Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: DENIAL

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Profile William Rothamel
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Message 1481289 - Posted: 24 Feb 2014, 18:03:34 UTC - in response to Message 1481273.  

Gas is clean in the sense that there is no fly ash, soot, sulphur dioxide, heavy metals, scrubber sludge and has less CO-2. Those who think that CO-2 is "Dirty" apparently never got over toilet training, or they defecate little wrapped candies.
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Message 1481298 - Posted: 24 Feb 2014, 18:22:17 UTC - in response to Message 1481289.  

Gas is clean in the sense that there is no fly ash, soot, sulphur dioxide, heavy metals, scrubber sludge and has less CO-2. Those who think that CO-2 is "Dirty" apparently never got over toilet training, or they defecate little wrapped candies.

Leaving aside the scatological elements, the rest is true, which means less smog, acid rain and nervous system damage.
The same reason that LPG powered cars are cleaner than petrol or diesel ones, their only emissions are CO2 and H2O. And while CO2 may have some greenhouse effect, it isn't actively toxic.
Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.
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Message 1481320 - Posted: 24 Feb 2014, 19:15:45 UTC - in response to Message 1481270.  

Solar panels on every south-ish facing home roof struck me as a good idea, as it's free and otherwise unused space, shame the government stopped subsidies for them too.
My parents got theirs in the nick of time and are still getting the 21p/unit feed-in tariff.
This is getting more into the solutions aspect though.

I think it was Ray Kurzweil who pointed out how much energy cities could generate if you just stuck solar panels on every rooftop. Sure, it wouldn't fulfill all our needs, but it sure as hell would save a lot. And if you combine that with other energy saving measures inside buildings (proper isolation, turning the power off when its not required, using thermal heating) we could seriously reduce human energy needs. And if you were to go a step further and require all new buildings to be build in such a way they are almost energy neutral or even energy neutral...well. It would take some time and a lot of money, but in a few decades, we could have entire cities that essentially power themselves. Wouldn't that be something, a world where power plants exist only for emergency cases and to power industrial areas?
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Message 1481321 - Posted: 24 Feb 2014, 19:15:59 UTC - in response to Message 1481289.  

Gas is clean in the sense that there is no fly ash, soot, sulphur dioxide, heavy metals, scrubber sludge and has less CO-2. Those who think that CO-2 is "Dirty" apparently never got over toilet training, or they defecate little wrapped candies.

Less dirty is not the same as clean.

I find your analogy with feces says more about you than the actual topic at hand.
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Message 1481324 - Posted: 24 Feb 2014, 19:18:36 UTC - in response to Message 1481298.  

Gas is clean in the sense that there is no fly ash, soot, sulphur dioxide, heavy metals, scrubber sludge and has less CO-2. Those who think that CO-2 is "Dirty" apparently never got over toilet training, or they defecate little wrapped candies.

Leaving aside the scatological elements, the rest is true, which means less smog, acid rain and nervous system damage.
The same reason that LPG powered cars are cleaner than petrol or diesel ones, their only emissions are CO2 and H2O. And while CO2 may have some greenhouse effect, it isn't actively toxic.

Nitrogen Oxides are also produced.
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Message 1481327 - Posted: 24 Feb 2014, 19:20:19 UTC - in response to Message 1481273.  

...

.. Clean, and CHEAP Natural Gas ....

There is no such thing as "Clean Gas". I was very perplexed when that bit of Newspeak began to appear in the industry propaganda and for a while I actually thought they'd come up with a new form of gas because otherwise why would they be claiming that Natural Gas is clean?

The fact that "clean gas" is an utter lie should be the canary in the coal mine so to speak of some of the other "facts" you've been fed.


Everything is relative.

You figure out how to increase living standards of 3.5 to 4 BILLION people in REAL poverty without cheap and abundant energy.

The problem with the 'Greenies' is they don't understand, or refuse to accept, that everything has consequences. That the ONLY solution to Global Poverty, is either a VAST reduction of Human Population, or a VAST increase of Energy.

'Green Energy' doesn't 'fit the bill', yet.

