Observation of CreditNew Impact (2)

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Message 1394352 - Posted: 24 Jul 2013, 20:16:52 UTC
Last modified: 24 Jul 2013, 20:17:41 UTC

The discussion is quite over.

Please close the thread...........

It's a done deal, kitties.

I have lost a few k in RAC..

So what. You have to start dealing with this, cuz it's what's going down now.

Get the F over it, or leave.

Enough is enough.

It is NOT gonna change.

OK, kids?
"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

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Message 1394355 - Posted: 24 Jul 2013, 20:28:54 UTC

I have really lost my patience with you all.

I am one of the top RAC kids on Seti........if you have not noticed.

I lost a little patience when the changes first came down.

I have recovered since.

You all need to get a grip.
The change in RAC awards don't mean shit.

This is all starting to really piss me off.

Not the credits..........the attitudes.

Positions on SeTI vs crunching ability HAVE NOT CHANGED.........

You all feel fu#@#ed? What idiots. ThjH \credits relative to other Seti folks have NOT CHANGED......





"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

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Message 1394363 - Posted: 24 Jul 2013, 20:42:03 UTC

Zzzzzzz
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Message 1394386 - Posted: 24 Jul 2013, 21:30:38 UTC - in response to Message 1394349.  

Then where do you see this ""Flopscounter" (under Task details)" you are talking about. Because I don't see anything in BOINC manager or any of the data driven web pages.

I simply want to know what you are looking at and where.

It is in every result, look for example here:
http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/result.php?resultid=3085140434

(...)
SETI@Home Informational message -9 result_overflow
NOTE: The number of results detected equals the storage space allocated.

Flopcounter: 12763176000.091269

That was used in the last credit system, and was capable of being falsified, hence we're on New Credit where it's not used:

The second credit system

We then switched to the philosophy that credit should be proportional to the FLOPs actually performed by the application. We added API calls to let applications report this. We call this approach "Actual-FLOPs-based".

SETI@home's application allowed counting of FLOPs, and they adopted this system, adding a scaling factor so that average credit per job was the same as the first credit system.

Not all projects could count FLOPs, however. So SETI@home published their average credit per CPU second, and other projects continued to use benchmark-based credit, but multiplied it by a scaling factor to match SETI@home's average.

This system has several problems:

It doesn't address GPUs properly; projects using GPUs have to write custom code.
Project that can't count FLOPs still have device neutrality problems.
It doesn't prevent credit cheating when single replication is used.

And the reason why Seti v7 gives less Credit than v6:

Goals of the new (third) credit system

Completely automated - projects don't have to change code, settings, etc.
Device neutrality
Limited project neutrality: different projects should grant about the same amount of credit per host-hour, averaged over hosts. Projects with GPU apps should grant credit in proportion to the efficiency of the apps. (This means that projects with efficient GPU apps will grant more credit than projects with inefficient apps. That's OK).
Cheat-resistance.


http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/wiki/CreditNew

Once we get GPU apps with improved Autocorrelation code, then we'll get improved Credit per Wu, and because the apps are faster, we'll get more work done, and hence a higher RAC from that too, End of Story.

Claggy
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Message 1394391 - Posted: 24 Jul 2013, 21:45:31 UTC - in response to Message 1394355.  

I have really lost my patience with you all.

I am one of the top RAC kids on Seti........if you have not noticed.

I lost a little patience when the changes first came down.

I have recovered since.

You all need to get a grip.
The change in RAC awards don't mean shit.

This is all starting to really piss me off.

Not the credits..........the attitudes.

Positions on SeTI vs crunching ability HAVE NOT CHANGED.........

You all feel fu#@#ed? What idiots. ThjH \credits relative to other Seti folks have NOT CHANGED......





Hard words, but I can understand you!
But just accept the facts and say "Stop, I don't care anymore" in my eyes is wrong. This way people "who are responsible" (Dr. A. et al. ?) wouldn't feel responsible anymore, they would feel amnestied (-> do what you want to do without explanation and wait, nothing will happen).

Other possibilities (don't take them 100% serious):
1. Founding of SCU (Seti Crunchers Union)
2. Send mass emails to the administrators of the project asking for explanation.
3. ...

Above all: Don't use bad words like s... and don't quit the Project!
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Message 1394410 - Posted: 24 Jul 2013, 22:51:10 UTC - in response to Message 1394391.  
Last modified: 24 Jul 2013, 23:02:39 UTC

Other possibilities (don't take them 100% serious):
1. Founding of SCU (Seti Crunchers Union)
2. Send mass emails to the administrators of the project asking for explanation.
3. ...

Above all: Don't use bad words like s... and don't quit the Project!


