1 and likely you make more than the 100-120 you judge

Some I judge go on to make more than me ... perhaps much much more. Standing on the shoulders of giants, a la Isaac Newton, indeed.

2 I have worked many jobs that in one way or another were unpleasant and payed a premium because others would not or could not work them

While my profession is "white collar", along the way I have worked some unpleasant jobs or jobs that included some unpleasant tasks. Others could have done them, but did not. I repeatedly took care of unpleasant tasks at some of these jobs, and even outside of work. I was never paid a premium for this.

3 collective bargaining and federal regulation have made what you say some what true but a doctor is still going to make more than a janitor.

I've only been a member of a union once. Your point would apply there (thus, not being paid a premium for doing unpleasant tasks).
There is no union at my current place of employ. In this case, your point does not apply. There are people a few miles away that I have more education than, more years of experience, and probably better reviews of my work than theirs, yet they make more.

The world has never had a "free market" as described by Adam Smith in the Wealth of Nations. Those who advocate a return to it are smoking better stuff than I am.

---

Where I live, across Puget Sound from Seattle, housing costs are about 50% of the greater Seattle area. Most of the employment is defense related, paying far less than Boeing or Micro Soft. The higher wages allow the people to bid up the price of a home but not the price of a mass produced burger. We have to leave the Olympic peninsula in order to purchase a premium auto, no Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus etc. The McDonalds employees are getting paid the same both here and in Seattle, and it is not a living wage for a family of two. In Eastern Washington the cost of living is lower, as is the average wage paid, agriculture is the big dog over there, but a McDonalds employee still makes $9.19.

Is the price board at a Washington state McDonalds the same as a price board in a low minimum wage state? How many burgers per employee are done in both low and high minimum wage states? How many burgers per location are done? How are the rents for the locations? But the big one is how badly does the minimum wage law distort the price of labor and goods?

I did say comparable and that market forces level them out and they do. But I never claimed that was to a penny an hour, nor that location isn't a factor. I'd expect a 25% variation and wouldn't be surprised by 50%. Supply of labor is another factor that hasn't been addressed. That is qualified labor.

Perhaps a less location tied example, say a call center, is a better example. That a company can pick up from Seattle and drop in Mumbai. Many have.

---

three things determine what a job is worth

1 there is grate responsibility

i.e. I decide 3 things a year but they will make or brake a fortune 500 company.

2 the job is nasty or dangerous and a premium must be payed to get anyone to do them

i.e. I drive a dynamite truck.

3 there is a need for specialized knowledge

i.e. I am a doctor.

yes many people work hard for low pay but they can choose to change their

situation by doing or preparing to do one of the above three things.

I'm sorry, but that's a bit naive. Perhaps a kinder way of putting it is "Well, that sounds about the way it should be (maybe), but not how it works out in reality."

1) My (final) decisions affect the lives of about 100-120 people twice a year. The decisions made by me and my colleagues are to submit subpar/negative reports for 30-40% of those people. Think that's not a big deal? Dig deeper. My/our decisions impact the future earning power of each and every one of those people.

2) Nice example. But you said nasty, as well as dangerous. So, janitors make what dynamite truck drivers do, or something close?

I thought not.

3) When someone with more years of experience, more years of specialized knowledge, and good evaluations from superiors as well as the ones served, but someone else with the same specialization in the same region/area but with less of both experience and level of knowledge can make more their first year than the better qualified at a nearby similar place of employ? Disgusting.

Sarge, you make an argument that the "free Market" is not working.

When ID returns, he can look at my post right here and call "intellectual cowardice" (learn what it might look somewhat like in the following, ID):

Betreger, I do not feel qualified to make that argument. I am simply providing these examples to ask, should we assume it is, or not?

three things determine what a job is worth

1 there is grate responsibility

i.e. I decide 3 things a year but they will make or brake a fortune 500 company.

2 the job is nasty or dangerous and a premium must be payed to get anyone to do them

i.e. I drive a dynamite truck.

3 there is a need for specialized knowledge

i.e. I am a doctor.

yes many people work hard for low pay but they can choose to change their

situation by doing or preparing to do one of the above three things.

I'm sorry, but that's a bit naive. Perhaps a kinder way of putting it is "Well, that sounds about the way it should be (maybe), but not how it works out in reality."

1) My (final) decisions affect the lives of about 100-120 people twice a year. The decisions made by me and my colleagues are to submit subpar/negative reports for 30-40% of those people. Think that's not a big deal? Dig deeper. My/our decisions impact the future earning power of each and every one of those people.

2) Nice example. But you said nasty, as well as dangerous. So, janitors make what dynamite truck drivers do, or something close?

I thought not.