Those 3.5 to 4 Billion people would actually be better served by renewable resources than coal, oil and gas because you don't need to build expensive infrastructure.
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Message 1481331 - Posted: 24 Feb 2014, 19:22:07 UTC - in response to Message 1481273.  

Everything is relative.

You figure out how to increase living standards of 3.5 to 4 BILLION people in REAL poverty without cheap and abundant energy.

The problem with the 'Greenies' is they don't understand, or refuse to accept, that everything has consequences. That the ONLY solution to Global Poverty, is either a VAST reduction of Human Population, or a VAST increase of Energy.

'Green Energy' doesn't 'fit the bill', yet.

More than 1 billion of those people live in tropical countries. Plenty of sun there and for now their energy needs are relatively modest. Stick a bunch of solar panels on their roofs and see how far you'll get.

Also, we got a whole bunch of deserts. Just empty space that gets also plenty of sunlight. Again, stick the place full with solar panels. Otherwise its empty space anyways. Also, plenty of hills and wind. I'm sure we could build a bunch of windmills there to create more power.
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Message 1481340 - Posted: 24 Feb 2014, 19:32:09 UTC

CLYDE Said:
Oh I didn't understand. You change the name for "some idiots". Since there are ALWAYS "some idiots": Just keep changing words.


I Appreciate Their "Changes". Anything fO me(I am An IdiOt) tO Understand "Evidence". The "Facts" Escape Me unless I Am PrOperly InfOrmed with Dumbed DOwn 'splainin'.

NOw 'if' 'they' wOuld StOp WASTING MONEY on Green and Start Spending mOnies on WATER, 'it' wOuld make this IdiOt(me) Very Happy.

' '


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Message 1481511 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 2:33:15 UTC - in response to Message 1481321.  

You are the one exhaling the "Dirty" CO-2
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Message 1481519 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 4:24:32 UTC - in response to Message 1481331.  

Everything is relative.

You figure out how to increase living standards of 3.5 to 4 BILLION people in REAL poverty without cheap and abundant energy.

The problem with the 'Greenies' is they don't understand, or refuse to accept, that everything has consequences. That the ONLY solution to Global Poverty, is either a VAST reduction of Human Population, or a VAST increase of Energy.

'Green Energy' doesn't 'fit the bill', yet.

More than 1 billion of those people live in tropical countries. Plenty of sun there and for now their energy needs are relatively modest. Stick a bunch of solar panels on their roofs and see how far you'll get.

Also, we got a whole bunch of deserts. Just empty space that gets also plenty of sunlight. Again, stick the place full with solar panels. Otherwise its empty space anyways. Also, plenty of hills and wind. I'm sure we could build a bunch of windmills there to create more power.

Are you seriously thinking that placing Tens of Thousands of square miles Solar Panels over deserts, and Tens of Thousands of square miles of Solar Panels over the Tropical Rain Forests is Good?

Are you seriously thinking that disrupting The Earths Air Flow with Thousands/Millions of Wind Turbines is Good?

The proposed solution's are worse than the problems!
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton
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Message 1481531 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 5:49:15 UTC - in response to Message 1481331.  
Last modified: 25 Feb 2014, 5:51:52 UTC

Think you need to study climatology, electronics and energy storage systems before you make such suggestions.

questions 1. How do you keep the solar panels in the desert cool? 1a. How do you store this energy for use at nighttime? 1b. Are you totally confident that the energy collected is going to be greater than the energy to produce the solar panels?
2. Would large wind farms in the west and central Africa affect rainfall patterns in the east? 2a. If the rainfall in Eastern Africa was to be affected what would be the consequences?
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Message 1481544 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 6:22:30 UTC - in response to Message 1481519.  

...

Are you seriously thinking that disrupting The Earths Air Flow with Thousands/Millions of Wind Turbines is Good?

The proposed solution's are worse than the problems!


OMG I got tears in my eyes. OMG.

Well that the level of debate here I'm out. I'll go argue with my cat, she has more sense.

Thanks for the laugh though.
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Message 1481548 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 6:35:46 UTC

Rothamel Said:
You are the one exhaling the "Dirty" CO-2


Could yOu Math Dat Out fO me? Follow Up wif sum 'splainin' dat a Mere Idiot(me) can understand. Thank yOu.

