Tullio, with your agreement I'll make a new Italy thread and move this to it.

Very good.

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Tullio, with your agreement I'll make a new Italy thread and move this to it.

Defense expenditure is not being cut. The generals are a powerful lobby. But the Culture Ministry is not paying its bills and museums will soon have no electric lights.
Tullio

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That sounds like good news to me, but are you sure your government can afford it, I thought you were supposed to be as cash strapped as other Mediterranean countries?

Italy has two new carriers, the Garibaldi and Cavour, with curved jet ramps and no catapults. They are using the Harrier now and they could have bought a few ones from UK at a moderate cost.
The F35 costs about 150 million dollars. Our Gov has made an order of 30 jets for the Navy (F35b) and 60 for the Air Force (F35a). The issue will be discussed in Parliament.
Tullio

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Hi James,

You are quite right, the choice of the F35B should have been a no brainer. But militarily Britain is cash strapped after years of government over spending, in addition we don't need our own independent strike force any more in this modern world, there won't be another nation against nation conflict like the Falklands again. Future wars will be fought as part of a coalition with others against a common foe, hence joint equipment.

The Harriers in all their various forms are one of the worlds most versatile aircraft, and are quite rightly loved by their pilots. It was a brilliant design based around the Pegasus engine, and the Vstol capability gave it the option of being in the frontline of operations, landing in a jungle clearing, covered in camouflage overnight, and taking off again the next day, for another place, without needing an airfield. One of the main design requirements was an 8 hour engine change in the field, no other jet aircraft can do that. We could have had our own supersonic jump jet, the Harrier P1154, back in the late 60's and stealth capability could have been added later. But the government refused to fund it.

You might have noticed that I referred to the original VSTOL operation, whereas these days it is STOVL. It is quite true that a Harrier can take of vertically with a full weapons load and full tanks of fuel, but it was found in the latter years of operation that doing so was drastically shortening engine life. Therefore unless operationally necessary, they are/were used by the RAF and the USMC in the short take off via ski ramps, and vertical landing role. As someone that worked for Hawker Siddeley Aviation at Ham Common in the early 1970's helping to build Harriers and the then new Hawks, I am delighted to know that our "cast off's" will have a good home, and the last we heard was that the USMC want to operate them until 2030 AV8B

As to the new carriers they are the latest Queen Elizabeth class and two are currently under construction. New carriers The main innovation is separate control towers, with the forward one being the ship control, and the rear one being a separate flight control. The first one HMS Queen Elizabeth will be seaborne in 2017 for trials and fully operational by 2020. The second one HMS Prince of Wales, will be built but possibly not fitted out. It was found to be cheaper to actually build it rather than pay the penalties for cancelling the contract. The decision will not be taken until 2015, and presumably after the General election. As you can see, politics is messing about in our defence capability yet again, no wonder our armed forces are demoralised, but that is another issue.

p.s. To the management - I know this is going off topic from the thread title, but it's OK with me, at least for now.

I think they are costing about $100million each. But for that money you are getting a state of the art stealth fighter. But what is so ridiculous is the UK MOD faffing about on which version to buy. Initially they went for the F35B the STOVL version, then they thought it was cheaper to buy the F35C carrier version. Then they discovered how much it was going to cost to convert the new carriers to cat & trap operation, and went back to the STOVL version again.

When the Harriers were scrapped as part of the Defence review in 2010, the USA bought the whole lot of 74 and a pile of spares. My opinion of that is unprintable.

I would think that your experience with the Harrier it would have been a no brainer to get the same in the F-35. Is your new carrier a full fledged carrier or just a modern version of the kind you retirerd?

As for the Harriers you sold the Marines Rest assured they are in good hands. The marine pilots love them, But Who knows when they will start phaseing them out.

The US still suffers a good deal from the not invented here syndrome, But we sure made good deals on the Harrier and the B-57 Canberra .

