Nah, first you ...

... Must must appreciate just how vaguely worded that part of the USA law is and how a good (vindictive or career desperate?) attorney can twist the argument any way desired...

All with the vast resource of the USA government to destroy the victims everyday life for many months/years before any hope of any trial...


Only in the USA?
Martin

Well then your hero should not have gone to another campus with his little laptop that had been altered. So he could steal more JSTOR files.

---

[/quote]

Old James

Nah, first you ...

... Must must appreciate just how vaguely worded that part of the USA law is and how a good (vindictive or career desperate?) attorney can twist the argument any way desired...

All with the vast resource of the USA government to destroy the victims everyday life for many months/years before any hope of any trial...


Only in the USA?
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

i have read a number of article's on this and from what i gather, if i had a nic go

bad and replaced it changing my mac number and my dynamically allocated ip address

changed as they sometimes do i would have been guilty of one of the charges in

this case this is how lousily the statute is worded.

Nah, first you would have had to have had the old mac number and IP blocked for abuse, then a log entry showing you got a blocked message, followed a couple minutes later with another attempt with a new mac and IP.

---

Martin's refusal to look at and admit the facts of the case, frankly reminds me of the self deluded fervor of a Ufologist claiming to have been kidnapped and anal probed. They have a conclusion predetermined and will not allow facts to get in the way of their delusion. I can see that in many of his posts in other threads in politics. This is unfortunate as occasionally he does have some good information to impart, but most people will have long ago decided to ignore him or class him as a troll.

---

i have read a number of article's on this and from what i gather, if i had a nic go bad and replaced it changing my mac number and my dynamically allocated ip address changed as they sometimes do i would have been guilty of one of the charges in this case this is how lousily the statute is worded.

That goes for any nic where the firmware is updated and changes the MAC address which then acquires a new IP address... As happens I believe for some laptops/mobile hardware.

Hence run an update, by the law of the USA you must be locked away for 35+ years.

Also note that Aaron was no 'guest'. He rightly had full access as a member. No 'hacking' needed. I would expect anyone in the academic community to expect to have full access in any case in the name of Science.


All just?

Only in the USA?
Martin

You need to go back and read the #9 paragraph. It clearly states Swartz was not affiliated at all with MIT.

Edit- Swartz was a fellow at Harvard Uni's Safra center for Ethics ( how ironic ) And Harvard provided Swartz with access to JSTOR services.
So why did he go to MIT ? Simple he was going to rip JSTOR off thats why.

---

[/quote]

Old James

i have read a number of article's on this and from what i gather, if i had a nic go bad and replaced it changing my mac number and my dynamically allocated ip address changed as they sometimes do i would have been guilty of one of the charges in this case this is how lousily the statute is worded.

That goes for any nic where the firmware is updated and changes the MAC address which then acquires a new IP address... As happens I believe for some laptops/mobile hardware.

Hence run an update, by the law of the USA you must be locked away for 35+ years.

Also note that Aaron was no 'guest'. He rightly had full access as a member. No 'hacking' needed. I would expect anyone in the academic community to expect to have full access in any case in the name of Science.


All just?

Only in the USA?
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

i have read a number of article's on this and from what i gather, if i had a nic go

bad and replaced it changing my mac number and my dynamically allocated ip address

changed as they sometimes do i would have been guilty of one of the charges in

this case this is how lousily the statute is worded.

---

Now try actually reading the articles.

Find one written by someone who understands the subject matter.
Hint: After the name of the author will appear JD.

---

BULL COOKIES. First of all why would I hack into any internet forum when I can just join it. As long as I follow that forums TOS I am afforded the privallge of partaking that forums discourse.

All just a question of proportion and interpretation. Now argue your case against your government prosecutor demanding 35+ years of your life, taking 18 months to do it, all very expensive, and all for the sake of a positive career jump for the prosecutors...

And he ddint have unlimited access. He had limited acceess that he abused for two months by using aliases and other such means.
And now you state that there were others involved in this. Well now that puts a whole new spin on this case. Sounds like a group of like minded hackers who wanted to steal documents. And in your own quote you state software was written for Gonzales to use. HACKERS!!!!!!!
Sorry Martin you can not justify such actions and blame US law.

Now try actually reading the articles.


Only in the USA?

Land of the free or a land of those who can pay their lawyers fees?

Only in the USA?
Martin

I suggest you read the grand jury indictment. The first two pages state that for a fee you can access Jstor only 14 times a year. And that you abide by copyright laws.

I have read the articles maybe you should also.

