In this case, why promote optimized apps or even allow them to exist ?
It's an undeniable growth driver for the SETI@home project.
More discussions forward, the less I know the consistency of the overall process of CreditNew.

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Every credit method we've ever used, with the exception of FLOP counting punished optimization, especially optimization of the stock apps.

Splendid design all of them, then :D

That was sarcasm. A design that punishes optimisation, credit wise, needs either that smiley who hits himself on the head with a hammer or the smiley that hits the other one with a pie.

Well your sarcasm could result in SETI@HOME not using a third party app. Like all or most other BOINC projects.
That would slove the problem. SARCASM intended.

Edit- Thomas you have a good point, Maybe its time to just end opt apps.

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[/quote]

Old James

The aim of having optimised apps is to process the telescope recordings from Arecibo more quickly, so that we find E.T. sooner. Never forget that.

The aim of having optimised apps is to process the telescope recordings from Arecibo more quickly, so that we find E.T. sooner. Never forget that.

+1 Richard !

<edit> +51 for my team </edit>

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There is a simple way to fix all the problems. Split the project, create a separate RAC for MB & AP then nobody will claim about the credit diferences, you choice what you want to crunch and have a fair comparision on the work done.

And this would be final failure of CreditNew. Cause that main it's advertised advantage was INTERPROJECT comparability. And SETI MB vs SETI AP will be uncomparable just as AP and MB uncomparable right now.

But keep the things as they stay now is irrational, just see the server status page and you will notice that.

I know it´s dificult to compare oranges with apples but there is a way, their weight, so unless AP and MB paid aproximately the same number of credits when processed by the same host (credit/time/host) we have an impossible task.

What you called "the main advertised advantage of the interproject comparability" is clearely not working, even inside SETI only (AP vs MB credit). That´s faulty is exactly why all complains are related to.

I insist in the point, we don´t need more credit, we just need a balance, in theory that´s why creditnew exists and exactly because that is not happening is why we say it is not working fine.

And yes i agree with all who defend opt apps, Richard is totaly right!, they are faster & better. Can´t understand why someone could call them less eficient. Anyone could do this test: Run stock and run opp apps. What produces more science (crunch more WU) in the same host for any time period? opp apps of course, so in the real world, more science vs the same power used vs same time crunching = more eficient, i belive a lot forget we live in a human real world.

Killing opt apps, is like killing the patient to treat the disease... totaly insane.

The failure is on the "academic dessing" of creditnew, it could be an "statistical perfection" but in the real world it´s clearely not working. Why, i have no ideia, but it´s clear it´s not working as promised & advertised.

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Edit- Thomas you have a good point, Maybe its time to just end opt apps.

Just delete your app_info &/or app_config files and let us know how you go in 2 months time. ;-)

Cheers.

Edit- Thomas you have a good point, Maybe its time to just end opt apps.

Just delete your app_info &/or app_config files and let us know how you go in 2 months time. ;-)

I think all the volunteers using optimized apps don't confess defeat so easily. In any case, not me !
And it would be a lack of respect to all developers who have worked hard at the new version of LUNATICS.
The solution isn't there and everyone knows it.
I do uninstalls anything :p

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Every credit method we've ever used, with the exception of FLOP counting punished optimization, especially optimization of the stock apps.

Splendid design all of them, then :D

That was sarcasm. A design that punishes optimisation, credit wise, needs either that smiley who hits himself on the head with a hammer or the smiley that hits the other one with a pie.

Well your sarcasm could result in SETI@HOME not using a third party app. Like all or most other BOINC projects.
That would slove the problem. SARCASM intended.

Edit- Thomas you have a good point, Maybe its time to just end opt apps.

Well... such reaction is _very_ interesting.... Maybe worth to re-read discussion and rethink outcome, not ?

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

The aim of having optimised apps is to process the telescope recordings from Arecibo more quickly, so that we find E.T. sooner. Never forget that.

Exactly. And all who "maybe time to throw opt apps away" kind of thinking maybe worth to recall for what about this project is in whole?
The point is not to throw opt apps away or not to improve stock. The point is that "credits" wich whole existing has only single reasonable aim - to stimulate participation in project for "ladder-liking" part of participants working AGAINST us. Hence, credit scheme should be changed to correspond its aim.

