... I am too old now, and you can't teach new tricks to an old dog.

Never.

And sometimes you can ;-)


Keep searchin',
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... As far as I understand it Pascal based on AGOL 60, was thought to be mostly suitable for a teaching environment and not mainstream commerce. Something to do with the language not allowing procedures or functions to be passed as parameters to predefine the expected type of their parameters.

An important part of the ethos of Pascal was to eliminate the dangers of "pointers" and the debug fun they can cause in such as C. However, that also does away with the cleverness that can be done with data structures and object templates as used in C++.

Regardless, Pascal is still very capable. However, my own preferences are with other languages.

The fact is that there are more jobs wanting general office software use than there are for programmers. We don't have typing pools any more ...

Then have a specific subject for that. Importantly, teach to use a range of software packages spanning more than one vendor. It really is excruciatingly painful to see new starters panic-stricken when faced with even just the different versions of Microsoft systems. They are lost if the names are not exactly so and even more lost if the menus are in a slightly different position!

In contrast, the one saving grace for Apple Macs is the rigidly enforced consistent GUI. However, that can be just as bewildering when the menus don't quite fit the Apple proscription. It also encourages the users to become passive and ever more ignorant for the use of IT, incapable of learning anything 'new'...

Teach methods and what-to-do. Not Victorian rote following of screendumps!!

Apple gives schools computers... why? They are trying to increase market share...

That should be stopped as fraudulent.

The whole point of Education is to equip people to earn a living, you don't teach stuff that is not needed. ...

WRONG! VERY WRONG!

Teach what is 'needed' yes. You must ALSO teach children how to learn for themselves and to be inspired to do more than just become the same old robot repeating each day the same as the previous day.

Teachers need to be inspiring so that a few extras can be included to encourage at least some children to be innovative in whatever small ways.


IT is very much what we make it and what we allow it to become,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... First language for me was FORTRAN IV. Then a smattering of APL...

Very old and grumpy and crusty then?

What I know is that you aren't a programmer until you have learned more than one language and done real programming on more that one O/S and hardware architecture.

Agreed.


IT is what we make it,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

I never tried C++, I am too old now, and you can't teach new tricks to an old dog.

Sorry I disagree, I am definitely going to have a bash at that and I am in my late 60's! Learning a new computer language is just like learning a new spoken language. The trick is knowing what you want to say in the first place in one language. Then you simply convert it to another to say the same thing. e.g. Good morning in English becomes Bonjour in French, or Guten Morgen in German.

To be fair PL1 is mainframe stuff and is accepted as a difficult one.

The only language I took a course in is PL/I. I did not understand a single thing and, since I was 44, I thought I was too old to learn computer programming. Then, having changed job and company, I was given a copy of the "white book", the C language manual. I read the first chapter and found I could understand it. I never tried C++, I am too old now, and you can't teach new tricks to an old dog.
Tullio

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Pascal was my first computer language and it wasn't that far of a leap to C++. I don't know why Pascal kinda dropped off the map.

I really must try c++ one day. As far as I understand it Pascal based on AGOL 60, was thought to be mostly suitable for a teaching environment and not mainstream commerce. Something to do with the language not allowing procedures or functions to be passed as parameters to predefine the expected type of their parameters. But many major development such as for the Apple Lisa and Macintosh, heavily depended on Pascal (to the point where the C interface for the Macintosh Toolbox had to use Pascal data types).

Very few find a job working for one of the big software companies (like MS, Google, Cisco, etc.) But you'd be surprised how many niche software companies there are out there.

The fact is that there are more jobs wanting general office software use than there are for programmers. We don't have typing pools any more these days, managers write their own letters and stuff, and make presentations to senior management using charts and graphs. Unless you are a Director of course.

Apple gives schools computers... why? They are trying to increase market share. It IS possible to write software with a Windows interface on a MAC, but testing isn't reliable unless it's on a Windows box.

Schools tend to get heavy educational discounts, and if Apple gives them the best deal it's hard to say no. Also government Depts of Education often offer a national scheme at even better prices. Apple Macs are mainly used in the newspaper, magazine, and Desktop Publishing areas where they are best suited to that job. 9/10 general offices use a Windows platform and MSOffice software or a free equivalent like Open Office.

The whole point of Education is to equip people to earn a living, you don't teach stuff that is not needed. Do chauffeurs need to know how to strip and rebuild an engine to do their job. No. Does the average office worker need to know how to program windows to use a word processor? No. Those that think schools should revert to teaching computer science, rather than a generation of secretaries, don't understand the job Market place. We have enough trouble as it is with people falling out of Uni with soft/easy degrees like media studies or leisure & travel etc, then finding no one wants to employ them.

Of course we need programmers as well, that is why there are HND and Degree courses in the science. This commputer science in schools business reared its ugly head about 18 months ago, and flushed out all the head in the sand types. I see it still goes on. The Raspberry Pi is seen by many as the BBC Micro of the 21C, and actually runs BBC Basic the first program I ever taught myself. And one of the aims at $25 each is for every school child to have one. Why do I see that as a potential money spinner for someone, rather than educating kids with skills that wont get them a job. If a student wants to go on to a degree in application programming then a PI could be a useful tool to cut their teeth on.

