The Gender Wars

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Profile Gary Charpentier Crowdfunding Project Donor*Special Project $75 donorSpecial Project $250 donor
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Message 1324150 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 16:34:06 UTC

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=70295&postid=1320340
and trust me..work places are actually LESS sympathetic to women who take time off for kids. Surprising I know, but sadly true.

A female manager who shall remain nameless ...
"What do you mean you have to take you kid to the doctor, that's what your wife is supposed to do. I'm not giving it to you."
"I'm going to fire her for getting pregnant."
A male manager had to countermand in each case.

Continuing, the woman who was to be fired just put in a request for time off to go to the doctor. Female manager - who never had kids - says, "Did you see this?", waving the request, "I bet she is pregnant again! It is about the right time, 18 months."

Management is utterly clueless.

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Message 1324264 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 18:24:49 UTC - in response to Message 1322526.  


Was the other mother having a dig a him or you ? Also, why would you dress him in pink knowing it could lead to trouble from the "less enlightened" ?

Didn't you earlier make the point that 2 year olds are pretty determined about what they want? So are 3 year olds. Why should I re-enforce stereotypes that I disagree with?

Why do you think the other mother was having a dig at me? Is this another "cat fight" comment?


Funny how pick on that one word yet ignore the point that was made in the rest of the paragraph. Why ?

It's not funny at all. If you don't know why I stopped paying attention to you at that point you really don't get it.


Now who's Stereotyping ?

Again, you really don't see whats around you do you? Just like the person that complains that toast always lands butter side down. Well some of us notice that the toast lands either way, and some of us are aware that the times that we are more likely to remember are the ones where the toast is ruined.


My guess. Because both are aware that women and men communicate differently so they back off into a more Neutral mode.

I genuinely don't understand what you are saying here. You need to clarify.


At the age of 6 is the desire to "pretty up" and dress as a princess or fairy Nature or Nurture ? Whose fantasy are they living out, theirs or their parents ?

I think you are overestimating the influence of parents and underestimating the influence of TV, Advertising, Peer pressure etc etc etc

Why is it that at the same age a lot of boys go through a fascination with dinosaurs ?

My kids did not (I have two boys), despite my efforts to take them to all the museums and buy them dinosaur toys. Some kids like them, some like other things. Why are you so fixed on it being decided my gender and not by the individual child? Oddly enough I still haven't got over my fascination with dinosaurs. They are awesome.


No. It's about the commonalities that exist across background, class and environment. It's saying that for some characteristics, background, class, environment and even orientation are irrelevant.

No, your examples show that gender stereotypes are universal and pervasive.


Once again you miss the point. In this paragraph I made no mention of role models. The point was, that even at two years old certain things are "hard wired".

No, you've missed the point. The things that are hard wired are not the things you are claiming are hard wired. I am trying to tell you this from a position of someone who has studied child psychology and human development at university. I am basing what I am telling you on peer reviewed studies. Not on my experience as a woman which I am aware holds no weight here.


Where in any of my posts have I even inferred that there are "correct" gender roles ? What I have been saying is that men and women have hard wired predispositions to act in certain ways, that they "process data" differently and that this leads to communication difficulties and the so called "Gender Wars".

What I am trying to tell you that although there it has been shown that there are "hard wired" differences between men and women, they are only slight. You get the whole bell curve of range of human behaviour from both genders. In fact there is very little difference between girls and boys before they hit puberty, which is when the hormones make changes in the brain chemistry. Before then the differences are not as large as you are claiming, but are exaggerated by upbringing.

These are not a new thing, they have been going on at least since the days of Ancient Greece and probably much earlier.

Lots of things aren't new. Doesn't mean they are correct.

In fact to a degree you have proved my point. It's totally obvious from some of your answers that you have not read what I've typed. :-)

I read exactly what you typed, and based on what I know about actual research that has been done in this area I decided you had missed the point. I then helpfully tried to correct you, but you simply wouldn't have it.


No. The main inspiration for this thread was watching some married friends having an argument. When it came to the crunch they were actually agreeing with each other but because of the communication difficulties due the way men and women use language neither could see it.

There might be differences, but how much are "hard wired" and how much are because we raise men and women differently?


Probably for the same reason it is much more socially acceptable for a woman to be a single parent than a man. Women are equally as guilty as men in these two attitudes. There are a lot of women that think a man is incapable of raising children, particularly daughters. (As the single father of a girl and two boys for 10 years I can speak from experience.)

T.A.

..and Bingo. Now you understand how stupid those stereotypes are. I am quite sure that you were able to be just as nurturing with your children and did a fine job of raising them. It is only pervasive stereotypes that tell everyone different. I never had the chance to raise daughters, but I raised two sons and both were very different. One has been extremely hard work to raise, one has been a delight (so far). Both boys. Both with all the human traits that I have seen in both genders.

