Ah, the ways of the press ...
The cleaner they are ...
we love dirty laundry

Gary, we seem at complete cross purposes here....

It was being suggested that Rolls Royce paid little or no Corporation Tax which was being seen as wrong when they were making a profit. There has been no suggestion that they were breaking the law, any tax avoidance is not illegal. I am just surprised that Rolls Royce of all people are seemingly not squeaky clean and would attract this sort of criticism.

Economist Richard Murphy, director of campaign group Tax Research UK, said it did not appear to be fair that a profitable company was not paying any UK tax.

He said: "Legality is not the question. The big question is, is it right, is it fair and we have got the proper tax system?"

A spokesman for HMRC said: "HMRC ensures that multinationals pay the tax due in accordance with UK tax law.

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Gary, we seem at complete cross purposes here....

It was being suggested that Rolls Royce paid little or no Corporation Tax which was being seen as wrong when they were making a profit. There has been no suggestion that they were breaking the law, any tax avoidance is not illegal. I am just surprised that Rolls Royce of all people are seemingly not squeaky clean and would attract this sort of criticism.

Economist Richard Murphy, director of campaign group Tax Research UK, said it did not appear to be fair that a profitable company was not paying any UK tax.

He said: "Legality is not the question. The big question is, is it right, is it fair and we have got the proper tax system?"

A spokesman for HMRC said: "HMRC ensures that multinationals pay the tax due in accordance with UK tax law.

What I meant Gary was that the name of Rolls Royce is respected around the world as the very essence of Britisness and quality in both the automotive and aerospace areas. To think that they haven't been upfront in paying due taxes I see as a bit of a blow to our national pride. Bear in mind though that this is the aerospace engine builder, Rolls Royce motors are owned by BMW.

They are just doing their fiduciary duty to their shareholders as every other corporation on the face of the planet should. Why should there by any surprise that they are obeying the law? Do you expect them to violate it? Are you unaware of the law?

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What I meant Gary was that the name of Rolls Royce is respected around the world as the very essence of Britisness and quality in both the automotive and aerospace areas. To think that they haven't been upfront in paying due taxes I see as a bit of a blow to our national pride. Bear in mind though that this is the aerospace engine builder, Rolls Royce motors are owned by BMW.

They want to use our infrastructure, they want access to our markets, they want the political stability our societies provide and they do not want to contribute.

Who is "they"? Is that your pension fund that owns shares in each of them?

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"Let's see: - Vodafone, Barclays, Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, Google etc, all doing deals or avoiding their share of tax.

Major banks making serious losses & yet continue to pay out big bonuses...."

This is a world wide problem. They want to use our infrastructure, they want access to our markets, they want the political stability our societies provide and they do not want to contribute. I say let them go to Somalia or the like. Others will spring up to fill the economic void.

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I am horrified if this is true

Why would you be horrified of your tax code?

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That was from the BBC. Rolls Royce also produced the RB211 for the Tristar amongst others, the Pegasus for the Harrier Jump jet, the Olympus for Concorde, and the Adour for the Red Arrows Hawk, and the Anglo/French Jaguar.

I am horrified if this is true, and there has been any tax "avoidance" and I use the term carefully.

Rolls Royce

I'll post this before Sirius or Nick do, to demonstrate that I am always open to seeing both sides of the story. This does not seem right to me at all, that company of all people. And rather than giving immediate typical sarcastic comments, I want to know more facts about it before I can sensibly comment.

But I have to say that upon the face of it, it does not make good reading.

To be quite honest, I read the whole story & not from the "Waily Fail" either. With their history, especially with providing the Spitfires & Lancasters with those famous Merlin engines of theirs, I was dismayed.

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Rolls Royce

I'll post this before Sirius or Nick do, to demonstrate that I am always open to seeing both sides of the story. This does not seem right to me at all, that company of all people. And rather than giving immediate typical sarcastic comments, I want to know more facts about it before I can sensibly comment.

But I have to say that upon the face of it, it does not make good reading.

Perhaps we should have a world government which outlaws tax havens .....

Or we could outlaw taxes on pieces of paper and only impose them on flesh and blood. I know it won't work, it wouldn't have enough loopholes to stand a chance of passing.

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Hi Richard, what a welcome breath of fresh air :-)

reduce the burden of regulation on business.

This head to head scrap of businesses Vs the Chancellors taxes has been going on for years.

Note that regulations are only a burden on badly run businesses

It is also a burden on all public businesses, good, badly run, or just greedy. They are owned by shareholders, so if they don't make X profits and make Y dividends to them, they withdraw their investment and place it elsewhere. And we are talking pensions funds with many Billions of money here. Perhaps we should have a world government which outlaws tax havens .....

Vodafone, Barclays, Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, Google etc, all doing deals or avoiding their share of tax.

I completely agree, they are doing it because they were allowed to get away with it under 13 years of Labour rule.

During which, the then Conservative opposition were making incessant calls to "reduce the burden of regulation" on business.

