You can work to change the law, but you don't pick up arms and wage war on others as long as civil or diplomatic channels are open. If you do, you are a terrorist, by definition. No matter how frustrating, no matter how glacial the pace, you are never justified in taking up arms as long as another option is available.

Exactly, but we do know that many people operate under the shoot first and ask questions later dogma. There is also what is referred to as "within the spirit of the law". i.e. it may not expressly forbid a particular point, but it was obviously meant to cater for it.

We must remember Gary that anonymous forums like Seti are always going to attract the extremists and anarchists amongst us. Luckily we are not as bad as the .alt boards were. .alt boards

Oh and p.s. - I don't buy stolen or dodgy goods ether. Three activities that I am involved in require CRB checks, which are regularly renewed.

A certain two posters appear to advocate the pursuit of business and 'The Rule of Law' in all forms without scruples and without morals or any sense of 'fairness'...

Of course the rule of law applies, just don't forget this is one of the rules of law. Otherwise we have an anarchy of lawlessness and disorder, where it is every man for himself; one where the Japanese whalers would self justify in using deadly force to repel Sea Shepard. Such an anarchy is without any morals or scruples, but you call for it saying it has more than the rule of law.

If you don't agree with the law tough, it is the law, you must obey it. Just because you don't agree that there should be a law preventing you from taking that nice diamond ring from the store because you really, really want it, you still must obey the law. The same applies to a copyright that prevents you from downloading a journal.

You can work to change the law, but you don't pick up arms and wage war on others as long as civil or diplomatic channels are open. If you do, you are a terrorist, by definition. No matter how frustrating, no matter how glacial the pace, you are never justified in taking up arms as long as another option is available.

Talk about lack of morals and scruples ...

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She was glad as she would have had to pay it back.

Perhaps in 1976, IIRC today's labor laws forbid that.

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Chuck in the occasional bit of pillage, and I'm your man :-)

Well when you get there, let us know, for I can't find any place like that here on this planet!

In a monastery, nunnery, kibbutz, or such?...

Then find or make your own suitably undisturbed island... :-)

Until the latest Vikings then come to rampage... :-(


Further thoughts later...

Keep searchin',
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Well when you get there, let us know, for I can't find any place like that here on this planet!

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I think its how you are raised also. I was taught that one worked for what they wanted. You didnt steal and you didnt buy stolen goods.

When I was newly made Sgt. In the Air Force with a wife and two kids. Money was real tight. Christmas dinner was fried eggs and toast. But when I cashed my paycheck the casher gave me back twice the amount my check was for. Now $180.00 was a lot of mney back in 1976. My wife wanted to keep it. I took the money back in the bank and told the cashier she overpaid me. She was glad as she would have had to pay it back. I was glad as I had no guilt and my wife was mad. ( Now the EX wife )

I dont download free music unless the site says it is free. ( like Itunes ) I dont buy pirated copys of movies either.

Guess Im old fashioned.

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[/quote]

Old James

Good, bad, nastily ugly, or just the way of the modern world?

It takes a thick skin to survive in today's modern world Martin, and more than ever as time passes on. Would I be right in thinking that you are alluding in the main part to counterfeit or bootleg videos, DVD's etc and also rogue Internet sites giving free downloading? If so the problem is one of copyright isn't it. People earn their living from copyrighting their work whether it be music, art, graphics or whatever. When that is sidestepped, not only is it illegal, it robs them of their rightful income.

The problem arises because of human nature in wanting to get something for nothing or on the cheap. Why pay £15 for Skyfall on DVD when you can pick up a "dodgy" copy for a fiver with no questions asked. Why pay the same for a music DVD when you can download the tracks for free from some sources. It has been estimated that in Asia alone, 90% of all MS software is couterfeit and unlicenced. If this wasn't the case, and necessarily allowed for by MS in its pricing, Windows 8 could probably be sold for £20 each and they would still make a handsome profit.

Lawyers are cashing in on the back of the compensation culture of todays society with no win - no fee offers, they get their money from the winner claiming back legal fees from the loser in court cases. And yes, people with vested interests try to lobby the legislators to change or modify laws to suit their advantage.

The days of one book for the taxman and one for you have largely gone, as HMRC can and do, make random checks on businesses, although usually after something nudges them to take a closer look. Clever accountants can also "re-arrange" company finances so that "allowable losses" appear on the balance sheet, thus reducing the tax bill. There are other ways to reduce the Corporation tax bill as well. All quite within the rules, and comes under the heading of avoidance, not evasion, which is illegal.

Is it all moral? well that's the 64 thousand $ question isn't it? In times of world recession and general belt tightening, people look to cut corners and skip some of their principles to simply survive. Could that be seen as acceptable? "I have a wife and kids to feed, don't moralise at me mate!". "Why flog my guts out working when I can live on benefits and get the same money". Is that acceptable? There will always be the out and out crooks, criminals, and wasters in the world, that is the way of things, and always has been.

My comments above are necessarily UK based, I can't comment in detail upon the USA situation because I don't live there. But I doubt it's that much different being only 3000 miles away. There are times that I do despair about the human race, and think there has to be more to this life than this. Then I look up at the sky at night and see the planets, stars, and Galaxies, and think c'mon Seti, they are out there somewhere, just find them, make this world of ours worthwhile being here ....

"When the going gets tough, the tough get going"

Joseph P. Kennedy (1888–1969)

And a certain one poster claims that the law is bad so its ok to steal whatever you like.

I am all for putting theives of any kind behind bars. Im also for morals and scruples in Business.

The CEO of Enron had neither. Nor did Bernie Madoff. They both got what they deserved.

Or do you think different?

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[/quote]

Old James

A certain two posters appear to advocate the pursuit of business and 'The Rule of Law' in all forms without scruples and without morals or any sense of 'fairness'...

Good, bad, nastily ugly, or just the way of the modern world?


Has the USA become not The Land of the Free (enjoying freedom), but instead the land of whoever can pay lawyers to argue their case and whoever can afford to bribe congress to steer the laws so that lawyers can argue their (business) case more easily (more cheaply).

Is this all a game of Neoliberalism, soured with monopolistic totalitarianism where anything and everything is 'acceptable' to make a financial profit? All without any scruples or morals? Where even personal freedoms are sold off?


There are ever more brazen examples of 'lobbied for' laws to restrict everyone's freedoms for the sake of propping up or even creating 'business practices'. To avoid a quagmire, for just one example there is "Hollywood" that via lobbying is in effect creating ever more draconian vaguely broad laws open to 'interpretation' that likely already has made all and everyone using the internet, or viewing or listening to media, vulnerable to being labeled a new felon... Indeed, thousands of people have already been literally randomly sued (successfully extorted) of thousands of dollars each rather than face yet greater expense in trying to argue in a USA court.

(Aside: Is that also a logical 'free market' extension to what is already done in the movie industry of 'making the books' so that for 'accounting purposes', no 'accountable profit' is made?... And so no tax or royalties need be paid... Regardless of whoever might be in effect getting 'defrauded'...)


Is that in the USA, and for the world, a world to be wanted?

Only in the USA?
Martin


Usual unfortunately required disclaimer so as to be clear: All just merely my own personal abstract views and opinion. All this has nothing to do with this planet. Any names or items of any similarity to reality are just a coincidental figment of imagination.


ps: Curiously in the Wikipedia article for "Hollywood", there is a section detailing the "Rise of the home video market", however, there is no mention of the "Rise of the Internet"...

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)