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

Every credit method we've ever used, with the exception of FLOP counting punished optimization, especially optimization of the stock apps.

Then I would push return to FLOP counting scheme and forget about illusionary "interproject comparability" David wanted so much. It didn't work anyway.
"credits" is only tool. Could be useful tool but useless and boring tool right now. And BOINC staff should not forget about that. It's ONLY a tool, we perfectly can live w/o it at all. Almost ALL projects with few special exceptions are about something another, not about mathematical statistics and its application to BOINc work done estimation... I would only tolerate such "credits" if there is grant allocated for credit scheme development that pays in part for SETI project staff and operation costs. Is it the case currently? I'm afraid not.

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

Every credit method we've ever used, with the exception of FLOP counting punished optimization, especially optimization of the stock apps.

That´s a real paradox, imagine what could happening if you punish your employee because he produce more...

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After all, it's also them who are punish because the project doesn't move forward at the rate of the evolutions regarding power GPU.
To summarize, everybody is punished and the project seems out of step with the expectation of volunteers' large number which have, at the moment, only the credits to reward their work while waiting for the signal.

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It's ONLY a tool, we perfectly can live w/o it at all.

Not agree with that, Raistmer.
This is our only reward now and a reward that motivates many volunteers.
And I speak as a Team Founder concerned about the involvement of its members.

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It's ONLY a tool, we perfectly can live w/o it at all.

Not agree with that, Raistmer.
This is our only reward now and a reward that motivates many volunteers.
And I speak as a Team Founder concerned about the involvement of its members.

"To increase motivaion" - yes, it's for "credits" needed. If they de-motivate - throw them away, that's my point.

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SETI apps news
We're not gonna fight them. We're gonna transcend them.

It's ONLY a tool, we perfectly can live w/o it at all.

Not agree with that, Raistmer.
This is our only reward now and a reward that motivates many volunteers.
And I speak as a Team Founder concerned about the involvement of its members.

"To increase motivaion" - yes, it's for "credits" needed. If they de-motivate - throw them away, that's my point.

Can you imagine the number of things that would disappear if the credits disappeared ?
The credits eventually became one essential component of the project and I don't think it's accidentally.

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Again, return to the real world, humans are highly competitive, is part of the human nature you can´t take that from us, credits is the only way we have to measure our producton, we humans need an incentive (could be even meaningless credits) specialy on a long term project like SETI.

Do you want to look who much the credits realy value? Just see the Wow Event... Imagine if an event like this could happen with no credits? And the team internal competitions? Team challenges?

Yes, credit could have no real value for science and we could be here to try to find an E.T. but we never could forget, first we are humans, we need some kind of reward for what we doing, even a "zero value credit"!, that´s the way our brains works.

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In all honesty.
Maybe this applies to 90% of the top 200 crunchers.
Or lets say the power crunchers.
Out of what 150.000 active volunteers.
The comparison is still valid because everyone gets the same amount of credits.

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With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

The comparison is still valid because everyone gets the same amount of credits.

If that was the true then why we are here in this thread? No you are wrong, the comparision is not valid anymore, AP paids 2x the credits of MB, so if you are one of the lucky ones who picks AP from the servers you receive 2x more credit than others who only receive MB, so we don´t have any way to realy compare nothing, you can´t even say i´m crunching more or less today, there are no way to measure that anymore (at least an easy way).

That´s what we need to fix, not creditnew itself, if they want to keep creditnew or whatever else credit systems is meaningless for me, just make them paid the same amount (any amount could be 1 or 1MM) for AP or MB vs time on the same host of course. Just simple like that. We adjust the rest.

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Actually, I start to find this discussion amusing :)

I still don't care a bit about credits.
I still want to get them right - because I'm a scientist and that forcing of a square peg into a circular hole just makes my hairs stand on end.

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A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. (Mark Twain)

I still don't care a bit about credits.
I still want to get them right - because I'm a scientist and that forcing of a square peg into a circular hole just makes my hairs stand on end.

All volunteers are not scientific, William, and without the volunteers and their taste for credits and competition, no SETI@home project...
Don't forget that please...
Welcome to the real world ;)

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