Between them they like guns, trains and fluffy bunnies, cuddly toys and war games. They both adore the cat, one is very good with little children, one is not. They like cuddles when they are sick. They can both be very thoughtful and one has a real eye for design (he lets me know when I am dressed weirdly), both are excellent at math and art. One likes cooking. Even people who have met them would not guess which traits belonged to which son just by looking. Which of these traits are female? Which are male? and why should it matter?
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Message 1324265 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 18:28:37 UTC - in response to Message 1324150.  

http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/forum_thread.php?id=70295&postid=1320340
and trust me..work places are actually LESS sympathetic to women who take time off for kids. Surprising I know, but sadly true.

A female manager who shall remain nameless ...
"What do you mean you have to take you kid to the doctor, that's what your wife is supposed to do. I'm not giving it to you."
"I'm going to fire her for getting pregnant."
A male manager had to countermand in each case.

Continuing, the woman who was to be fired just put in a request for time off to go to the doctor. Female manager - who never had kids - says, "Did you see this?", waving the request, "I bet she is pregnant again! It is about the right time, 18 months."

Management is utterly clueless.

It sounds like someone who has taken on the old patriarchal ideas about women because they think this is how to get ahead. When someone behaves like this they have internalised their oppression. She is in for a real shock if and when she ever decides to have children.
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Message 1324297 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 19:27:57 UTC - in response to Message 1324278.  

Well we would need to know if she is single or married, and her age group, before we could really make any more realistic judgements.


I don't think behaving like an arsehole is dependent on your marital status or your age.
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Message 1324311 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 19:43:07 UTC - in response to Message 1324265.  

[/quote]It sounds like someone who has taken on the old patriarchal ideas about women because they think this is how to get ahead. When someone behaves like this they have internalised their oppression. She is in for a real shock if and when she ever decides to have children.[/quote]
The hot flashes are long over.

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Message 1324332 - Posted: 3 Jan 2013, 20:09:33 UTC - in response to Message 1324309.  

Hey you, I'm trying to agree with you! No of course it isn't. But for example, if she is unmarried in her 50's them maybe she has a chip on her shoulder about never finding a man and having kids of her own.


*Facepalm*

<sarcasm> Because a woman without a man can't be happy.</sarcasm>

Chris, I was "without a man" for quite sometime. I was quite happy with that side of things. It is very possible to be happy without a man. It is very possible (in my experience) to be much happier without a man than with one. It does depend entirely on the man in question.

What I found odd was that when I did "find a man" I was told that it must me so much better for me to have a man now. Some things are better, some are worse. I have to negotiate everything with someone else and can't just go and do as I please anymore. Fortunately I like the particular man I am with enough to overlook that side of things.

What I wasn't happy with having to shoulder the entire burden of child rearing. As far as I was aware my kids still had two parents, even if I had had enough of living with him. You don't stop being a parent just because you no longer live with the mother of the children.

The particular man I am with has taken on the role of helping rear another man's children. That is a quality of him as a person that I like. It isn't necessarily a quality of him just because he is a man. I have taken on the role of helping him rear another woman's children. I gained extra sons. Not easy.

So I am not happier just because I have a man now. I am happier because I have someone who behaves like an adult and also likes to come and see the latest Tarantino movies with me.

If she is married and in her 30's maybe she has chosen not to have kids, and objects to those that do. We just don't know her motives for her apparent unpleasant behaviour. Not that any of that is any excuse for it.


Or maybe like the boss that did it to me, she kept having miscarriages. Who knows? You are right that there is no excuse for it.

What you have highlighted is why some women blame other woman for their misfortune.

Talking of Tarantino movies, I suggest you go and see his latest one. The character Samuel L. Jackson plays might throw some light on this particular conversation.
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Message 1324473 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 5:37:52 UTC

When I was 15 I worked for a fast food restaurant with 2 other friends

we had a black female manager.

She was not a niece person to work for, so we started calling my friend who's

name was Imenager I'm a nager this pissed her off.

we did not do this because she was black there was another black manager

we did not do this because she was female there was another female manager

we did this because she was a bad manager.

To judge some one by any other criteria than how they act is silly

you loss to many potential friends that way.


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Message 1324490 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 7:51:58 UTC - in response to Message 1324332.  

Hey you, I'm trying to agree with you! No of course it isn't. But for example, if she is unmarried in her 50's them maybe she has a chip on her shoulder about never finding a man and having kids of her own.


*Facepalm*

<sarcasm> Because a woman without a man can't be happy.</sarcasm>

In this instance I think that Chris is taking the the "old fashioned" view that a woman needs to be married to have children. The real point is the lady's attitude could have been due to not having had children of her own.

Hearing "the ticking of the biological clock" has become a recognised cause of stress in childless female executives in their late 30's, early 40's and some go to extreme lengths to beat it.