#1 would only matter if you were a paid employee--which I am sorry but you're not. You're a volunteer--which puts you in the "Take it or leave it" category.

I'm sorry but #2 is preposterous and will further alienate the staff.

As I stated previously, Dr. Korpela are extremely short both budget & staff-wise so they can either take time to post on the forums and avoid the necessary tech work, or they can work on keeping the servers. Please cut them some slack. Matt does post updates when he can.

Fact is credits don't matter....


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Message 1394447 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 1:32:09 UTC - in response to Message 1394410.  

Other possibilities (don't take them 100% serious):
1. Founding of SCU (Seti Crunchers Union)
2. Send mass emails to the administrators of the project asking for explanation.
3. ...

Above all: Don't use bad words like s... and don't quit the Project!


#1 would only matter if you were a paid employee--which I am sorry but you're not. You're a volunteer--which puts you in the "Take it or leave it" category.

I'm sorry but #2 is preposterous and will further alienate the staff.

As I stated previously, Dr. Korpela are extremely short both budget & staff-wise so they can either take time to post on the forums and avoid the necessary tech work, or they can work on keeping the servers. Please cut them some slack. Matt does post updates when he can.

Fact is credits don't matter....


Yep. I was going to suggest the credit chasers
just take a crayon and add a couple of zeros to their
screen when looking at their rac, but then I figured
that they would start arguing about which color was more
important and didn't.
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Message 1394454 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 2:00:07 UTC

On this emotional subject, at least to a few, there are two scientific projects going on here.
1, the reason most of us are here, SETI.
2, the development and refinement of the distributed computing system, BOINC.
I suspect BOINC gets more university resources than Seti gets. Accept the fact that every SETI work unit is just one more bit of data for Dr. Anderson's project and without his patronage S@H as such would probably not be here.
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Message 1394599 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 7:07:50 UTC - in response to Message 1394410.  

Fact is credits don't matter....

To some.
To others they are everything.
For most it's somewhere between the 2 extremes.

Grant
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Message 1394602 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 7:12:20 UTC

The staff of the project should however stay up in what is said in certain threads.
When a subject activates so much passion and asks so many questions, answers are imperative.
It's the volunteers who make the project and most of those who published in this forum are very involved in the SETI@home adventure.
In my opinion, it's thus very important to answer the justifiable questioning of the volunteers about the new system of credits affectation.
The discussions cannot be in one-way while the project is based on the double sense.
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Message 1394608 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 7:24:09 UTC - in response to Message 1394602.  

The staff of the project should however stay up in what is said in certain threads.
When a subject activates so much passion and asks so many questions, answers are imperative.
It's the volunteers who make the project and most of those who published in this forum are very involved in the SETI@home adventure.
In my opinion, it's thus very important to answer the justifiable questioning of the volunteers about the new system of credits affectation.
The discussions cannot be in one-way while the project is based on the double sense.


The tail does not wag the dog.
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Message 1394613 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 7:47:45 UTC - in response to Message 1394602.  

The staff of the project should however stay up in what is said in certain threads.
When a subject activates so much passion and asks so many questions, answers are imperative.
It's the volunteers who make the project and most of those who published in this forum are very involved in the SETI@home adventure.
In my opinion, it's thus very important to answer the justifiable questioning of the volunteers about the new system of credits affectation.
The discussions cannot be in one-way while the project is based on the double sense.

Here's a quoted reply of mine from another thread.

What would it take to put the credit issue to bed once and for all?

Have you read this CreditNew thread? With particular attention to the messages where people who have direct contact with Dr. David Anderson, who runs both BOINC and Seti@Home, have reported that Dr. Anderson is satisfied that CreditNew is operating as it was designed to operate, and that NO changes to it are planned.

Like it or not, CreditNew is what we have. Dr. Anderson's contact info is available from either the Seti@Home or BOINC homepages. Make your case directly to him. You waste your time complaining about it here.

Yes, some people are being blamed for CreditNew that are totally innocent of the charges.

CreditNew is Dr Anderson's personal pet and no one else other than Dr Anderson has anything to do with it, so there is only 1 person to complain at so please vent an email to that 1 person as complaining here is just plain pointless.


Cheers.

So will you stop fingering the "Staff", as there is only 1 person to take your case to and in this case the "Staff" are just "Staff", see the Boss instead.

Cheers.
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Message 1394616 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 7:54:49 UTC - in response to Message 1394613.  

So will you stop fingering the "Staff", as there is only 1 person to take your case to and in this case the "Staff" are just "Staff", see the Boss instead.

Cheers.

Your answer is rhetorical Wiggo.
You have to seize the substance of the post and not stop on the form.
A staff always has a boss and it's to him to guide the work of his team.
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Message 1394627 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 9:16:53 UTC - in response to Message 1394616.  

