In theory anyone that receives a salary or wage works for a living, but that is not the same as "working" class. Traditionally there used to be 6 social classes, based on Education, family background, jobs, income, lifestyle, and social standing.

Royalty - Kings, Queens, Princes
Aristocracy - Lords, Ladies, Viscounts
Upper class - Judges, Chairman, MD's, Directors
Middle class - Bank managers, Senior managers
Lower Middle class - white collar workers, junior management
Working class - blue collar & manual workers

Under the old system me, Bernie, and his dad would likely have been Lower middle. I always thought that there should have been two working class grades, Working class and technical working class. i.e. working class = labourers, technical working class, skilled machinists and draughtmen. And in any case it is quite normal to progress to a higher class, as you get promotion, improve yourself and further your career.

These days we also have Social grades

A - High managerial, professional
B - Intermediate managerial and professional
C1 - Supervisory, junior managerial
C2 - Skilled manual workers
D - Semi & unskilled manual workers
E - State pensioners and unemployed

And of course the latest survey with 7 classes . Here is a link to test yourself. I came out as Technical middle class, which I would have said was too high, and should be more near the traditional rating. classes As Bernie says, these days class is really irrelevant anyway. I know a local builder who has a big house, nice car and is never short of money, but is a total uncouth oaf. I also know a lovely couple in their 60's who have a small terrace house as neat as a pin, beautifully tended front and rear gardens, well educated, that survive on state pensions and a small occupational one. In terms of wealth and possessions the builder beats them hands down, in terms of "class" they clearly win out.

I also think that the circles that you feel happy and confident to socialise in is just as important as anything else. I've never met any royalty and probably never will, but I have chatted to a Baroness. I regularly come into contact with JP's, Mayors, MP's, Bank Managers, retired Directors etc and am totally at ease. I can also quite happily chat to a couple of brickies from the local council estate over the pub. Me, I'll chat to anyone over a drink!

Nick is right in that who you know is sometimes more important than what you know. If you went to Oxbridge or Eton, it does open doors for you in the old boys network, that are closed to others. These days it is seen as elitist, but cast your mind back to Bletchley Park in WWII where most of the cleverest minds were almost exclusively recruited from the Cambridge University circuit. Not only did they have fine minds, but they were judged as having the "right" family background and being the "right sort of chap" for that work. And by god it worked to, shortened the war by 2 years and saved countless lives.

Double barrelled surnames these days have lost all the previous cachet they might have had, and are just seen as totally passe. John Smith gets married to Lucy Brown and they decide to become the Smith-Browns because they think it looks posh on cheque books. Meanwhile everyone else thinks of them as a total pair of pratts! And just wait until their kids get to school!

Bernie, I suspect we will never be a classless society but one thing that has
changed over the years is the way class is defined today. Up and too quite
recently your level of wealth went a very long way in setting your class level.
Now this has much changed because so many of the upper classes have not got the
level of wealth like they had years ago but find themselves equally matched in
numbers by those of the working class who do have superior wealth to them. Today
it is more of a social connection/education background that's sets your class
classification....but it really does help though if you can talk with a plum in
your mouth and adopt a double-barrel surname. My favourite quote, "Those who
talk with plum in mouth often think with prune in head"©

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The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Unless one is born with a silver spoon in their mouth, one has to WORK for a living!

My father worked till he was 65 as a commercial traveler, then with money saved he brought a small shop and worked hard for 15 years till he retired and would be highly insulted to be called "working class"

I spent 22 years working for BT. For the last 12 years I worked as an engineer, I also own the flat I live in and I would also be horrified to be called "working class" as I do not believe in class, so it's a matter of perspective. Means nothing unless you care about a totally worthless system.

I just know I am gonna love the reply, oh by the way I have red x these posts as you should not really mention places on a public forum.

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PLAY NICE FOLKS...Or KEEP IT OFF of the Boards!!!

Wasn't it the English that labelled people & made fortunes on the stage by ridiculing them? Jocks, Taffy's, Paddy's as well as other derogatory labels for other nationalities not suited to be mentioned here?

I believe it was mainly the British troops in WWII that labelled people in that way including froggies for the French, and others best not mentioned.

So labelling me childish seems to be a little premature don't you think Taffy? I believe the English still refer to Welshmen as Taffy's!

Yes they do as do most other people as well. It comes from the Welsh river Taff which flows through Cardiff, and the nickname has been in use since the 1750's. As I have mentioned before, my parents were evacuated to North Wales during WWII, and I was born there at the end of the war. We re-located to back to London when I was 6 months old, and I have lived there ever since. My family background on both sides is mainly English, apart from a great great great Grandfather on my dads side who apparently was a lay Preacher in County Mayo in the early 1800's. If it amuses to call me a taffy I have no particular objection, there is a tenuous connection.

BTW, I was at Argon Road again this morning with the same officers on duty in the area. When they saw the above post they remarked: -

Is that guy for real? Now you gotta keep them laughing by giving a cracking laughable reply to this post so that I can show them it on Wednesday morning!

