Nah, I think this horse has been sufficiently beat to death.

---

Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

For me the paired terms good and evil imply some kind of intention judged under a moral or ethics code. So they require an abstract judgement and as I dont know of any other species able to make that kind of abstractions then good and evil wont exist without men.

If the terms were good and bad, then, instead of intention it gives me the idea of convenience or achivement, and while that's something relative, it doesnt imply a judgement: beeing hunted by a predator will be a bad thing for the prey and a good thing for the hunter, no matter if there is man there to judge.

(Disclaimer: English its not my main languaje and then it could be that Im giving wrong/mixed meannings to the words good, bad and evil...but anyway I think that the concepts are still valid)

---

If we assume that both good and evil exist, this would be based on an assumption about religion and faith and its existence beyond our own beliefs.

I do not believe you must invoke religion to find ethics or morality. (Morality is a loaded word as to most it implies a god. So I use ethics. My dictionary says both are study of right and wrong or good and evil.) I realize that many who believe in religion can not fathom that ethics could exist without invoking a god to define it. I will point out a rule from a godless person; Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself - Confucius. Or perhaps another: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one - Spock. It should be obvious that invoking a god is not a requirement to have ethics.

If you believe that God must exist for there to be right and wrong or good and evil, asking if it exists without man is moot. God could have chosen to never create man.

If you accept that it is man who defines right and wrong or good and evil then it is a question if they exist without man. Perhaps in some ET civilization.

---

Christian principles

? Do you mean Cuneiform Law upon which most [western] moral codes are patterned?

---

> For those who do not believe in religion, there are not supposed to be laws which tells what to do or not to do when it comes to the same moral and ethics. For some reason such people can still be good scientists though and able to carry out great work as well as many other things as well. Such people are neither capable of believing in neither a God as well as any devils which may be on the loose and lurking around in the streets.

Not believing in God does not mean an atheist does not believe in right and wrong or morals. I think most atheists still have a sense of right and wrong. I actually think there is a strong need for religion in the world as long as it is not a vehicle for hatred and world dominance.

---

Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

For those who do not believe in religion, there are not supposed to be laws which tells what to do or not to do when it comes to the same moral and ethics. For some reason such people still can be good scientists though, as well as many other things as well. Such people are neither capable of believing in neither a God as well as any devils which may be on the loose and lurking around.

People can still choose to live by Christian principles, if they see them as a reasonable way to behave. They no not, however, need to believe in God. That is what upsets the religious adherents.

> Can good and evil exist without man?

> Simple question. Is man a requirement for good and evil to exist?

That was Gary Charpentier's words.

If we assume that both good and evil exist, this would be based on an assumption about religion and faith and its existence beyond our own beliefs.

Religion is all about moral and ethics. If you commit a crime like stealing a car, such a thing is not necessarily for neither the good or evil - at least not all the time. In order to prevent such things to happen, we have laws which prohibits such acts and possibly results in punishment in return.

For those who do not believe in religion, there are not supposed to be laws which tells what to do or not to do when it comes to the same moral and ethics. For some reason such people can still be good scientists though and able to carry out great work as well as many other things as well. Such people are neither capable of believing in neither a God as well as any devils which may be on the loose and lurking around in the streets.

Yep!

Sounds like there is general agreement that good and evil don't exist without man.

---

I agree with Bob.
To most other species, what we consider as good or evil simply comes down to a matter of survival. When times are good there is room for magnanimity, but when times are bad or when the hunt is on for a mate, it's everyone for themselves.

T.A.

Since good and evil, like God are products of man's mind the answer is no. Good and evil need us to exist.

---

Bob DeWoody

My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events.

Needs a definition of good and evil.

There are incidents that were regarded as acceptable in the past that would get you locked up for life as a minimum these days and vice versa.

And are similar "evil" acts carried out in the animal kingdom, actually evil or a means of survival?

Yes, but is defining good and evil only something man can do? If so, then would you say that they don't exist without man.

Ok, accept your point, but in the animal kingdom, especially those where there is a Alpha leader does not the Leader make decisions about the behavior of the "guilty".

Anthropomorphism?

Isn't that more about observing human chacteristics in the animal kingdom, such as humour?

And attributing decision making ability to animals is ... ?

Needs a definition of good and evil.

There are incidents that were regarded as acceptable in the past that would get you locked up for life as a minimum these days and vice versa.

And are similar "evil" acts carried out in the animal kingdom, actually evil or a means of survival?

Yes, but is defining good and evil only something man can do? If so, then would you say that they don't exist without man.

Ok, accept your point, but in the animal kingdom, especially those where there is a Alpha leader does not the Leader make decisions about the behavior of the "guilty".

Anthropomorphism?

Isn't that more about observing human chacteristics in the animal kingdom, such as humour?

Needs a definition of good and evil.

There are incidents that were regarded as acceptable in the past that would get you locked up for life as a minimum these days and vice versa.

And are similar "evil" acts carried out in the animal kingdom, actually evil or a means of survival?

Yes, but is defining good and evil only something man can do? If so, then would you say that they don't exist without man.

Ok, accept your point, but in the animal kingdom, especially those where there is a Alpha leader does not the Leader make decisions about the behavior of the "guilty".

Anthropomorphism?

---

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Needs a definition of good and evil.

There are incidents that were regarded as acceptable in the past that would get you locked up for life as a minimum these days and vice versa.

And are similar "evil" acts carried out in the animal kingdom, actually evil or a means of survival?

Yes, but is defining good and evil only something man can do? If so, then would you say that they don't exist without man.

Ok, accept your point, but in the animal kingdom, especially those where there is a Alpha leader does not the Leader make decisions about the behavior of the "guilty".

Bobby, that is getting a little off topic, not that it isn't a worthy subject.

Fair enough. Seems to me that if one were to accept that "good" and "evil" are notions that may arise from an ability to consciously judge, then perhaps Guy had a bit of a point that was on topic. While we know of no other species that has this ability, absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. It was Guy's restriction of this ability to a specific subset of our species that struck me as odd.

---

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

Needs a definition of good and evil.

There are incidents that were regarded as acceptable in the past that would get you locked up for life as a minimum these days and vice versa.

And are similar "evil" acts carried out in the animal kingdom, actually evil or a means of survival?

Yes, but is defining good and evil only something man can do? If so, then would you say that they don't exist without man.

---

Bobby, that is getting a little off topic, not that it isn't a worthy subject.

---