"A patriot without religion, in my estimation, is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God" Abigail Adams, 1775

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Must not conflict resolve by suggesting that someone should go sit on an ice pick...

first just so you know food stamps are issued by the department of agriculture and are in fact an aid to farmers.

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Gary, well a less than perfect market does not necessarily allocate resources in the most efficient or equitable manner.
LOL, I'll spend whatever it takes to buy that trunk.

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Gary, one of the properties of a free market is uniform knowledge throughout. That is part of the definition and any other answer does not get a passing grade.
Can you cite one market with perfect knowledge?

Ah the IDEAL free market.

as I said

But I never claimed that was to a penny an hour

We are talking about what is, not some flight of fantasy.



<edit>How about the auction of an unopened trunk from an abandoned storage locker. All the bidders have the same knowledge, none.

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I hear what you say about the value of different jobs. It does seem crazy. But given the weird ways of value that society places on things, I still say people are paid what society perceives they are worth. That the supply and demand curves are working.

You will find that that the salaries of Hedge Fund CEO's, Bank CEO's and Fortune 500 companies are not decided by "the free market". These companies are a cartel and the internal market inside it is anything but "free".

All are linked by those on the inside having multiple directorships across many companies and other opportunities for mutual back scratching. i.e. You vote for my rise/bonus and I'll vote for yours.

We all know what "society" thinks of these people, yet their incomes still stay in the seven figure plus bracket as these people are beyond "society's" reach.

If anyone truly believes that Wall St, London and Zurich are truly a "Free Market" they're smoking better stuff than I can get.

T.A.

They are decided by the free market. Just like Beyonce, they have the ability to self aggrandize. Just because "everyone" thinks her music is good they bid up the price. Same with a hedge fund or mutual fund manager. Just because he has done well in the past they want to throw money at him to manage. In Beyonce's case it may be more subjective than the fund manager where it can be plotted, it is exactly the same thing, aggrandizement linked worth.

Gary, one of the properties of a free market is uniform knowledge throughout. That is part of the definition and any other answer does not get a passing grade.
Can you cite one market with perfect knowledge?

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On the income topic, shouldn't paid "entertainers" be put into a separate catergory?

"entertainers" to include anybody the general public pays to watch or listen to. Paying to include the adverts that fund the TV and Radio stations etc.

In the 19th century if you wanted to watch an act then you had to watch it live. In most cases the places these acts were performed were either small or it only occured once.

When film came out and it could be copied, many people could watch, in many locations often several times a day. Simarly with sound recording and then Radio. Then we got TV, video recordings and now the internet.

So now "entertainers" can earn vast sums because multi-millions of people pay small amounts to watch and/or hear them.

1 in 7 on foodstamps. Socialist.

1 in 7 on foodstamps says more about employers than it does about our governmental systems.

It kind of infers that food stamps are actually a government subsidy to the employers that only pay the legal minimum wage (around $2/hr in some US states IIRC)

If the government did not provide food stamps then these employers would be forced to pay a true living wage.

But then in the eyes of some, it's only bad when people are given government support. For them, taxpayer support for profitable companies is quite acceptable.

T.A.

Including the part about perception, Chris?

Why not?

We all know that in hard times, people will cut back on their expenditure on basic necessities like food, transport, clothes, savings etc. But come the leisure time, they'll happily splash out hundreds of dollars on a holiday or entertainment. That is why people like Beyonce and her kind are overpaid, because their agents and theatres know what ticket prices they can charge that people will pay.

I would say that a dedicated nurse is worth ten thousand more times to society than some second rate pop singer, but society doesn't seem to see that. They will happily accept a 20% rise in ticket prices, but complain about paying more taxes to give a nurse a higher salary. If anyone can find a solution to that dilemma, please let us know!

I hear what you say about the value of different jobs. It does seem crazy. But given the weird ways of value that society places on things, I still say people are paid what society perceives they are worth. That the supply and demand curves are working.

You will find that that the salaries of Hedge Fund CEO's, Bank CEO's and Fortune 500 companies are not decided by "the free market". These companies are a cartel and the internal market inside it is anything but "free".

All are linked by those on the inside having multiple directorships across many companies and other opportunities for mutual back scratching. i.e. You vote for my rise/bonus and I'll vote for yours.

We all know what "society" thinks of these people, yet their incomes still stay in the seven figure plus bracket as these people are beyond "society's" reach.

If anyone truly believes that Wall St, London and Zurich are truly a "Free Market" they're smoking better stuff than I can get.

T.A.

They are decided by the free market. Just like Beyonce, they have the ability to self aggrandize. Just because "everyone" thinks her music is good they bid up the price. Same with a hedge fund or mutual fund manager. Just because he has done well in the past they want to throw money at him to manage. In Beyonce's case it may be more subjective than the fund manager where it can be plotted, it is exactly the same thing, aggrandizement linked worth.

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1 in 7 on foodstamps. Socialist.

1 in 7 on foodstamps says more about employers than it does about our governmental systems.

I suppose ID would rather people just starve to death, women children and all.

For anyone who's not aware, a single adult (or even couple) is very unlikely to be eligible for any assistance, even foodstamps. Things like foodstamps tend to only be given to parents with children in their under-funded household.

And our awful horrible socialist (sarcasm) president did make cuts to that program. So I guess I'm a little confused as to the complaint here?

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#resist

Stupidest (and Shortest) Cruncher/Poster wrote:

I still say people are paid what society perceives they are worth. That the supply and demand curves are working.

That's quite different from

presumably market forces have valued an hours time somewhat close to correct

.

No mention of perception was indicated in the earlier was posted.

No other method of correct valuation is available. Unless we state my valuation is correct and all others are incorrect. There is no absolute scale to measure against.