FYI, both officers were White & English & just before I drove off site, one remarked: - We have to deal with all sorts but guys like him we'd love to take behind the barracks. I didn't stop laughing until I hit the M11.

As before I would be quite interested to speak to these officers either in person, via letter, or email. Perhaps when you see them on Wednesday you could get some details or arrange something. I'm assuming that the location is the Lea valley Trading Estate, which I could get to fairly easily via the M25.

It would be remarkable if I was. That just shows again how little you know about local and National government.

How naïve of you.

Any PM's diary is full up to 18 months ahead with International meetings, foreign trips, PMQ, Cabinet, receptions at No.10, general visits etc which take precedence. Any family breaks have to be slotted in where they can, and will have been planned months in advance. In addition wherever the PM is in the world, he will have 24/7 instant access to other world leaders, the White House, and the Cabinet back home. He will also receive daily briefings on home and world affairs, some holiday. Given his current location he could be back in the UK within 6 hours if necessary. Of course his enemies will sieze this opportunity to denigrate him, and leading it will be the Mail. Personally, weighing up all the odds, I wouldn't have gone, I'd have taken a few days off at Chequers instead, but I am sure he would have taken advice on it.

gotta give you that one

Don't be so naive, if you were to be told that they'd have to shoot you afterwards!

Very melodramatic

We really are giving our working class predjucies and chips on shoulders full rein this weekend aren't we?

how quaintly British that is....

Working class? Try these for size.....

Growing up in racist Britain



Not much has changed then in 50 years, has it!

Wasn't it the English that labelled people & made fortunes on the stage by ridiculing them? Jocks, Taffy's, Paddy's as well as other derogatory labels for other nationalities not suited to be mentioned here?

So labelling me childish seems to be a little premature don't you think Taffy? I believe the English still refer to Welshmen as Taffy's!

You demand to be known as an Englishman so accept that many still see you as a racist nation, until that changes for the better, accept it in good grace like the rest of us that were labelled!

BTW, I was at Argon Road again this morning with the same officers on duty in the area. When they saw the above post they remarked: -

Is that guy for real? Now you gotta keep them laughing by giving a cracking laughable reply to this post so that I can show them it on Wednesday morning!

FYI, both officers were White & English & just before I drove off site, one remarked: - We have to deal with all sorts but guys like him we'd love to take behind the barracks. I didn't stop laughing until I hit the M11.

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Thank God then that you're not serving on the bench!

It would be remarkable if I was. That just shows again how little you know about local and National government.

AGE REQUIREMENT
You must at least 18 years old to apply. Magistrates retire from the bench at the age of 70 and the Lord Chancellor normally expects a period of five years’ service before retirement. He will not generally appoint anyone who is aged over 65.

..Wish You was here

Any PM's diary is full up to 18 months ahead with International meetings, foreign trips, PMQ, Cabinet, receptions at No.10, general visits etc which take precedence. Any family breaks have to be slotted in where they can, and will have been planned months in advance. In addition wherever the PM is in the world, he will have 24/7 instant access to other world leaders, the White House, and the Cabinet back home. He will also receive daily briefings on home and world affairs, some holiday. Given his current location he could be back in the UK within 6 hours if necessary. Of course his enemies will sieze this opportunity to denigrate him, and leading it will be the Mail. Personally, weighing up all the odds, I wouldn't have gone, I'd have taken a few days off at Chequers instead, but I am sure he would have taken advice on it.

For Christ's Sake, just WTF has been going on in government departments since 9/11?

Don't be so naive, if you were to be told that they'd have to shoot you afterwards!

"Study in Depth? Really? Just how many academics with no understanding of what goes on in the "real" world will be involved? How many quangos will be set up to study this in depth? Next thing we'll see is Del-boy running the country via smartphone from his holiday hideaway in Bermuda!

We really are giving our working class predjucies and chips on shoulders full rein this weekend aren't we?

I can see there is no arguing with you.

Exactly Bernie, as I commented earlier. When he is in this sort of cantankerous mood, there is just no point in trying to hold any sort of sensible conversation with him. You can tell he is out of his depth and on the back foot when he resorts to childish name tags like Taffy. Probably something to do with the full moon last Friday I expect, or given his age, hormones. But I will say that although I detest the flamboyant headlines and their style of reporting, the Mail site is a good source of current news stories, provided you leave out the Mails slant on it. But simply quoting other peoples articles with a couple of sarcastic comments, is not what most people would class as adult discussion.

With all the posts I've made that contain links, I think you'll find that its evenly spread out amongst the many that are available. To home in on one like you & Taffy seem to do all the time, seems to be a petty attempt at labelling.

Nothing new then is there?

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Only goes to show what your mind focuses on when reading online.

Oh my what a pathetic response!

A third of the page is given over to the sidebar, it's a bit difficult NOT to notice it.

Your making excuses for the gutter press you use as you main source of "news"

I can see there is no arguing with you.

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Only goes to show what your mind focuses on when reading online.

