Both articles are talking about manufacturing costs and efficiency, not the amount of energy produced per square metre, or Euro/Dollar selling price.

So Rob what does ether article have to do with Climate change "Greenhouse" effects:DENIAL it seems to have more to do with cheap labour in Asia and the cost of manufacturing in those country's ?

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The implication of these articles is that for most users is that at true retail price, with efficiency corrected for location and installation type and without government subsidies for installation and/or buy-back price these panels are not cost effective.

The implication of these articles is that for most users is that at true retail price, with efficiency corrected for location and installation type and without government subsidies for installation and/or buy-back price these panels are not cost effective.

I think people forget solar panels will last as long as the house is standing and that could be 100 yrs and then when you look at the price it is still very cheap as electricy will continue to go up so after even 15yrs it makes cents

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The implication ... without government subsidies for installation and/or buy-back price these panels are not cost effective.

Which is also the same problem for fossil fuels.

Without the ongoing fiscal subsidies and without ignoring the costs of pollution, fossil fuels are actually badly more expensive than what we initially pay...


Your articles look more to be a complaint of China cornering the market for the present games of trade. There's certainly been some cynical profiteering installation cowboys pawning their tricks on shoddy installations, deliberately ignoring how good (or bad) their installations are. However, there are also good installations done which are worthwhile. Overall, hopefully we will get a beneficial side effect that green (non-polluting) energy gets a boost.


All on our only planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

The information I received from a German friend of mine, who has been given early retirement from Varta batteries because the development work he was working on has been cancelled due to the Siemens decision to pull out of the Solar panel business. Is that, ignoring wage and transport costs, the chinese panels were being imported into Europe and the USA for a price lower than Siemens could make them for when research and developement costs were included.

the last reason for the great barrier reef die ing is the crown of thorn's star fish which I believe is a introduced species

I am sure that Australia knows that brining in Tritons can vastly reduce the number of coral-munching starfish.

The reefs off of Cuba still thrive--mainly because they don't dump their waste stream into the ocean. They get the same atmosphere as the rest of the planet.

the last reason for the great barrier reef die ing is the crown of thorn's star fish which I believe is a introduced species

I am sure that Australia knows that brining in Tritons can vastly reduce the number of coral-munching starfish.

The reefs off of Cuba still thrive--mainly because they don't dump their waste stream into the ocean. They get the same atmosphere as the rest of the planet.

We get a lot of ore carrying ships that pass through the great barrier reef but because they empty there water tanks just outside the limit in international water there's not much that we can do . We have fined and even jailed a few captains for emptying there ballast tank in harbour not much else we can do but go out to the reefs and kill the dam things which has kept there numbers down.

As for your idea of bringing another animal here well that has been tried before and backfired so probly not a good idea and waste streams as you call them we don't dump waste anywhere in that area It's a marine reserve the biggest in the world

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the last reason for the great barrier reef die ing is the crown of thorn's star fish which I believe is a introduced species

I am sure that Australia knows that brining in Tritons can vastly reduce the number of coral-munching starfish.

The reefs off of Cuba still thrive--mainly because they don't dump their waste stream into the ocean. They get the same atmosphere as the rest of the planet.

We get a lot of ore carrying ships that pass through the great barrier reef but because they empty there water tanks just outside the limit in international water there's not much that we can do . We have fined and even jailed a few captains for emptying there ballast tank in harbour not much else we can do but go out to the reefs and kill the dam things which has kept there numbers down.

As for your idea of bringing another animal here well that has been tried before and backfired so probly not a good idea and waste streams as you call them we don't dump waste anywhere in that area It's a marine reserve the biggest in the world

One suggestion I heard was for countries to claim that reefs are part of the country and therefore the 12 mile limit is 12 miles fronm the reef.

I assume that would have to go to the UN and would take 100 years to get passed.

yes WinterKnight it would but the reef is over 1500+ klm long realy hard to petrol that much reef and the coral bleaching is not helping , water goes over 28c and the reef dies we have had at least two episodes of coral bleaching .

We need to stop the climate from getting hotter or it mite not be there in 20yrs
We here in oz are getting the most effects of climate change and sea level rises .

Goto N.A.S.A 's Earth views 3d and see for yourself

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/3d_resources/index.html

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Just a reminder that the 'Global Warming / Climate Change' does NOT mean nice warm summers for everyone. I doubt that anyone in their lifetime would personally 'feel' the change in average temperatures that we're talking about.

What the 'Global Warming / Climate Change' does mean is a radical shift in weather patterns and more extreme weather.

Any one singular weather event is not proof of anything. However, 'anomalous' extreme events like this do seem to be getting ever more frequent:


Snow and winds of 65mph hit Devon and Cornwall

Snow has fallen in parts of Devon in what has been described as "fairly unusual" weather for May.

Winds of up to 65mph also struck the South West coast overnight with a number of trees coming down, some blocking roads.

Western Power Distribution said homes in Cornwall were still without power after thousands were cut off overnight.

Fourteen flood alerts are also still in place in the two counties following heavy rain on Monday.

Sheila Coates, from Princetown, told BBC Radio Devon: "It's crazy. When I went to bed last night I couldn't see out of my front window for the snow.

"I've lived here all my life and I've never known weather like it at this time of year." ...



All on our only planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Here's a radio program excerpt that should warm to the hearts of all denialists:


Has global warming stalled?

On Thursday 9 May, a measurement of the daily average atmospheric carbon dioxide exceeded 400 parts per million.

Last time CO2 was this high was three to five million years ago, when it was so hot that crocodiles roamed the Arctic.

Scientists thought that this rise would have an impact on climate change and temperatures would be driven steadily upwards by rising CO2, but figures show that they been at a standstill since 1998.