3) When someone with more years of experience, more years of specialized knowledge, and good evaluations from superiors as well as the ones served, but someone else with the same specialization in the same region/area but with less of both experience and level of knowledge can make more their first year than the better qualified at a nearby similar place of employ? Disgusting.

Sarge, you make an argument that the "free Market" is not working.

---

three things determine what a job is worth

1 there is grate responsibility

i.e. I decide 3 things a year but they will make or brake a fortune 500 company.

2 the job is nasty or dangerous and a premium must be payed to get anyone to do them

i.e. I drive a dynamite truck.

3 there is a need for specialized knowledge

i.e. I am a doctor.

yes many people work hard for low pay but they can choose to change their

situation by doing or preparing to do one of the above three things.

I'm sorry, but that's a bit naive. Perhaps a kinder way of putting it is "Well, that sounds about the way it should be (maybe), but not how it works out in reality."

1) My (final) decisions affect the lives of about 100-120 people twice a year. The decisions made by me and my colleagues are to submit subpar/negative reports for 30-40% of those people. Think that's not a big deal? Dig deeper. My/our decisions impact the future earning power of each and every one of those people.

2) Nice example. But you said nasty, as well as dangerous. So, janitors make what dynamite truck drivers do, or something close?

I thought not.

3) When someone with more years of experience, more years of specialized knowledge, and good evaluations from superiors as well as the ones served, but someone else with the same specialization in the same region/area but with less of both experience and level of knowledge can make more their first year than the better qualified at a nearby similar place of employ? Disgusting.

========================================================================
1 and likely you make more than the 100-120 you judge

2 I have worked many jobs that in one way or another were unpleasant and payed a

premium because others would not or could not work them

3 collective bargaining and federal regulation have made what you say some what

true but a doctor is still going to make more than a janitor.

---

Where I live, across Puget Sound from Seattle, housing costs are about 50% of the greater Seattle area. Most of the employment is defense related, paying far less than Boeing or Micro Soft. The higher wages allow the people to bid up the price of a home but not the price of a mass produced burger. We have to leave the Olympic peninsula in order to purchase a premium auto, no Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus etc. The McDonalds employees are getting paid the same both here and in Seattle, and it is not a living wage for a family of two. In Eastern Washington the cost of living is lower, as is the average wage paid, agriculture is the big dog over there, but a McDonalds employee still makes $9.19.

---

three things determine what a job is worth

1 there is grate responsibility

i.e. I decide 3 things a year but they will make or brake a fortune 500 company.

2 the job is nasty or dangerous and a premium must be payed to get anyone to do them

i.e. I drive a dynamite truck.

3 there is a need for specialized knowledge

i.e. I am a doctor.

yes many people work hard for low pay but they can choose to change their

situation by doing or preparing to do one of the above three things.

I'm sorry, but that's a bit naive. Perhaps a kinder way of putting it is "Well, that sounds about the way it should be (maybe), but not how it works out in reality."

1) My (final) decisions affect the lives of about 100-120 people twice a year. The decisions made by me and my colleagues are to submit subpar/negative reports for 30-40% of those people. Think that's not a big deal? Dig deeper. My/our decisions impact the future earning power of each and every one of those people.

2) Nice example. But you said nasty, as well as dangerous. So, janitors make what dynamite truck drivers do, or something close?

I thought not.

3) When someone with more years of experience, more years of specialized knowledge, and good evaluations from superiors as well as the ones served, but someone else with the same specialization in the same region/area but with less of both experience and level of knowledge can make more their first year than the better qualified at a nearby similar place of employ? Disgusting.

Lots of people who work very hard are very poor.

Define what makes work "hard" or "easy"

How do you compare if a dishwasher's work is harder or easier than a bank CFO?

Gary, that is a fundamental question in micro economics. Each person has their own set of marginal utilities.

I would like to see ES's meaning and thoughts. I suspect she attaches a meaning to hard work more like I would expect to find in the physics department rather than the economics department.

Yes, it is a interesting question but presumably market forces have valued an hours time somewhat close to correct.

I'm not so sure about market forces. Here in Washington state we have the highest min wage, $9.19, in the country and I have not noticed any McDonalds or Burger Kings relocating to Texas. There is still unemployment but the burger joints are fully staffed. If wages were lower as supply and demand presupposes they would hire more people.

Betreger, you should expand on this, unless it is in fact higher wages due to higher cost of living, which is what Gary suggested. Seattle, I hear, is a VERY expensive place to live. What about other areas of the state?

three things determine what a job is worth

1 there is grate responsibility

i.e. I decide 3 things a year but they will make or brake a fortune 500 company.

2 the job is nasty or dangerous and a premium must be payed to get anyone to do them

i.e. I drive a dynamite truck.

3 there is a need for specialized knowledge

i.e. I am a doctor.

yes many people work hard for low pay but they can choose to change their

situation by doing or preparing to do one of the above three things.

