Its a matter of principle. In the real world (which very few in this project seem to live in) if somebody - say for instance your employer wanted you to carry on working just as hard as you were before only now for 50% less pay. Would you do it? Of course your would not and this is exactly same. Our credit has been cut with no democratic vote to ask would we even mind.

Actually, in the real world with example SAS (Scandinavian Airlines), the employees did get a cut in their pay resently, but granted it was "only" 15% and not 50%. In the real world, with the choise between a 15% cut or the company going broke so won't have any work at all and small chances to get other work, my guess is many would accept the 15% cut.


As for SETI@home, they've never paid you by the hour but instead by #wu's done.


To make an analogy, let's say BrickMoverInterGalactic (BMIG) employs personell to move bricks from A to B on MilkyWayPlanet#456 by a route it's only possible to walk. Also, BMIG doesn't give the employees anything to carry the bricks in but only a pair of gloves. A few of the employees comes up with a plan, and uses a bucket to move 4 bricks at once, where the bucket exactly fits 4 bricks.

Meaning, employees using the default method transport example 1 brick/hour from A to B, and get paid 1000 InterGalacticCurrency (IGC) per brick and 24000 IGC per day.
The employees using the bucket transports 4 bricks/hour from A to B, and also gets paid 1000 IGC per brick but due to more bricks is paid 96000 IGC per day.


After some time, planet#98765 in the Andromeda Galaxy also wants some bricks moved, and hires BMIG to do the work. All employees is moved to the new location, and should now transport bricks from C to D where it takes 2x as long to move bricks from C to D compared to from A to B. At the same time Andromedians uses different-sized bricks. Also, BMIG now in addition to gloves supplies a method to move 4 Andromedian bricks at once.

Meaning, employees using the default method transports 4 bricks/2 hours from C to D. To keep the pay similar between planet#456 and planet#98765, BMIG still pays 24000 IGC per day to employees using the default method, but due to different-sized bricks is only paying 500 IGC per Andromedian brick.

Some employees still tries to use a bucket instead, but due to the different size on the Andromedian bricks, a bucket takes 5 such bricks at once, with some empty space between bricks.

The employees using the bucket transports 5 bricks/2 hours from C to D, and also gets paid 500 IGC per Andromedian brick. The pay per day is 30000 IGC.


Meaning, employees using the default method gets 24000 IGC per day regardless of location, while employees using a bucket gets less paid per day moving Andromedian bricks than MilkyWay bricks.


1: Do you think the employees using a bucket should still be paid 96000 IGC per day by BrickMoverInterGalactic, even they're not so effective moving Andromedian bricks?
2: Should BrickMoverInterGalactic at the same time start paying 76800 IGC per day to employees using the default method?

3: Should BrickMoverInterGalactic continue paying 1000 IGC per brick, even the bricks has different size?

4: Should BrickMoverInterGalactic instead of paying per brick start paying a fixed amount per hour, meaning all employees would get 24000 IGC per day even if they start using a bucket what gets more moved in the same amount of time?

If you answered "yes" to question #4, would you expect employees to continue making clever moves to move more bricks at once?

If you answered "yes" to any of questions #1 - #3, do you expect BrickMoverInterGalactic to continue existing after one year, or would you instead expect they're out of business either due to going broke due to too much paid to their employees or due to no-one hires them any longer due to their much too high costs?


If you answered "no" to all questions #1 - #4, why would you want SETI@home to work differently than BrickMoverInterGalactic?

---

"I make so many mistakes. But then just think of all the mistakes I don't make, although I might."

It always strikes me as kind of annoying when folks can not be bothered to string a few words into a sentence and simply post "+1". Is it laziness or an educational issue ?

+1

+2

LOL...

OK, so does that make you half as lazy, or twice as annoying? :-D

It always strikes me as kind of annoying when folks can not be bothered to string a few words into a sentence and simply post "+1". Is it laziness or an educational issue ?

+1

Just as it strikes me as annoying when a person replies and then quotes after, which makes me think "is this person a bit backwards?", but then most of us can live with it even though it can be frustrating.

Anyway there will be plenty of us doing the science whether you want to go on strike or not for better pay. :-P

Anyhow back to crunching.

Cheers.

Crap, if they paid me well enough, I might just be able to buy that Seti toaster some have dreamed of...
I know I have.

I recently got a new toaster. One side of it doesn't seem to work right all the time. In that you push it down and it just pops back up like it is done. So you have to hold it half way until the coils warm up and then can press it down to lock it for normal operation. Other times it will lock down and then pop up in the middle for under done toast.
I was going to return it, but I normally only make 2 slices of toast, instead of 4, & the other side works normally.
Based on its random behavior I have started calling it my BOINC toaster.

Creditnew has issues. Some project admins have decided not to implement it due to the issues. The creator of it admits it has issues & has, at one point, asked if anyone had any ideas on how to fix the issues.
Since it has not been changed I can only surmise that no one has made a good enough suggestion on how to change the credit system.