Note that regulations are only a burden on badly run businesses, such as the crooks and spivs above. In twenty years of self-employment, I think I only came across three regulations: pay your taxes, pay your National Insurance, and register under the Data Protection Act (as it then was). None of them was a burden - I just got a letter from the tax office each year, saying "We are pleased to accept your calculations".

Vodafone, Barclays, Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, Google etc, all doing deals or avoiding their share of tax.

I completely agree, they are doing it because they were allowed to get away with it under 13 years of Labour rule. It is this government that has recognised that and is attempting to do something about it, rather than sweeping it under the carpet. What are the options? If they are forced to pay their fair share, most have said they will pull out of the UK and base their business elsewhere. So you either get no taxes at all, or levy as much as they will take and keep the pressure on, a something is better than nothing view. Of course it is all wrong, no-one denies that.

Major banks making serious losses & yet continue to pay out big bonuses....

Again, completely agreed. But if you have a brilliant futures or derivatives trader, that can make your bank £100 million profit a year, it doesn't seem much to ask to give him a contract to pay him a 2% bonus on whatever he makes. However if in general trading the bank makes an overall loss, then a £2M bonus seems obscene. It is not necessarily the traders that are at fault, more the banks general management.

Millionaires tax cuts.

This again is a repeat of the businesses response above. Of course it is wrong, but a large majority have threatened to take their money out of the UK if not given what "they" would call a fairer deal. So you have to balance the gains and losses of any strategy. I don't like what I see, and I don't have an answer to it. If I had I would be the next Chancellor.

But I did note that report came from an outfit called Zimbio, which are also responsible for this load of rubbish Labour. So I don't think we need take them too seriously.

Chris, I don't have any faith in the Libs being a genuine alternative to the Cons & Labs. One thing we three here, You, me and Sirius have in common is that we all recognised that "The system" is in desperate need of change.

Yes that is true, what we disagree about is how that is going to be achieved, as I have already said, I have my views and you have yours. We will have to agree to disagree.

Chris, I don't have any faith in the Libs being a genuine alternative to the
Cons & Labs. One thing we three here, You, me and Sirius have in common is that
we all recognised that "The system" is in desperate need of change. Less
politics, less politicians in our faces, less political interference, less Europe hence allowing Great Britain to breath again. A Britain where the populous decides on it's destiny but not a destiny decided on by politicians for the latter has failed us miserably.

Unfortunately Nick, while we have thieves in important departments doing deals under the table like HMR&C, the ordinary man in the street is screwed & will continue to be unless very serious changes are implemented from the top downwards.

Let's see: - Vodafone, Barclays, Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, Google etc, all doing deals or avoiding their share of tax.

Major banks making serious losses & yet continue to pay out big bonuses....

...AND from next month we see this......

Tax Cut Countdown

& don't forget December 31st 2013...... Another EU fiasco!

Great Britain breathe again? You must be joking! It suffered a serious cardiac arrest in 1979....

.... lost a lung in 1997 & it's remaining one is failing.

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I'll try and answer points from both of the last two posts together.

I would agree that the Lib Dems are not seen as a party able to run a majority Government. Firstly they are a small party compared to the main two, secondly they are self funded, unlike the Tories backed by the upper classes, industrialists, and rich landowners, and Labour bankrolled by the trade unions. Thirdly they have no track record of being in government, the last time being in the early 1900's and the WWII coalition. However in terms of popularity and influence they are the official 3rd party. Apparently being chased by UKIP, but well, flavours of the month come to mind.

At the moment the Lib Dems are in government for the first time in 100 years, they have 5 Cabinet Ministers, and a further 20 other ministers and junior ministers. Across both sides of parliament those people are generally recognised as doing a good job. No, we will never see a majority Lib Dem government, but what I think they have demonstrated is that they can play a meaningful part in a coalition government, either with the Tories or Labour. That is I think their future role, if you like, being a parliamentary policeman, curbing the worst excesses of either main party. As things stand, no one is prepared to give either main party a free hand to do exactly what they want without some means of keeping them on a leash.

What has gone wrong is that no current politicians have any experience in what it means to run a coalition government. There is too much squabbling and tit for tat going on which causes the general public to lose faith with politicians. Cameron tries to run it as a Tory majority government relying on his clout to push things through, cherry picking what he wants and doesn't want. He forgets that if it hadn't been for the Coalition he wouldn't have been PM in the first place. Had he been forced to hold another general election a few months later in 2010, Labour could well have won.