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Personally I think Beyonce should be getting about what a lounge singer gets in a dive. But she has a skill set that includes the ability to self aggrandize.

I hear what you say about the value of different jobs. It does seem crazy. But given the weird ways of value that society places on things, I still say people are paid what society perceives they are worth. That the supply and demand curves are working.

I think she deserves a pay cut, but I broadly agree with you :-)

Including the part about perception, Chris?

I hear what you say about the value of different jobs. It does seem crazy. But given the weird ways of value that society places on things, I still say people are paid what society perceives they are worth. That the supply and demand curves are working.

You will find that that the salaries of Hedge Fund CEO's, Bank CEO's and Fortune 500 companies are not decided by "the free market". These companies are a cartel and the internal market inside it is anything but "free".

All are linked by those on the inside having multiple directorships across many companies and other opportunities for mutual back scratching. i.e. You vote for my rise/bonus and I'll vote for yours.

We all know what "society" thinks of these people, yet their incomes still stay in the seven figure plus bracket as these people are beyond "society's" reach.

If anyone truly believes that Wall St, London and Zurich are truly a "Free Market" they're smoking better stuff than I can get.

T.A.

I could get you better stuff. ;)
But I won't partake. :)

I hear what you say about the value of different jobs. It does seem crazy. But given the weird ways of value that society places on things, I still say people are paid what society perceives they are worth. That the supply and demand curves are working.

You will find that that the salaries of Hedge Fund CEO's, Bank CEO's and Fortune 500 companies are not decided by "the free market". These companies are a cartel and the internal market inside it is anything but "free".

All are linked by those on the inside having multiple directorships across many companies and other opportunities for mutual back scratching. i.e. You vote for my rise/bonus and I'll vote for yours.

We all know what "society" thinks of these people, yet their incomes still stay in the seven figure plus bracket as these people are beyond "society's" reach.

If anyone truly believes that Wall St, London and Zurich are truly a "Free Market" they're smoking better stuff than I can get.

T.A.

Personally I think Beyonce should be getting about what a lounge singer gets in a dive. But she has a skill set that includes the ability to self aggrandize.

I hear what you say about the value of different jobs. It does seem crazy. But given the weird ways of value that society places on things, I still say people are paid what society perceives they are worth. That the supply and demand curves are working.

I think she deserves a pay cut, but I broadly agree with you :-)

I still say people are paid what society perceives they are worth. That the supply and demand curves are working.

That's quite different from

presumably market forces have valued an hours time somewhat close to correct

.

No mention of perception was indicated in the earlier was posted.

I don't need to think of women in Africa to point out the disconnect between hard work and pay.

Knew you didn't.

Nurses work very hard. I don't think hedge fund managers work 1,000,000 times harder than nurses, but apparently the supposed free market does. I don't know who put about this myth that somehow the free market pays people what they are worth. Its a myth, if it wasn't Beyonce wouldn't be earning more than a fireman. People who actually add value to society such as teachers, doctors,nurses, scientists, childcare workers would be earning the most. The free market has it wrong, and its certainly not free.

If the free market has it wrong, then is the lesson taught in ecnomics class wrong about supply and demand curves?

I think you discount knowledge far too much. For your example of a nurse, how about an orderly and a doctor or a medical billing person.

Personally I think Beyonce should be getting about what a lounge singer gets in a dive. But she has a skill set that includes the ability to self aggrandize.

I hear what you say about the value of different jobs. It does seem crazy. But given the weird ways of value that society places on things, I still say people are paid what society perceives they are worth. That the supply and demand curves are working.

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Lots of people who work very hard are very poor.

Define what makes work "hard" or "easy"

How do you compare if a dishwasher's work is harder or easier than a bank CFO?

Gary, that is a fundamental question in micro economics. Each person has their own set of marginal utilities.

I would like to see ES's meaning and thoughts. I suspect she attaches a meaning to hard work more like I would expect to find in the physics department rather than the economics department.

I suspect she is thinking of women in Africa.

Yes, it is a interesting question but presumably market forces have valued an hours time somewhat close to correct.

Why should we presume this? This from the same system that believes "corporations are people, my friend"?

I don't need to think of women in Africa to point out the disconnect between hard work and pay. Nurses work very hard. I don't think hedge fund managers work 1,000,000 times harder than nurses, but apparently the supposed free market does. I don't know who put about this myth that somehow the free market pays people what they are worth. Its a myth, if it wasn't Beyonce wouldn't be earning more than a fireman. People who actually add value to society such as teachers, doctors,nurses, scientists, childcare workers would be earning the most. The free market has it wrong, and its certainly not free.

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Reality Internet Personality

1 and likely you make more than the 100-120 you judge

Some I judge go on to make more than me ... perhaps much much more. Standing on the shoulders of giants, a la Isaac Newton, indeed.

2 I have worked many jobs that in one way or another were unpleasant and payed a premium because others would not or could not work them

While my profession is "white collar", along the way I have worked some unpleasant jobs or jobs that included some unpleasant tasks. Others could have done them, but did not. I repeatedly took care of unpleasant tasks at some of these jobs, and even outside of work. I was never paid a premium for this.

3 collective bargaining and federal regulation have made what you say some what true but a doctor is still going to make more than a janitor.

I've only been a member of a union once. Your point would apply there (thus, not being paid a premium for doing unpleasant tasks).
There is no union at my current place of employ. In this case, your point does not apply. There are people a few miles away that I have more education than, more years of experience, and probably better reviews of my work than theirs, yet they make more.

And, to clarify, two people that started the same time as me, with even more education than me, with 10 to 20 more years experience were hired on to make about the same as me.