Since Haf Da US is Dummies Like Me, exhaling 'Dirty' CO-2, I shO beeza worr'd 'bout da Air turnin' Green Gassy Like.

' '


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Message 1481584 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 9:14:15 UTC - in response to Message 1481519.  
Last modified: 25 Feb 2014, 9:21:04 UTC

Are you seriously thinking that placing Tens of Thousands of square miles Solar Panels over deserts, and Tens of Thousands of square miles of Solar Panels over the Tropical Rain Forests is Good?

Are you seriously thinking that disrupting The Earths Air Flow with Thousands/Millions of Wind Turbines is Good?

The proposed solution's are worse than the problems!

Not over the rain forest obviously. But desert? Well I don't see why that would be bad. And I doubt that wind turbines can actually change the air flow to such a significant extend.
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Message 1481585 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 9:20:26 UTC - in response to Message 1481531.  

Think you need to study climatology, electronics and energy storage systems before you make such suggestions.

questions 1. How do you keep the solar panels in the desert cool? 1a. How do you store this energy for use at nighttime? 1b. Are you totally confident that the energy collected is going to be greater than the energy to produce the solar panels?
2. Would large wind farms in the west and central Africa affect rainfall patterns in the east? 2a. If the rainfall in Eastern Africa was to be affected what would be the consequences?

It is already being done, so I guess thats already an issue that has been resolved. Furthermore, solar panels are at this stage so effective that they do produce more energy than is required to build them. How to store said energy? Giant batteries, or, and this is something they are trying in France, use excess electricity during the day to produce hydrogen, then use hydrogen to create electricity during moments when there is no sun.

As for wind farms, are the wind farms in the Netherlands and Germany changing the wind and rain patterns in Poland or Russia? I think you need significantly more and denser windmill parks before it has a noticeable effect on wind and rain patterns.
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Message 1481592 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 10:05:22 UTC - in response to Message 1481585.  

It is already being done, so I guess thats already an issue that has been resolved. Furthermore, solar panels are at this stage so effective that they do produce more energy than is required to build them. How to store said energy? Giant batteries, or, and this is something they are trying in France, use excess electricity during the day to produce hydrogen, then use hydrogen to create electricity during moments when there is no sun.

Or something like the facility at Dinorwig. There are plenty of options.

As for wind farms, are the wind farms in the Netherlands and Germany changing the wind and rain patterns in Poland or Russia? I think you need significantly more and denser windmill parks before it has a noticeable effect on wind and rain patterns.

Even if they did affect the weather (which i'm not convinced they do), if they got a bit more rain over East Africa they'd probably welcome it.
Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.
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Message 1481597 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 10:50:20 UTC - in response to Message 1481594.  

Liberals don't want to put solar panels out in the desert. It'll mess up the aesthetics, and it might disturb some turtles. So liberals block actions that make sense, like putting solar panels out in the desert.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/21/feinstein-seeks-to-block-_n_177646.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/22/business/energy-environment/22solar.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I am sure I can find a very long list of green energy proposals that have been blocked by conservatives. Do not make this a partisan issue, neither liberals nor conservatives will come out looking good.
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Message 1481617 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 12:20:26 UTC - in response to Message 1481597.  

I am sure I can find a very long list of green energy proposals that have been blocked by conservatives. Do not make this a partisan issue, neither liberals nor conservatives will come out looking good.

The difference is the Hypocrisy of the Green NIMBY's (Not In MY Back Yard).
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
--- George Santayana

Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
--- Lord Acton
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Message 1481661 - Posted: 25 Feb 2014, 20:49:54 UTC - in response to Message 1481617.  
Last modified: 25 Feb 2014, 20:50:18 UTC

"the only way to rectify our reasonings is to make them as tangible as those of the Mathematicians, so that we can find our error at a glance, and then when there are disputes among persons, we can simply say:"Let is calculate without further ado, to see who is right"

Gottfried Leibniz (1646-1716)

Let the Games begin !!
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Message boards : Politics : Climate Change, 'Greenhouse' effects: DENIAL


 
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