But underlying it all is the clear wishes of the people that they want less Europe, less immigration, and less bailing out of other economies. They want the NHS sorted out, and big businesses to pay their fair share of taxes. Neither main party seems to have any plans to tackle those in the short term despite what might be said. No wonder people are turning off and not giving either one a clear mandate. OK, the existing basically two party system needs to be changed, to address that we had the AV referendum in 2011 with a national vote. Based on the coalition agreement, the referendum was a simple majority yes/no question as to whether to replace the current First Past the Post (FPTP) electoral system used in general elections with the Alternative Vote (AV) system. On a turnout of 42 percent, 68 percent voted No and 32 percent voted Yes. The country was given a chance to change things but didn't. AV referendum

A Britain where the populous decides on it's destiny but not a destiny decided on by politicians

How do the people decide upon their destiny, if they don't elect people to represent them and make decisions on their behalf. That is what politicians are, elected representatives of the people. You cant have a national vote every time there is a new bill presented or major decision to be taken, the country would grind to a halt. But as has been highlighted, the public feel that those people they elected are out of touch with them, and are not listening. We constantly hear "lessons need to be learned from this ...." but we do not see any discernible change. That is the main problem which has to be addressed by all parties, before 2015.

Bernard Jenkin makes fair points and I cant disagree with very much of it, but I will comment on two points. "A small professional managerial class is running British politics" In some respects yes, you couldn't take the average man in the street and ask him to run the country. You have to have knowledge of local and national government workings and international affairs, so politicians have to be professionals, many have degrees in economics. We wont have an Italian situation as we don't have their economy and their Mafia.

At the next general election in 2015 there will likely be four possible outcomes

1. A majority Tory win
2. A majority Labour win
3. Lib/Con coalition
4. Lib/Lab coalition

1 is possible but with a very slim margin, 2 just won't happen. 3 means more of the same, 4 is possible. Labour wont make the same mistake twice by refusing to negotiate, and we did have the "Lib/Lab pact" back in 1977. But to be fair a Lib/Lab coalition in 2010 would have been almost unworkable anyway Lib/Lab pact I'm getting the impression that far too many people sit at home on their backside, reading too many newspapers, and saying tut tut that isn't right. The UK media in all its forms is politically driven, why do you think we have had the Levenson report? Levenson I spent 2 hours last Thursday night as an official teller outside my local polling station for a by-election, freezing my nuts off in the bitter cold. Why? Because I want to play a meaningful part in how this country is run, not just winging, moaning, and complaining about it. And yes my party did win, and I'll do more in the future.

But compare our political system with say France, you are not allowed to be President or a senior politician unless you have at least 3 mistresses. Take Italy, vote against the government you might not live to vote again. Take the USA, the Electoral College decides who will be President NOT the people. Take Europe generally, well actually don't bother, most of them are over here anyway. The rest of the world are virtually dictatorships in one form or another e.g. China, South America. Perhaps we should be grateful for what we have got.

A week is a long time in politics, 2 years is a lifetime ......

Chris, I don't have any faith in the Libs being a genuine alternative to the
Cons & Labs. One thing we three here, You, me and Sirius have in common is that
we all recognised that "The system" is in desperate need of change. Less
politics, less politicians in our faces, less political interference, less Europe
hence allowing Great Britain to breath again. A Britain where the populous
decides on it's destiny but not a destiny decided on by politicians for the
latter has failed us miserably.

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

This says it all....

"This isn't a crisis for a government but a crisis of governance. We're living in a country where politicians talk about fixing things... but they seem powerless to deal with it.

There is a real sense that the whole of the Westminster village is living in its own world talking in its own terms and has lost touch.

A small professional managerial class is running British politics and they have very little to do with the ordinary lives of ordinary people up and down the country.

If we're going to avoid an Italian situation where comedians start getting elected then the whole British political establishment has got to be forced to engage much more actively with what ordinary people are feeling."

Source: - Bernard Jenkin - Conservative MP for Harwich & North Essex.

Never a truer word spoken in jest!

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Hiyah Nick,

In keeping with half term school reports, many tended to end with the note, "Must do better".

Hehe there can't be any of us that didn't get one of those, it was typical teacher speak! Mostly true when you think back though.

Hence a swing away, by the electorate, towards a fourth party; call it a protest party if one likes.

You are on the right track. At the last General election in 2010 the mood of the public was quite clear, we don't want any more Labour, and we don't want the Tories back either. But there wasn't an alternative third party that was seen as capable of forming a government. Result, a 50/50 vote and a hung Parliament, leading to a coalition. Now can the UKKIP's overtake the Lib Dems to be the third party?

No ones listening to the protesters and acting accordingly

It is being seen as a traditional mid term protest vote, which is being taken notice of, but no one is panicking too much just yet.

politics is finally getting exciting...for the right reasons or is it for the wrong reasons??

In my opinion it is getting exciting for the right reasons! as I have already said, People are fed up with the old two party system taking Buggins turn to run the country. Finally we are seeing the beginnings of what could turn out to be a viable alternative, with a genuine three party system. Yes I do think it is exciting times.

The country in the form of local by-elections does speak, always has done, it's like a half term school report.

In keeping with half term school reports, many tended to end with the note, "Must
do better". This for the main stream political parties is nye on impossible. Hence
a swing away, by the electorate, towards a fourth party; call it a protest party
if one likes. No ones listening to the protesters and acting accordingly,
politics is finally getting exciting...for the right reasons or is it for the wrong reasons??

---

The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.