---

SETI@home classic workunits: 93,865 CPU time: 863,447 hours
Join the [url=http://tinyurl.com/8y46zvu]BP6/VP6 User Group[

It always strikes me as kind of annoying when folks can not be bothered to string a few words into a sentence and simply post "+1". Is it laziness or an educational issue ?

+1

Just as it strikes me as annoying when a person replies and then quotes after, which makes me think "is this person a bit backwards?", but then most of us can live with it even though it can be frustrating.

Anyway there will be plenty of us doing the science whether you want to go on strike or not for better pay. :-P

Anyhow back to crunching.

Cheers.

Crap, if they paid me well enough, I might just be able to buy that Seti toaster some have dreamed of...
I know I have.

I recently got a new toaster. One side of it doesn't seem to work right all the time. In that you push it down and it just pops back up like it is done. So you have to hold it half way until the coils warm up and then can press it down to lock it for normal operation. Other times it will lock down and then pop up in the middle for under done toast.

Oh, you DO have a Seti toaster........Looks like it must be the Dr. A. signature version.
Does it emboss his sig on the toast?
Is the toasting doneness random?
I wonder....
What would a D.A. breakfast be like...
Eggs over WHAT?

Dang it. How do I get MINE????

---

"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

Its a matter of principle. In the real world (which very few in this project seem to live in) if somebody - say for instance your employer wanted you to carry on working just as hard as you were before only now for 50% less pay. Would you do it? Of course your would not and this is exactly same. Our credit has been cut with no democratic vote to ask would we even mind.

And for the benefit of any others who may read this discussion for pleasure or enlightenment, I'd like to address the OTHER Gross Conceptual Error in his argument -

Our credit has been cut with no democratic vote to ask would we even mind.

As Eric has stated elsewhere, the drop in Credit granted was an artifact of CreditNew, not a purposeful act by the Seti@Home developers. An unintended consequence - Murphy strikes again.

And even though both Eric and the Lunatics developers listen and respond to what is said here on the Forums, this project is most defintiely NOT run as a democracy - nor should it be. It is a science project, and the science must take precedence.

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Donald
Infernal Optimist / Submariner, retired

Its a matter of principle. In the real world (which very few in this project seem to live in) if somebody - say for instance your employer wanted you to carry on working just as hard as you were before only now for 50% less pay. Would you do it? Of course your would not and this is exactly same. Our credit has been cut with no democratic vote to ask would we even mind.

And for the benefit of any others who may read this discussion for pleasure or enlightenment, I'd like to address the OTHER Gross Conceptual Error in his argument -

Our credit has been cut with no democratic vote to ask would we even mind.

As Eric has stated elsewhere, the drop in Credit granted was an artifact of CreditNew, not a purposeful act by the Seti@Home developers. An unintended consequence - Murphy strikes again.

And even though both Eric and the Lunatics developers listen and respond to what is said here on the Forums, this project is most defintiely NOT run as a democracy - nor should it be. It is a science project, and the science must take precedence.

The science is just fine.

It's just the creds that are in the dumpster.
The science has actually improved.

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"Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once."

Its a matter of principle. In the real world (which very few in this project seem to live in) if somebody - say for instance your employer wanted you to carry on working just as hard as you were before only now for 50% less pay. Would you do it? Of course your would not and this is exactly same. Our credit has been cut with no democratic vote to ask would we even mind.

Although I've been away from BOINC these past few quarters and only recently restarted - thru all the recent developments (migration & v7 release "creditnew-problems", etc.) I was trying to make up "lost-credits".

I've since reached my goal of 6.5m (6.8m presently) with ~100 AP-tasks pending validation, using this single host.

So... the smarter thing to do here @SETI (credit-wise) is to go crunch AP-tasks exclusively, pays better (now) and help reduce Sten-Arne's bp. :)


I'll be back a few weeks later, hopefully AP-tasks will still be aplenty!

---

terencewee*
Sicituradastra.

Since it has not been changed I can only surmise that no one has made a good enough suggestion on how to change the credit system.

One of the suggestions was to go back to the previous system which worked very well except for a couple of minor cases.
It would have been better to go back to that, and work on it for those minor issues than perservere with something that is so seriously flawed.

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Grant
Darwin NT

All right, even I am ready to jump on this bandwagon. The amount of credit we're getting per WU is ridiculous, especially since it takes much longer to crunch these new v7's. I know they're supposed to take longer to crunch and all that, but increase the credits earned to *at least* what we got before the v7 roll out.

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It looks like Lionel might have overestimated the percentage that V7 credits are of those allocated for V6

On my main rig, for a V6 unit that took between 500 and 600 seconds to run I received circa 140 credits. On the same rig, with no changes to the hardware, for the same run times, V7 is paying around 35 credits (what we used get for a 2 minute "shorty").

That is a 75% drop !!

We were assured that thing would return to "normal" after a couple of weeks when "the system had stabilised". Somehow, it appears the system is stabilising on the wrong side of the "S" curve.

T.A.

We were assured that thing would return to "normal" after a couple of weeks when "the system had stabilised". Somehow, it appears the system is stabilising on the wrong side of the "S" curve.