The BBC's environment analyst Roger Harrabin hears from climate sceptics who are saying they were right to question the science behind global warming. ...



All a recklessly grand experiment? Really?!

All on our only planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Here's a radio program excerpt that should warm to the hearts of all denialists:


Has global warming stalled?

On Thursday 9 May, a measurement of the daily average atmospheric carbon dioxide exceeded 400 parts per million.

Last time CO2 was this high was three to five million years ago, when it was so hot that crocodiles roamed the Arctic.

Scientists thought that this rise would have an impact on climate change and temperatures would be driven steadily upwards by rising CO2, but figures show that they been at a standstill since 1998.

The BBC's environment analyst Roger Harrabin hears from climate sceptics who are saying they were right to question the science behind global warming. ...



All a recklessly grand experiment? Really?!

All on our only planet,
Martin

Sorry Ml1 but I'm not shore what side your on in this post so I am not having a go at you ,The show's reporter is interviewing sceptics
what else is a sceptic going to say otherwise they wouldn't be a sceptic if there data is right witch I doubt very much as it's the first time I've heard in 15yrs that the temp has stalled then I would have to see the data myself. Why has the north pole melted so much , why is the Antarctic peninsula been warming up faster than anywhere else .why have we had year after year of hotter summers and record temps . That radio program I think is there to make a head line and is full of B/s wouldn't surprise me if BBC where even payed or sponsored or told that certain advertising would be pulled if they didn't have a program saying the opposite of what they may had over the last couple months .

I say be sceptical of the sceptics

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... I say be sceptical of the sceptics

Indeed so.

That program is a good example of 'skeptical pandering'. The saving grace for some sort of balance are the science and personal comments left right at the very end. The sensationalist message is that we are all being reckless to race blithely into a world-wide experiment of such dangerous change.

There is truth in all of that. The confusion and question left dangling is for where the balance balances... You might need to play through the radio report twice or so to pick out all the points. "Lord Monckton" sounds as kooky as ever for anyone who has come across him previously!


With the vast pollution we're spewing out, we've very definitely upset the natural balance of the last few million years.

All on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

This about Canada, and the development of the oil sands in Alberta.

Banned on the Hill


What is Harper afraid of? Would Joe Oliver Eat Athabasca Fish? Oliver is Canada's natural resources minister.


FroJoe Oliver says: 'I am not a scientist'

This about Canada, and the development of the oil sands in Alberta.

Banned on the Hill

... FroJoe Oliver says: 'I am not a scientist'

Thanks for that.


Mmmm... Golf ball sized tumors on river fish - yummy?...

Political adversity to being called Dirty?...


So how many (Canadian) Denialists can be fought off?

Only on our only one planet,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Is there anything they can't blame on "Climate Change ???
Kangaroo Scrotums Are the New Victims of Global Warming

T.A.

I blame it all on over population. And it will only get worse until nature steps in and kills most of us because we can't find a politically correct way to curb our desire to make children. And by the way I don't have a workable answer either.

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Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

I blame it all on over population. And it will only get worse until nature steps in and kills most of us because we can't find a politically correct way to curb our desire to make children. And by the way I don't have a workable answer either.

Definitely "The Elephant In The Room" that no politician wants to seriously discuss.

T.A.

We do know there is climate change, we can see the ozone holes growing, and we can see vast chunks breaking off from ice shelves, plus Co2 levels rising. But what we don't know, is how much of that is man made. The earth has had ice ages and min-ice ages in the past and other warmer times in between. The most severe ice age of the last billion years, occurred from 850 to 630 million years ago (the Cryogenian period) and may have produced glacial ice sheets reaching the equator,

The last major ice age peaked 21,000 years ago, and ended 11,000 years ago, where the ice reached the UK Midlands. That is why NW Scotland is rising out of the sea, and Kent is sinking, due to the weight of ice being removed. The last mini ice age was from 1300-1850 where the river Thames froze over and they held frost fairs on it in London. We are now living in an interglacial warmer period, and further ice ages will probably occur in the future. In fact a lot of experts are claiming that we are heading for another mini ice age right now.Next ice age

Chris some of the time I have highlighted was because of volcanoes . Like Crackatoea and some others that put a lot of ash in the Atmosphere while your part of the world has had mini ice ages I think you will find it did not affect other parts of the world . Your area is governed by the gulf stream and the jet stream which has been known to move . What we see happening now is much different .

Also the snow ball effect that you are talking about 850 -600 million years ago also happened 500 million and 250 million yrs ago I believe it happened 3 times in early earth history and each time it lasted between 25-50 million year intervals but I also think you will find there where unusual reasons for it remember life was still very primate back then and so where the plants also the continents where joined up into bigger pieces so the sea currents were different none of which can account for what we are seeing now .

One of the misconceptions with Global warming is that is will continue to get hotter but I think you will find that the opposite will happen . We will get to a point where it will stop getting hotter and suddenly go into a ice age and when I say suddenly I mean like in a 50yr period

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This is the million dollar question, how much of our current global warming
phase effect is down to nature and how much down to those contributions made by
humans. The answer is, "No one knows", but if you think you have discovered the
answer to this question, and your scientifically proved to be correct, you will
win your self a Nobel prize.

The last mini ice age was from 1300-1850 where the river Thames froze over and they held frost fairs on it in London.

Glen, the span 1300 - 1850 (550 years) I think is a bout 200 - 250 years too long.
The mini warming and cooling phases tend to last for around 300 years in time,
in the UK anyway, but can be longer on the continent. The one main reason why
the Thames froze over, other than it being cold enough then, was because the
flow of this river was slower due to bridge construction obstructions during
those times. It was evident by scholarly observations that the climate in the
UK was turning much milder by 1814 so it looks likely that a new phase of global
warming had already set in by 1814 if not even earlier.

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The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.