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Old James

I think they are costing about $100million each. But for that money you are getting a state of the art stealth fighter. But what is so ridiculous is the UK MOD faffing about on which version to buy. Initially they went for the F35B the STOVL version, then they thought it was cheaper to buy the F35C carrier version. Then they discovered how much it was going to cost to convert the new carriers to cat & trap operation, and went back to the STOVL version again.

When the Harriers were scrapped as part of the Defence review in 2010, the USA bought the whole lot of 74 and a pile of spares. My opinion of that is unprintable.

The F35 Joint Strike Fighter is a very costly aircraft. I've read on theregister.co.uk that the US Marine Corps has bought 74 Harrier aircraft from the UK Defense Ministry.
Tullio

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The main thing is they don't have a unified military.

We do have NATO which Albania and Croatia joined in 2009. We also have the Joint Strike Fighter. I suppose we could also call upon UN troops as peacekeepers if it became necessary. But you are strictly correct in that there isn't an EU Army, Navy or Airforce as such, merely agreements by the 28 member states to a mutual defence in response to an attack by any external party. In which case it is very useful to have pilots trained to fly other countries aircraft.

It was also announced in 2011 that thirty Royal Navy pilots were to be taught French to allow them to train on board French carrier Charles de Gaulle, where they may fly French Rafale jets. Also in 2012 it was announced that 13 British Royal Navy pilots are undertaking 4 year assignments to the USA flying F18 jets.
Mainly to keep maritime flying skills until the new British aircraft carriers and the stealth fighter jets due to fly from them are ready.

Got me to think about the state of the former Tito Republic with the name of Slovenia.

Probably a very nice place today. You could have lunch in Milano, Italy and eat dinner in Slovenia the same day if you would wish to do so.

I will check it out using Google.

When working in Trieste Area Science Park I used to go to Lipica (where the white horses are being trained) to fill my tank of gasoline. I went back to my home near Milano on Saturday and returned to Trieste on Monday to start working.
Go visit the Triglav National Park and the Valley of the 7 lakes, near the Bled lake.
Tullio

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Got me to think about the state of the former Tito Republic with the name of Slovenia.

Probably a very nice place today. You could have lunch in Milano, Italy and eat dinner in Slovenia the same day if you would wish to do so.

I will check it out using Google.

We cannot have a common money and a European Central Bank without a government setting its guidelines. Are we going to be governed by bankers we have not elected?
Tullio

Odd since Brussels is run by a whole heap of none-elected Commissioners. The
Government you would like to see in place is not the kind they want to have
in operation.

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The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

and if that central gov't doesn't carry weight over the "states" then it cannot lead.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

We cannot have a common money and a European Central Bank without a government setting its guidelines. Are we going to be governed by bankers we have not elected?
Tullio

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Are you sure you really want a federal government???
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2348225/MEPs-caught-camera-turning-work-just-minutes-day-order-claim-300-expenses.html

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

I agree that we need a Federal Government and a unified defense force. That was the dream of De Gasperi, Adenauer and Schuman, but it was sunk by France. Now I think it was Ireland which objected to the idea of a Federal Government. Maybe they still think they are part of the British Islands.
Tullio

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Sooooo at what point are we going to stop calling those countries, countries and calling them states. It seems that they have a unified flag much like the 13 colony flag the US had at one time.

They tore down the borders to teh EU members a good while back. How about mixing the countries up. Make yourselves a melting pot. once intertwined the bonds of each state not being separate but equal and each holding power in the gov't.

BTW the EU is going to continue to fail. Please read the US Articles of the COnfederation. The states had all the power and the Main Gov't was weak. The EU is not able to do much other than Create its own money and dictate the economic will of its weaker partners.

The main thing is they don't have a unified military.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

But I am not a magician and cannot foresee the future

Well there quite a few around these boards that think they can ;-))

It's the most probable cause. But I am not a magician and cannot foresee the future.
Tullio

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