Heres is the link so its easy for you. grandjuryindictment

I stand corrected MIT only allowed guest 14 visits to Jstor.

---

[/quote]

Old James

... you can not justify such actions and blame US law.

It takes people to implement and use or abuse whatever laws against other people.

For this case, it looks to me like the USA has some "catch all and anyone and anything" laws that can be so vaguely interpreted that you all become 35 years+ felons.


Extreme or what?

Only in the USA?...
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

BULL COOKIES. First of all why would I hack into any internet forum when I can just join it. As long as I follow that forums TOS I am afforded the privallge of partaking that forums discourse.

All just a question of proportion and interpretation. Now argue your case against your government prosecutor demanding 35+ years of your life, taking 18 months to do it, all very expensive, and all for the sake of a positive career jump for the prosecutors...

And he ddint have unlimited access. He had limited acceess that he abused for two months by using aliases and other such means.
And now you state that there were others involved in this. Well now that puts a whole new spin on this case. Sounds like a group of like minded hackers who wanted to steal documents. And in your own quote you state software was written for Gonzales to use. HACKERS!!!!!!!
Sorry Martin you can not justify such actions and blame US law.

Now try actually reading the articles.


Only in the USA?

Land of the free or a land of those who can pay their lawyers fees?

Only in the USA?
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Judge for yourselves:

"There is no justice in following unjust laws," ... "We need to take information, wherever it is stored, make our copies and share them with the world."

- Aaron Swartz


Outrageous injustice?


Attorney General's testimony on Aaron Swartz raises more questions than answers

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder this week strained to convince Senators that federal prosecutors exercised "good prosecutorial discretion" in handling the indictment of 26-year-old Aaron Swartz. Yet his testimony before the Senate Judiciary committee raised more questions than it answered. ...

... At a broader level, the exchange between the Attorney General and the Judiciary Committee shines a spotlight on inconsistencies in the justice system. Cyber criminals often seem to face disproportionately aggressive prosecution and sentencing -- while major financial institutions that had a role in creating the financial crisis remain, by the attorney general's own admission, untouchable. ...

... "Does it strike you as odd that the government would indict someone for crimes that would carry penalties of up to 35 years in prison and million dollar fines and then offer him a three- or four-month prison sentence?"

Holder side-stepped the question...

... Holder's assurances didn't satisfy Cornyn, and understandably so. Consider what Swartz allegedly did: He entered a server room on the MIT campus, connected his computer to the network, and used his legitimate, unlimited access to JSTOR to download 4.8 million documents. He didn't actually hack anything. He didn't make and distribute illegal copies. The worst thing Swartz may have done is trespass. ...


White House Owes Response To Petition To Fire Prosecutor Of Aaron Swartz And Other Hackers

U.S. assistant attorney Stephen Heymann built his career taking on hackers in computer crime cases. Now at least 25,000 people believe he took one such case too far...

... Another petition calling for the dismissal of Heymann’s boss, U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz, quickly reached more than 52,000 signatures in the days following Swartz’s suicide. ...

... Heymann received a Department of Justice award for his convictions of five defendants in the case, which included a 15-year sentence for the most active member of the team, Alberto Gonzalez. But the case’s outcome was also controversial: One defendant, Stephen Watt, was sentenced to two years in prison despite claiming to have merely written one element of the software Gonzalez used. Another hacker involved in the case, Jonathan James, committed suicide. ...



Note that by the same rules, very likely you can be argued yourselves to be just as guilty by just merely 'hacking' onto any internet forums...


Only in the USA?
Martin

BULL COOKIES. First of all why would I hack into any internet forum when I can just join it. As long as I follow that forums TOS I am afforded the privallge of partaking that forums discourse.

And he ddint have unlimited access. He had limited acceess that he abused for two months by using aliases and other such means.
And now you state that there were others involved in this. Well now that puts a whole new spin on this case. Sounds like a group of like minded hackers who wanted to steal documents. And in your own quote you state software was written for Gonzales to use. HACKERS!!!!!!!
Sorry Martin you can not justify such actions and blame US law.

---

[/quote]

Old James

Judge for yourselves:

"There is no justice in following unjust laws," ... "We need to take information, wherever it is stored, make our copies and share them with the world."

- Aaron Swartz


Outrageous injustice?


Attorney General's testimony on Aaron Swartz raises more questions than answers

U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder this week strained to convince Senators that federal prosecutors exercised "good prosecutorial discretion" in handling the indictment of 26-year-old Aaron Swartz. Yet his testimony before the Senate Judiciary committee raised more questions than it answered. ...