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The er "Mail online" again, just look at the right hand bar to see what they really care about, and it is NOT factual reporting.

Saving the best for last! Hollywood goddess Uma Thurman stuns in classic satin gown on the red carpet at the Cannes Film Festival closing ceremony

When flip flops just don't cut it! Tulisa gets it ALL wrong at Marbella spray party as she teams tiny white bikini with skyscraper stiletto heels

Now that's va va voom: Nicole Scherzinger stuns in her racy cutaway dress at the Monaco Grand Prix

The Bieber salute! Justin pulls up his top to show off his washboard abs AGAIN... as his garish new leopard print car is revealed

And this

as Britain faced its biggest terror crisis since the 7/7 bombings in 2005.

Biggest, how about "only". I assume the police and security services can operate without the prime minster for week or so? Obviously Ibiza doesn't have any modern communications that mean he could be in touch with however he needs instantly.

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TERFOR

"The source stressed that Mr Cameron was ‘aware of the importance of avoiding a kneejerk reaction,’ and added: ‘This new group will study the issue in great depth before acting."

For Christ's Sake, just WTF has been going on in government departments since 9/11?

"Study in Depth? Really? Just how many academics with no understanding of what goes on in the "real" world will be involved?

How many quangos will be set up to study this in depth?

Next thing we'll see is Del-boy running the country via smartphone from his holiday hideaway in Bermuda!

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Continuing the discussion here as its detracting from the Europe thread.

1372237

Thank God then that you're not serving on the bench!

So you would prefer this type of humour....Wish You was here

What a beautiful display of "Lead by Example"!

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Political correctness gone mad....

...fortunately, it's not us, but the Yanks!

Hey Yanks, get your own broadcasting in order before you complain about another country's!

Discriminate, Discrminate

So that's the type of oddballs you have in your colleges & universities, no wonder the US is at odds with itself!

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At present we cover such threats by fast response units of specially trained officers.

Yeah, like Wednesday... 16 minutes!

When we had a Police Force there were more than sufficient boots on the ground!

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We should step back and look calmly at the situation before making any decision.

Of course we should, and a sensible approach. But like any other typical bulletin board you will always get people that will immediately react emotionally to any situation, out of anger, before calming down and thinking rationally, and sometimes not even then. That is the reason they are active in forums in the first place, because they can rant and rave in anonymity, without risking a punch on the nose in public, and calling attention to themselves..

I see that they have now arrested 5 suspects for conspiracy to murder, so possibly they may have wiped out a terror cell that could have killed even more. Another reason why the original two were incapacitated rather than killed. As I said before dead men can't give any information. Apart from which their followers would have claimed via propaganda that they died for their cause. 30 years in prison, in solitary confinement to avoid them being beaten up, is a far better deterrent. It is now known that both men were Nigerian, one of the most corrupt countries in the world, a perfect background for fledgling fanatics.

Personally I would rather live in a country where only the fanatics are armed than be caught in the crossfire.

+1

Any chance of you staying down there amongst the rest of the carrot crunchers as you don't seem to understand your own language!

I might do one day when I fully retire, south Hampshire is a pleasant enough place.

I clearly stated All active personnel What don't you understand about that?

What I understand is that "active personnel" means what it says, serving soldiers currently enlisted in the armed forces, whether abroad or stationed back at barracks. "On duty" means wearing their uniform, carrying weapons, and other kit as required. Off duty means wearing mufti and relaxing with their families. If all soldiers were armed off duty how long would it be before a 3 year old played with daddies gun when mummy wasn't looking, and there is a tragic accident.

We have had armed soldiers outside Buckingham palace and other significant buildings for many years as a matter of course, and the public are happy to accept that. They also accept that when to arm soldiers is a matter for the commanding officers to decide, depending upon operational necessity. As for the police, they themselves say they no not want to be armed on the streets, and the public agree. At present we cover such threats by fast response units of specially trained officers.

So no thoughts for the victims then? How nice!

Sorry not sure what you mean, victims, all of us are potential victims because we live in a free society, I do not want to see police and service personal armed to create more "victims". No one can say that being armed would have made any difference at Woolwich

You know more legally armed personal is the slippery slope the fanatics, and some in government want!

We should step back and look calmly at the situation before making any decision.

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So no thoughts for the victims then? How nice!

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The day all active personnel in the armed forces are required to carry a side arm will be the day we take the first step down the road the fanatics are desperately trying to push us. Hopefully we will remain calm, we are mostly not a nation to react without thinking.

The fanatics know that with all serving personal armed there will be mistakes and innocent people will be killed. Which is what they want. What then, an armed policeman mistakenly shoots an armed serviceman who he thought was the bad guy.

A lot has been made of service men and women being Trained Professionals so I assume our police are not, as they have on several occasions shot and killed unarmed suspects, of course our Trained Professionals won't make mistakes. The fact that a lot of soldiers go on to commit very violent crimes probably due to PTSD makes even more sense to have them armed 24/7

Personally I would rather live in a country where only the fanatics are armed than be caught in the crossfire.

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