opinion poll in China on trusting the government. No on has suggested there was any coercion or influence on those polled or on the published results. The Chinese trust their government much more than American trust their government.

The objective is to have good government. It is not to have a democracy. Democracy is merely the best method people have found in the last 2500 to maximize the number of good governments. That the maximum is maybe 50% in a good year is a separate issue.




Who said America is a Democracy? I certainly didn't.

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Message 1428983 - Posted: 15 Oct 2013, 21:27:08 UTC - in response to Message 1428660.  

Whew I thought we were in trouble until I realized we don't have a socialist party running this country. I'm more worried about the unfunding the Conservatives do. Cut taxes and don't cut spending. Reagan did it and failed. What makes the current bunch of libertarian wannabees better than Reagan.


About the earlier comment about Americans don't produce anything anymore. I think its more about American businesses going for as much green as greed can get them over employing their fellow Americans. They'd rather step over the homeless than make work available in the States.



Tax and spend, tax and spend.

Liberals think America doesn't have a spending problem.



and yet the problem is that we dont make anything here. announcing the same old untrue rhetoric is .. well old. The big problem that the American people is that Big Business holds all the cards. They decided long ago to abandon American workers in the name of higher profits. Higher profits and the same prices at the checkout. Magic bigger paychecks for those corporate masterminds. Employee vastly underpaid workers in 3rd world countries. And you wonder why they hate us.


All well and good but, not related to American Governments spending fixation.

It most certainly is. Corporations are getting bigger and bigger but paying a smaller and smaller portion of the pie. Corporate executive get prefered tax rates by taking compensation in the form of stock in their own company. we could talk about that diluting teh value of actual stock holders but it would be cheating. The stocks are sold and a hefty 15% tax hits the books. Which certainly beats pay IIRC 34% at the top tax rate. So forgive me if I don't think corporations are a large part of the problem.
Lets also talk about all those manufacturing jobs that left the country. Jobs now filled by 3rd world country workers that don't pay a dime in US taxes. Now look at the US manufacturing worker that now gets to work for minimum wage instead of a living wage. He went from a taxpaying citizen that helped pay for gov't spending to a partial burden on society. Doesnt really seem fair to me. If anything I think big business deserves a swift kick in the rear.


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Message 1429037 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 0:27:45 UTC - in response to Message 1428983.  

Whew I thought we were in trouble until I realized we don't have a socialist party running this country. I'm more worried about the unfunding the Conservatives do. Cut taxes and don't cut spending. Reagan did it and failed. What makes the current bunch of libertarian wannabees better than Reagan.


About the earlier comment about Americans don't produce anything anymore. I think its more about American businesses going for as much green as greed can get them over employing their fellow Americans. They'd rather step over the homeless than make work available in the States.



Tax and spend, tax and spend.

Liberals think America doesn't have a spending problem.



and yet the problem is that we dont make anything here. announcing the same old untrue rhetoric is .. well old. The big problem that the American people is that Big Business holds all the cards. They decided long ago to abandon American workers in the name of higher profits. Higher profits and the same prices at the checkout. Magic bigger paychecks for those corporate masterminds. Employee vastly underpaid workers in 3rd world countries. And you wonder why they hate us.


All well and good but, not related to American Governments spending fixation.

It most certainly is. Corporations are getting bigger and bigger but paying a smaller and smaller portion of the pie. Corporate executive get prefered tax rates by taking compensation in the form of stock in their own company. we could talk about that diluting teh value of actual stock holders but it would be cheating. The stocks are sold and a hefty 15% tax hits the books. Which certainly beats pay IIRC 34% at the top tax rate. So forgive me if I don't think corporations are a large part of the problem.
Lets also talk about all those manufacturing jobs that left the country. Jobs now filled by 3rd world country workers that don't pay a dime in US taxes. Now look at the US manufacturing worker that now gets to work for minimum wage instead of a living wage. He went from a taxpaying citizen that helped pay for gov't spending to a partial burden on society. Doesnt really seem fair to me. If anything I think big business deserves a swift kick in the rear.


So, you don't think the government spends too much money?

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Message 1429038 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 0:29:33 UTC - in response to Message 1428923.  

The objective is to have good government. It is not to have a democracy.

Rah rah, rally round the flag peeps, vote for Matt Giwer for Dictator!



America has never been a Democracy. We don't use that system of government here.

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Message 1429054 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 1:39:08 UTC - in response to Message 1429037.  

So, you don't think the government spends too much money?

Yes our govt spends too much money and does not bring in enough money to do what needs to be done. Two problems over simplified by simple minds.
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Message 1429077 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 3:50:02 UTC - in response to Message 1428923.  

The objective is to have good government. It is not to have a democracy.

Rah rah, rally round the flag peeps, vote for Matt Giwer for Dictator!



Japan was a democracy all through the 20th c. including during WWII and it predecessor conflict in Manchuria and China.