---

Lots of people who work very hard are very poor.

Define what makes work "hard" or "easy"

How do you compare if a dishwasher's work is harder or easier than a bank CFO?

Gary, that is a fundamental question in micro economics. Each person has their own set of marginal utilities.

I would like to see ES's meaning and thoughts. I suspect she attaches a meaning to hard work more like I would expect to find in the physics department rather than the economics department.

Yes, it is a interesting question but presumably market forces have valued an hours time somewhat close to correct.

I'm not so sure about market forces. Here in Washington state we have the highest min wage, $9.19, in the country and I have not noticed any McDonalds or Burger Kings relocating to Texas. There is still unemployment but the burger joints are fully staffed. If wages were lower as supply and demand presupposes they would hire more people.

---

We build a big stick and talk softly.

We would recognise that as an "iron fist in a velvet glove", which pretty much sums up UK political diplomacy.

But geez why dont we stop aid to countries that dont even like us, But we hope we can convert them

Try telling that to the UK Government about India ...

But probably not for those employed and paid by the federal authorities. Where people doing the same job, with the same qualifications etc. get the same wages, no matter where they live, or serve.

Perhaps that is how the UK government pays its employees, but not the US government, which applies a location cost of living factor to the wages it pays.
http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877

But not for the Miltary, or so I am told, who are also Federal employee's.

Room and board paid for and PX, BX goods at uniform prices, I think that is the great majority of the location expense picked up by the taxpayer.

Having been in the military getting free room and board working right next to civilians doing the same job I did for one hell of a lot more money, id say get rid of all civilian workers and get more military folks.

I am being tongue in cheek here. But geez why dont we stop aid to countries that dont even like us,But we hope we can convert them. The hell with them I say.

Most of the world hates our guts, So lets just take our money and go home. We build a big stick and talk softly.

---

[/quote]

Old James

Lots of people who work very hard are very poor.

Define what makes work "hard" or "easy"

How do you compare if a dishwasher's work is harder or easier than a bank CFO?

Gary, that is a fundamental question in micro economics. Each person has their own set of marginal utilities.

I would like to see ES's meaning and thoughts. I suspect she attaches a meaning to hard work more like I would expect to find in the physics department rather than the economics department.

I suspect she is thinking of women in Africa.

Yes, it is a interesting question but presumably market forces have valued an hours time somewhat close to correct.

Why should we presume this? This from the same system that believes "corporations are people, my friend"?

the comments about government and Private sector jobs is that vary few government

jobs add value so rather than making the pie larger they simply require more

slices to be cut. in order to do more for though's in need and to reduce the debt

as well as take care of essential services we need a bigger pie.

---

But probably not for those employed and paid by the federal authorities. Where people doing the same job, with the same qualifications etc. get the same wages, no matter where they live, or serve.

Perhaps that is how the UK government pays its employees, but not the US government, which applies a location cost of living factor to the wages it pays.
http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877

But not for the Miltary, or so I am told, who are also Federal employee's.

Room and board paid for and PX, BX goods at uniform prices, I think that is the great majority of the location expense picked up by the taxpayer.

---

But probably not for those employed and paid by the federal authorities. Where people doing the same job, with the same qualifications etc. get the same wages, no matter where they live, or serve.

Perhaps that is how the UK government pays its employees, but not the US government, which applies a location cost of living factor to the wages it pays.
http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877

But not for the Miltary, or so I am told, who are also Federal employee's.

But probably not for those employed and paid by the federal authorities. Where people doing the same job, with the same qualifications etc. get the same wages, no matter where they live, or serve.

Perhaps that is how the UK government pays its employees, but not the US government, which applies a location cost of living factor to the wages it pays.
http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104877

---

Yes, it is a interesting question but presumably market forces have valued an hours time somewhat close to correct

Maybe for the private sector, where wages etc. can be set by the local economy. Where people doing approx the same job, with the same qualifications etc. would probably get differing rates depending where they lived.

But probably not for those employed and paid by the federal authorities. Where people doing the same job, with the same qualifications etc. get the same wages, no matter where they live, or serve.

Which leads to some uneven comparisons if you were to consider two completely differing locations, each with a private sector worker and a federal employee. And all of those people employed in the same trade and with the same qualificatons and with the same number of years experience.

Lots of people who work very hard are very poor.

Define what makes work "hard" or "easy"

How do you compare if a dishwasher's work is harder or easier than a bank CFO?

Gary, that is a fundamental question in micro economics. Each person has their own set of marginal utilities.

I would like to see ES's meaning and thoughts. I suspect she attaches a meaning to hard work more like I would expect to find in the physics department rather than the economics department.

Yes, it is a interesting question but presumably market forces have valued an hours time somewhat close to correct.

---