These latest new hires are all complaining they want Macs because that's what they used in school (and thus are more familiar with), and most of them know very little about the Windows environment.

How the he|_|_ did HR offer them a job?

The prevailing hypothesis is that, since this is a completely new department built from the ground up during the reorg, that they were willing to hire just about anybody to fill positions and get the project off the ground. Indeed most of them have been given nearly everything they have asked for so that they cannot come back and say the company did not give them the resources needed to be successful if they were to fail.

These latest new hires are all complaining they want Macs because that's what they used in school (and thus are more familiar with), and most of them know very little about the Windows environment.

How the he|_|_ did HR offer them a job?

First language for me was FORTRAN IV. Then a smattering of APL, didn't have the math then to really get it. Went next to IBM 1130 assembler. That actually rounded me out a lot. Some Honeywell 635 assembler and whatever FORTRAN was on that system. At one point around there I knew enough COBOL to write a hello world program. Also picked up FORTRAN G and FORTRAN H on a IBM 360. Yes, they are different. Got in BASIC on a PDP-11, also hacked that one, and HP 3000's SPL. Must have been a version of FORTRAN I was using on a DEC-10 where I first learned TECO. From there 6502, 8080 and Z80, Pascal. Recently picked up C and since I have a Mac a bit of Objective C. Haven't gone for C++ yet.

What I know is that you aren't a programmer until you have learned more than one language and done real programming on more that one O/S and hardware architecture.

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Here in the UK, "Computer Science" being taught as a subject was abandoned to be replaced by what I see as was a "Microsoft office skills" 'ITC' blunder.

Oh rubbish!

I agree with you here Chris. My company has recently undergone a reorganization to better position themselves in the marketplace during the recession, and we've recently hired a bunch of new coders (programmers) to re-write a lot of our customer software applications and to improve on them. These latest new hires are all complaining they want Macs because that's what they used in school (and thus are more familiar with), and most of them know very little about the Windows environment. This has caused in increase in support tickets because they don't know anything about the new Windows environment and how to write applications for it. There's been some grumbling about these new hires and a loss in trust that they have the competency required to lead the company forward.

...and we write for/use a Windows environment because that's what our customers use.

C++ and J++ are the high level languages. I learned Pascal many years ago with the OU and enjoyed it. The whole idea of eduacation whether at school level or FE level is to equip the student to be able to get a job and earn a living. The employers say what they are prepared to pay wages for, Martin says stuff that, lets teach them things that aren't any use to anyone.

Here in the UK, "Computer Science" being taught as a subject was abandoned to be replaced by what I see as was a "Microsoft office skills" 'ITC' blunder.

Oh rubbish!

Martin, The employers Federations and Chamber of Commerces all over the country were asked what skills were lacking in school leavers. They all said, we want them to be proficient on day 1 in a new job with L2 ability in, word processing, basic spreadsheets, and a graphics package. An appreciation of databases would be an advantage. What is the industry standard? Microsoft Office. Why do you think the ECDL was brought in? Why do you think it is so popular throughout the world?

Were you ever an IT teacher? Did you ever talk to employers who pay wages about what they actually want? Well I was, and I have, and you are talking tosh. If people want to be experts in computer science such as programming, there are plenty of HND and degree courses that they can take in that niche industry.

Knowledge of Raspberry Pi's will not get you a job, an ECDL and knowledge of MS office will. End of story.

Here in the UK, "Computer Science" being taught as a subject was abandoned to be replaced by what I see as was a "Microsoft office skills" 'ITC' blunder.


Since then, we have the Raspberry Pi newly on the scene and new hope for spurring the introduction oncemore of teaching Computing to children and adults alike:


Learning Python using Codecademy and Raspberry Pi Minecraft: a resource of great note

... we got to talking about teaching using Raspberry Pi Minecraft. For a while I’d harboured a plan to write some proper teaching resources for it and had scribbled a few notes but hadn’t had time to develop it. Craig had had the same idea – yes, it was just like Darwin and Wallace – and we decided to get our heads together. Shortly afterwards Craig sent me what he had been working on...


Raspberry Pi Minecraft server

... What I really liked about Edwin’s blog are his final comments. Whether you are hacking Minecraft or building a media server or sending them into near space or messing about in Scratch, this is why we do what we do:

"You really have to admire the whole idea of the Raspberry Pi. They are brilliantly cheap, low power servers and whilst I may not have learned much about coding with them so far, I sure have learned a lot about the world outside of Windows, and just how much you can get out of very low priced hardware. The Pi represents a great deal of opportunity for all sorts of people with the ideas for all sorts of projects. I implore you to think of your own and give it a go, you won’t regret it." ...


Cue a freely usable device, FLOSS freedom, killer apps, and enthusiasm. How can any proprietary corporate types slap that down again?

Hopefully we have a new hope for computer and IT freedom as opposed to user exploitative enslavement.


IT is what we make it and what we allow it to become,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)