Chris, I was "without a man" for quite sometime. I was quite happy with that side of things. It is very possible to be happy without a man. It is very possible (in my experience) to be much happier without a man than with one.


As this works for both sexes I totally agree with you on this one. Once the "honeymoon period" is over even a "good" relationship has its moments and both parties have to work to keep it together. This is possibly why a lot of childless people these days are going for "friends with benefits" arrangements rather than full time relationships.

Isn't there a female joke that says "The only reason to keep a man around the house is to change lightbulbs and kill spiders" ?

The "gender wars" are a two way street

T.A.
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Message 1324651 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 18:17:18 UTC - in response to Message 1324490.  

A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle thinking?


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Message 1324727 - Posted: 4 Jan 2013, 22:56:44 UTC - in response to Message 1324651.  

A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle thinking?


Something like that.

Feminism took women out of the kitchen and into the workplace (although for most of history they never left). Women were meant to be able to have everything a man had. A fulfilling career and a family.

However, this meant that men were supposed to take up some of the traditional women's roles. Such as help with the domestic arrangements and the childrearing.

Not enough men did this (and who can blame them, traditional women's work is pretty much all the crap that no one else wants to do) and women found themselves having to be superwomen doing it all. Which is impossible. They also discovered that as they were now earning, the men who refused to adapt to this new paradigm became pretty much useless. It was easier for a woman in a lot of instances to remain single.

In the instances where men are able to adapt and take on more traditionally female roles, both parties in the relationship thrive.
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Message 1324753 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 1:07:52 UTC

Really done here.
There is a reason that all things gender related all go to the men.

Sperm freaking rules. Selects everything. Gender, the wonders of life, full bag of toys, where did my Mom go, 6++.

My mom had alcohol problems........
Very bad.
So, I was born with certain, shall we say, a couple of screws loose.
Yes, I can admit and convey that now........even though is is NOT politically correct to admit so. I am socially inconvienienced..........
I can't seem to relate to some of you unless I am six sheets.

Now, perhaps you know.
"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

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Message 1324759 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 1:55:56 UTC

It has been, unfortunately, socially acceptable for people to share widely and loudly with others their mental illnesses and other such things. I blame 1/2 of the Seattle grunge music movement.
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Message 1324803 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 5:15:27 UTC

Between contraception and the subsidy of women with children there is a hole

generation of neets in japan and Nintendo kids in the US were young men do not

even try to com-peat for women in there life because they know they won't be

chosen, not when they see the girls that are available choosing the same short

list of guy's that because they can treat women badly.
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Message 1324816 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 6:18:06 UTC - in response to Message 1324803.  

Between contraception and the subsidy of women with children there is a hole

generation of neets in japan and Nintendo kids in the US were young men do not

even try to com-peat for women in there life because they know they won't be

chosen, not when they see the girls that are available choosing the same short

list of guy's that because they can treat women badly.

lol
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Message 1324819 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 6:28:52 UTC - in response to Message 1324816.  

Between contraception and the subsidy of women with children there is a hole

generation of neets in japan and Nintendo kids in the US were young men do not

even try to com-peat for women in there life because they know they won't be

chosen, not when they see the girls that are available choosing the same short

list of guy's that because they can treat women badly.

lol


I am not joking many women date men solely because other women are dating them

men not dating are automatically suspect.
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Message 1324821 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 6:35:49 UTC - in response to Message 1324819.  

Between contraception and the subsidy of women with children there is a hole

generation of neets in japan and Nintendo kids in the US were young men do not

even try to com-peat for women in there life because they know they won't be

chosen, not when they see the girls that are available choosing the same short

list of guy's that because they can treat women badly.

lol


I am not joking many women date men solely because other women are dating them

men not dating are automatically suspect.

uh huh...and I am sure they keep telling themselves that.
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Message 1324829 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 7:55:49 UTC - in response to Message 1324821.  

Between contraception and the subsidy of women with children there is a hole

generation of neets in japan and Nintendo kids in the US were young men do not

even try to com-peat for women in there life because they know they won't be

chosen, not when they see the girls that are available choosing the same short

list of guy's that because they can treat women badly.

lol


I am not joking many women date men solely because other women are dating them

men not dating are automatically suspect.

uh huh...and I am sure they keep telling themselves that.


Think again, Es.
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Message 1324997 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 17:55:54 UTC - in response to Message 1324829.  



Think again, Es.

What I think is that men haven't caught on to the fact that they need to raise their game. Things have changed and they have to offer a little more than just being a good breadwinner.

They might also have to re-examine their expectations and their approach.
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Message 1325012 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 18:11:15 UTC - in response to Message 1324997.  

& treating them as equals helps.
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Message 1325060 - Posted: 5 Jan 2013, 20:57:09 UTC

So, you (plural) think ALL men that are single are single because all they do/say is "look, I can win you bread" and do not treat women as equals?
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Message boards : Politics : The Gender Wars


 
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