So will you stop fingering the "Staff", as there is only 1 person to take your case to and in this case the "Staff" are just "Staff", see the Boss instead.

Cheers.

Your answer is rhetorical Wiggo.
You have to seize the substance of the post and not stop on the form.
A staff always has a boss and it's to him to guide the work of his team.

It would just be nice if the right person is blamed here and I guess others can supply links to the development forums where even the "Staff" questioned the science behind CreditNew (a few have been provided before), but CreditNew is Dr Anderson's pet project (he came up with it and only he controls it, he may even be the only person to understand it) and that was the end of the story when it was 1st introduced (nearly everyone's RAC fell by nearly the same amount back then too).

Cheers.
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Message 1394686 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 14:33:12 UTC - in response to Message 1394447.  

Other possibilities (don't take them 100% serious):
1. Founding of SCU (Seti Crunchers Union)
2. Send mass emails to the administrators of the project asking for explanation.
3. ...

Above all: Don't use bad words like s... and don't quit the Project!


#1 would only matter if you were a paid employee--which I am sorry but you're not. You're a volunteer--which puts you in the "Take it or leave it" category.

I'm sorry but #2 is preposterous and will further alienate the staff.

As I stated previously, Dr. Korpela are extremely short both budget & staff-wise so they can either take time to post on the forums and avoid the necessary tech work, or they can work on keeping the servers. Please cut them some slack. Matt does post updates when he can.

Fact is credits don't matter....


Yep. I was going to suggest the credit chasers
just take a crayon and add a couple of zeros to their
screen when looking at their rac, but then I figured
that they would start arguing about which color was more
important and didn't.

Oooohhh.
Kitties like crayons.
They are rather hard to erase from my screen though.
"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

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Message 1394848 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 19:47:34 UTC - in response to Message 1394616.  

<snip>
A staff always has a boss and it's to him to guide the work of his team.


And why do you think that 'the boss' isn't guiding
the work of 'his' team to 'his' satisfaction?

Remember 'he' is under no requirement to perform
to your satisfaction, only to the satisfaction of
those he works for, and in no way is that anybody
here.

Unless you sign his paycheck and/or have the ability
to have him removed from the project and replaced by
someone else your's and everyone else's opinion means
little.
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Message 1394856 - Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 19:56:55 UTC - in response to Message 1394616.  
Last modified: 25 Jul 2013, 20:30:07 UTC

Your answer is rhetorical Wiggo.
You have to seize the substance of the post and not stop on the form.
A staff always has a boss and it's to him to guide the work of his team.


Ok please stop. DA runs the BOINC platform which grants credits overall not Seti..maybe you should go to the BOINC forums. Dr Korpela has no control over DA's actions.

Either post here or please email DA directly.

Thank you


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Message 1395065 - Posted: 26 Jul 2013, 5:29:02 UTC - in response to Message 1394856.  

Your answer is rhetorical Wiggo.
You have to seize the substance of the post and not stop on the form.
A staff always has a boss and it's to him to guide the work of his team.


Ok please stop. DA runs the BOINC platform which grants credits overall not Seti..maybe you should go to the BOINC forums. Dr Korpela has no control over DA's actions.

Either post here or please email DA directly.

Thank you

With all the respect I owe you, Blurf, how you permit yourself to stop a discussion ?
This is an open thread and the rules relating to the conduct in the SETI@home forums have not been violated.
What are you doing for freedom of expression ?
Moreover, my words have absolutely no libelous and I answered to Wiggo.
I did not more plan to open myself on the subject but I wished to answer you.
Fortunately, this kind of discussion can exist...
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Message 1395086 - Posted: 26 Jul 2013, 6:39:18 UTC - in response to Message 1394686.  

Kitties has ruff tungs. Just use tuna
flavored Crayons. Or would liver flavor
produce a higher ROC? <removal of Crayon>

And under those circumstances would MBs
<meat base> be better than APs <anchovy paste>?
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Message 1395580 - Posted: 27 Jul 2013, 13:54:04 UTC - in response to Message 1395065.  


With all the respect I owe you, Blurf, how you permit yourself to stop a discussion ?
This is an open thread and the rules relating to the conduct in the SETI@home forums have not been violated.
What are you doing for freedom of expression ?
Moreover, my words have absolutely no libelous and I answered to Wiggo.
I did not more plan to open myself on the subject but I wished to answer you.
Fortunately, this kind of discussion can exist...


The thread is still unlocked--I didn't stop any discussion. I don't have that ability.

I am simply telling you that there is a more effective manner to express your concerns about CreditNew to the right person--and posting in these forums isn't the way.


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Message boards : Number crunching : Observation of CreditNew Impact (2)


 
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