... At a broader level, the exchange between the Attorney General and the Judiciary Committee shines a spotlight on inconsistencies in the justice system. Cyber criminals often seem to face disproportionately aggressive prosecution and sentencing -- while major financial institutions that had a role in creating the financial crisis remain, by the attorney general's own admission, untouchable. ...

... "Does it strike you as odd that the government would indict someone for crimes that would carry penalties of up to 35 years in prison and million dollar fines and then offer him a three- or four-month prison sentence?"

Holder side-stepped the question...

... Holder's assurances didn't satisfy Cornyn, and understandably so. Consider what Swartz allegedly did: He entered a server room on the MIT campus, connected his computer to the network, and used his legitimate, unlimited access to JSTOR to download 4.8 million documents. He didn't actually hack anything. He didn't make and distribute illegal copies. The worst thing Swartz may have done is trespass. ...


White House Owes Response To Petition To Fire Prosecutor Of Aaron Swartz And Other Hackers

U.S. assistant attorney Stephen Heymann built his career taking on hackers in computer crime cases. Now at least 25,000 people believe he took one such case too far...

... Another petition calling for the dismissal of Heymann’s boss, U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz, quickly reached more than 52,000 signatures in the days following Swartz’s suicide. ...

... Heymann received a Department of Justice award for his convictions of five defendants in the case, which included a 15-year sentence for the most active member of the team, Alberto Gonzalez. But the case’s outcome was also controversial: One defendant, Stephen Watt, was sentenced to two years in prison despite claiming to have merely written one element of the software Gonzalez used. Another hacker involved in the case, Jonathan James, committed suicide. ...



Note that by the same rules, very likely you can be argued yourselves to be just as guilty by just merely 'hacking' onto any internet forums...


Only in the USA?
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Apparently Martin is under the impression that only the US Federal Government funds scientific research that is printed in scientific journals.

---

One small ripple:


Obama to make research results publicly available

... With its initiative, Washington generally wants to ensure that actual scientific research data becomes as available as possible to the public, to industry and to the research community with as few barriers as possible. This could encourage innovative breakthroughs and promote the economy, said the White House. ...


And someone had to die for that?


All on our only world,
Martin

So what if the president said it. He has to follow the law just like every other U.S. citizen. Just because he states what he wants to happen dosent mean that it will .

laws dont get overhauled on whims. Big money by powerfull men made political contrabutions to get those laws made. I dont see any changes coming soon.

And nobody had to die. Your man quit. That was his choice.

---

[/quote]

Old James

One small ripple:


Obama to make research results publicly available

... With its initiative, Washington generally wants to ensure that actual scientific research data becomes as available as possible to the public, to industry and to the research community with as few barriers as possible. This could encourage innovative breakthroughs and promote the economy, said the White House. ...


And someone had to die for that?


All on our only world,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

in the us copy write if you follow the rules and recopy write is for ever.

so copy write law in the us badly needs an overhaul.

the music industry is literally running out of new note configurations that are

copy writable.

this is not about piracy it is about loss of control.

the powers that be in this country do not what to loss control damn the cost

or even what it does to the economy,if it disrupts business and makes research

impossible that is ok too.

---

The funniest thing that happened there was, photo's of the said device were required. So I took the office DSLR, they were very new at that stage, ~£2,000 just for the body, and used those mini card disc drives. When we got back, the camera and all the drives had to go into the safe, and only came out a few months later after the camera was cleared by the Ministry security guru. The drives he just got a hammer from his car and destroyed them, totally.

WK, been there and done it. For a while in my job as a Computer Support Manager with a public utility, I had to upgrade a certain Department that dealt with Government security. And yes, the new machines had to have removable caddies so that the hard disks could be put in secure fire safes overnight. And you couldn't get in or out of the office without prior authorisation and a personal escort. Pretty much standard procedure in those circumstances.

The thing about about the Manning case that gets me is, "How the hell was he able to do it." and why haven't we heard that someone has been punished for allowing it to happen.

I spent over 25 years dealing with UK and NATO secret equipments and paperwork, and then after that doing work for similar organisations.

The office for the last jobs, could only be entered if you where cleared and needed to be in there. Even our adminstrative bosses were not allowed access. The computers had no floppies, cd drives and the in/out ports were disabled, we had our own separate server and no connection to the internet. Anything that went in or out of the office was recorded by at least two people and had a paper trail miles long recording who and where it had come from or was going to. And if you left the building you had to remove the caddy mounted HDD and store it in the fire proof safe.