Given the magnitude of the changes, it's the same as someone taking up the project from scratch. And given the much longer run times & so the much longer estimated completion times (even longer for a WU to time out & be re-issued), stabilisation will take even longer than it did previously.
I'm guessing around 2 months.

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Grant
Darwin NT

We were assured that thing would return to "normal" after a couple of weeks when "the system had stabilised". Somehow, it appears the system is stabilising on the wrong side of the "S" curve.

Given the magnitude of the changes, it's the same as someone taking up the project from scratch. And given the much longer run times & so the much longer estimated completion times (even longer for a WU to time out & be re-issued), stabilisation will take even longer than it did previously.
I'm guessing around 2 months.

In one of the v7 rollout threads, either William or Richard were guesstimating 5-6 weeks for credit and RAC to stabilize.

---

Donald
Infernal Optimist / Submariner, retired

hi there
my english is not good enough to explain my idea, so it's better to write it in german.
Das Credit-system kennt keine Prozessorerweiterungen wie SSE... oder AVX
Dem Creditsystem ist nicht bekannt, dass Computer mit solchen Erweiterungen schneller, und effizienter rechnen, wenn die Anwendungen sie unterstützen.
Mussten mit einem alten Prozessor zwei Berechnungen durchgeführt werden, geht das heute mit aktuellen CPUs mit einer. <
Dann noch der Unterschied 32 vs. 64 bit....
Es werden Esel mit Rennpferden verglichen
Es ist eine 'Normalisierung' nötig, die den den Geschwindigkeitsvorteil der Prozessorerweiterungen beschreibt, und die Rechenleistung entsprechend anpasst.

Wie viele flops würde die Berechnung einer WU benötigen, wenn die CPU keine 'modernen' Erweiterungen hat, und wie viele mit Erweiterungen?
Wenn das berücksichtigt wird, passen die Credits auch wieder, und alle sind glücklich!

Das creditsystem hat die Prozessorentwicklung verschlafen, und berücksichtigt sie nicht.
oder seh ich das falsch

Abgesehen davon kotzt mich die Arroganz der Verantworlichen an!
SETI@Home wäre nichts ohne seine Teilnehmer. Respekt, wurde ja schon mehrfach angesprochen, der fehlt. Seti sollte sich nicht als Gönner hinstellen, dem die User für die Arbeit danken müssen. Seti kann ohne User nix, gar nix, man sollte dort mal überlegen, wie weit man ohne die Beteiligung wäre, oder was für ein Rechenzentrum sie haben müssten um die Arbeit selbst zu erledigen.

maybe anyone translates this

Das creditsystem hat die Prozessorentwicklung verschlafen, und berücksichtigt sie nicht.
oder seh ich das falsch

Ja, das siehst du falsch.
Wrong assumption.

The creditNew mechanism is much more complicated and SIMD instructions were available when it was implemented.

---

With each crime and every kindness we birth our future.

Abgesehen davon kotzt mich die Arroganz der Verantworlichen an!
SETI@Home wäre nichts ohne seine Teilnehmer. Respekt, wurde ja schon mehrfach angesprochen, der fehlt. Seti sollte sich nicht als Gönner hinstellen, dem die User für die Arbeit danken müssen. Seti kann ohne User nix, gar nix, man sollte dort mal überlegen, wie weit man ohne die Beteiligung wäre, oder was für ein Rechenzentrum sie haben müssten um die Arbeit selbst zu erledigen.

Schön gesagt!

Think on something... At least on the others projects i ever participate i never see complais about the credit issue like you see in SETI.

All others projects are wrong and SETI is the only right? Or is the opositive?

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Think on something... At least on the others projects i ever participate i never see complais about the credit issue like you see in SETI.

All others projects are wrong and SETI is the only right? Or is the opositive?

This is always a one-sided discussion.

You hear from people who feel that credit is too low (either individually, or for a project as a whole). But you very rarely hear from people who say that credit is too high - and I've certainly never seen a busy thread like this discussing 'credits have gone up too much'.

and I've certainly never seen a busy thread like this discussing 'credits have gone up too much'.

I'd like the opportunity.

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Grant
Darwin NT

and I've certainly never seen a busy thread like this discussing 'credits have gone up too much'.

I'd like the opportunity.

+ 1

I remain on my point, if "credit means nothing" why make the comunity feels bad about that?

<edit> Did you ever see anyone who say, i have to much memory? my host is to fast? my HD is to big? It´s the humman nature, we only look what we miss.

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Think on something... At least on the others projects i ever participate i never see complais about the credit issue like you see in SETI.

All others projects are wrong and SETI is the only right? Or is the opositive?

This is always a one-sided discussion.

You hear from people who feel that credit is too low (either individually, or for a project as a whole). But you very rarely hear from people who say that credit is too high - and I've certainly never seen a busy thread like this discussing 'credits have gone up too much'.

One thing I've noticed is running v7 MB & Astropulse on my old Cuda cards is about equal now. With v6 MB the old cards would produce more credits running MB. I'm not sure if this is a coincidence or not. The bad part is the old cards are barely twice as fast as my CPUs when running Astropulse...