Mussolini was duly elected and held office in accordance with the democratic constitution of Italy. Granted he had limitations as internal rule was largely held by the king of Italy so the country was not completely democratic in the first place.

Hitler became chancellor and held office until his death fully in accordance with the democratic constitution of the Weimar Republic.

While Britain was a declared democracy it successfully enslaved 1/4 of the world's population. While that may have resulted in good government for Britain proper it was hell on hundreds of millions of others including the Englishmen in the American colonies.

To claim these countries were not democracies one has to show exactly in what manner they were in violation of their country's definition of democracy.

There is nothing in any definition of a democracy prohibiting any particular form or style of leadership per se. Britain only adopted regular elections some 20 years ago albeit the problem is usually to frequent than to rare. The US form of democracy is great on separation of powers. Parliamentary governments do not separate legislative and executive and are often rather loose with the judicial separation.

As to representation there is the US with a two party system that is everything short of limited by law. In other countries it appears two citizens can result in three parties. In others there is only one party with all the free votes and elections one could possibly imagine within that party. Still in most countries candidates are strictly controlled by the elected party leadership not by open primaries as the US adopted a few decades ago. If the boys in the smoke-filled rooms had not liked FDR his political career would have ended in New York. Some democracy.

Most democracies require equal rights for all citizens. Others specifically give greater rights and privileges to some groups of citizens while holding others to inferior or limited rights. Some rule nearly half of the population under them by military dictatorship yet are still called democracies and loudly claim to e without condemnation. That despite open government segregationist policies even as a national objective.

The Union of South Africa and the US were considered democracies despite their treatment of non-whites for example.

Whatever you might consider democracy to be in its many forms in both theory and practice it does not necessarily lead to good government. It is not credible to define democracy as only the kind that yields good government. Churchill's quip comes to mind.


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Message 1429082 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 4:03:11 UTC - in response to Message 1429038.  

The objective is to have good government. It is not to have a democracy.

Rah rah, rally round the flag peeps, vote for Matt Giwer for Dictator!



America has never been a Democracy. We don't use that system of government here.


Considering how many democracies were on both sides of WWII one might suggest something else be tried.

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Message 1429096 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 4:48:33 UTC

People seem to forget that Hitler was an Austrian. Not a German.
Skil. the top rate is now 39.5% for the high income bracket. Does the Taxation of US Corps suck? Sure
I just completed a class on the subject and there are a lot of loopholes that need to be closed.
Back on the subject: China is already the next Super Power. Just quietly moving along.
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Message 1429147 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 6:32:33 UTC

Britain only adopted regular elections some 20 years ago albeit the problem is usually to frequent than to rare

I'm a bit lost here Mat, what elections are you referring to?

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Message 1429149 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 6:46:15 UTC - in response to Message 1429147.  

Britain only adopted regular elections some 20 years ago albeit the problem is usually to frequent than to rare

I'm a bit lost here Mat, what elections are you referring to?


Pardon if I am in error. It is always a bit dangerous to comment upon the political systems of others.

It is my understanding that until the change a government could theoretically stay in power forever without calling elections. The change was elections every 8(10?) years whether or not the government falls. Is that close enough or complete nonsense?
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Message 1429157 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 7:24:36 UTC - in response to Message 1429149.  

Pardon if I am in error. It is always a bit dangerous to comment upon the political systems of others.

It is my understanding that until the change a government could theoretically stay in power forever without calling elections. The change was elections every 8(10?) years whether or not the government falls. Is that close enough or complete nonsense?

An election has been required every five years since the Reform Act of 1832.
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Message 1429164 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 7:34:12 UTC - in response to Message 1429149.  

Britain only adopted regular elections some 20 years ago albeit the problem is usually to frequent than to rare

I'm a bit lost here Mat, what elections are you referring to?


Pardon if I am in error. It is always a bit dangerous to comment upon the political systems of others.

It is my understanding that until the change a government could theoretically stay in power forever without calling elections. The change was elections every 8(10?) years whether or not the government falls. Is that close enough or complete nonsense?

England has had elected parliaments since the 13th century.

Originally there was no maximum length of parliament, in 1694 it was set to 3 years but increase later in 1715 to 7 years. In 1911 it was set a 5 years and has been at that length since then except for the WW2 period when it was set to a max of 10 years with an agreement that elections would be called when the war finished.
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Message 1429167 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 8:00:40 UTC

Thanks on the Brit elections, folks. I have no idea what I was thinking of.
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Message 1429170 - Posted: 16 Oct 2013, 8:32:39 UTC - in response to Message 1429038.  

The objective is to have good government. It is not to have a democracy.

Rah rah, rally round the flag peeps, vote for Matt Giwer for Dictator!



America has never been a Democracy. We don't use that system of government here.

In the absolute original meaning of Democracy you may be correct. But a system where every eligible person votes on every motion is obviously unworkable. Democracy has now come to mean where people vote for representatives to attend Government meetings and vote there on the people behalf.

Therefore under any modern meaning of Democracy the US is a Democratic Republic.
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