On the 12th July 2002 the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, in a formal statement in the House of Commons, said that after twelve months of negotiation the British Government and Spain are in broad agreement on many of the principles that should underpin a lasting settlement of Spain's sovereignty claim, which included the principle that Britain and Spain should share sovereignty over Gibraltar.

That was voted out by the Gibraltarian referendum in November 2002, 99% to 1%. Since then The UK government has toughened its stance. If I ever meet Jack Straw face to face, he won't be walking home.

Spain warned amid Gibraltar row

The Spanish ambassador to London has been summoned to the UK Foreign Office after Britain lodged a protest about recent Spanish incursions into territorial waters off Gibraltar.

All carried out with the express authority of the Spanish government no doubt.
This government, like others before it, know full well that they will never
gain autonomy over Gibralta. For if Britain was to give up control then this
would only ever occur once Gibralta had first gained international recognition as
an independent country in it's own right. I suspect that this is what Spain
would prefer rather than having a chunk of it's land owned by a foreign country
situated a 1000 miles away.

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The Kite Fliers

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Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

Spain warned amid Gibraltar row

The Spanish ambassador to London has been summoned to the UK Foreign Office after Britain lodged a protest about recent Spanish incursions into territorial waters off Gibraltar.

Wasn't in obtained to militarily secure your trade routes for your colonization efforts in the northern Mediterranean area?

For centuries Gibraltar has been of strategic military importance, as it was recognised that whoever controlled the Straits of Gibraltar, controlled the Mediterranean. Even Plato referred to the Pillars of Hercules. To protect trade routes yes, but Britain did not have plans as such to colonise any part of the Mediterranean.

It played an important part in WWII supporting Malta, and also a certain famous USA General was grateful to have his Headquarters there.

In any case, spoils of war.

That is true yes, we did get Gibraltar as a spoil of war.

As far as I know most civilians left Gibraltar voluntarily during WWII as it was almost completely run by the military. I don't think any sector of society were displaced from their lands so to speak. There isn't much land there to be displaced from, it doesn't take long to travel from the town to Europa point, where there is a mosque. A lot of the rock itself is a military area, the north side facing Spain is the residential part.

Gibraltar in WWII

Jews in Gibraltar

No need as we're already your lapdogs.

Quite right, some of that Marshall Plan money went to you. Sorry if you don't like the interest payments.
<edit>But turn around is fair play. Your tea taxes were a bit high.

But is was lovely tea though, Gary; they don't process tea today like they used
to back then.

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

What did the Romans ever do for us? Ah yes, they taught us how to colonise.
I'd blame the Romans for all this fiasco, oh well, it's all history now.

Who's going to be a colonial power of tomorrow? Could be the Chinese for they
already own half the world as it is....the West had better watch out for the
Chinese piper may come to call soon, "Me money or your land".

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The Kite Fliers

--------------------
Kite fliers: An imaginary club of solo members, those who don't yet
belong to a formal team so "fly their own kites" - as the saying goes.

No need as we're already your lapdogs.

Quite right, some of that Marshall Plan money went to you. Sorry if you don't like the interest payments.
<edit>But turn around is fair play. Your tea taxes were a bit high.

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No need as we're already your lapdogs.

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Quite sure, as the question still hasn't been answered.

Can't help that you don't like the answer. Hope the sand doesn't get into your eye.

None in my eyes, but it looks like you have some in yours. Especially when you quote the Marshall Plan, which has been & still seen as American Imperialism - I suppose you prefer that to colonialism!

Right, so we threw everyone out of Europe and took over. So glad you don't have to worry about joining the EU, since it doesn't exist. Would you like to become a state of the USA?

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Quite sure, as the question still hasn't been answered.

Can't help that you don't like the answer. Hope the sand doesn't get into your eye.

None in my eyes, but it looks like you have some in yours. Especially when you quote the Marshall Plan, which has been & still seen as American Imperialism - I suppose you prefer that to colonialism!

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Quite sure, as the question still hasn't been answered.

Can't help that you don't like the answer. Hope the sand doesn't get into your eye.

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Marshall Plan

"For example, Alberto Alesina and Beatrice Weder, summing up economic literature on foreign aid and corruption, find that aid is primarily used wastefully and self-servingly by government officials, and ends up increasing governmental corruption. This policy of promoting corrupt government is then attributed back to the initial impetus of the Marshall Plan."

Oh dear.

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Seems like we are forever cleaning up the messes created by colonialism.

Really, so answer the question you were asked earlier....

What are you doing in Afghanistan?

Doing the best we can to help that nation ensure a group (Taliban) that gave aid and support to a bunch of murderers (Al Qaeda) does not regain a foothold. In case you hadn't heard, it has already been announced that the US will end combat operations there in 2014.

Hahahaha, love it. 2014 is not an answer.......

...tell me, who actually funded & armed the taliban in the 1st place?

2014 may not be an answer you like, that does not mean it's not an answer.

I suppose you're referring to US support of Afghan Mujahideen, the folks that fought off a Soviet invasion. The Taliban may have risen from that group 14 or so years later, though there was certainly animosity between a leader of the Mujahadeen and the Taliban. Are you sure the facts align with your narrative?

Quite sure, as the question still hasn't been answered.

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Marshall Plan

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Seems like we are forever cleaning up the messes created by colonialism.

Really, so answer the question you were asked earlier....

What are you doing in Afghanistan?

Doing the best we can to help that nation ensure a group (Taliban) that gave aid and support to a bunch of murderers (Al Qaeda) does not regain a foothold. In case you hadn't heard, it has already been announced that the US will end combat operations there in 2014.

Hahahaha, love it. 2014 is not an answer.......

...tell me, who actually funded & armed the taliban in the 1st place?

2014 may not be an answer you like, that does not mean it's not an answer.

I suppose you're referring to US support of Afghan Mujahideen, the folks that fought off a Soviet invasion. The Taliban may have risen from that group 14 or so years later, though there was certainly animosity between a leader of the Mujahadeen and the Taliban. Are you sure the facts align with your narrative?

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

In that case, how about you giving Germany, not only the credit, but compensate for the transportation of German Scientists in 1945 - the very same scientists who got you into space!

Wernher Von Braun

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As the OP here this has rather gone a bit of topic. HOWEVER I am happy to go along with it, provided at some point we could get back to the Gibraltar issue. Why do Americans see our claims to Gibraltar as Colonialism?

Wasn't in obtained to militarily secure your trade routes for your colonization efforts in the northern Mediterranean area? After all Spain and especially Portugal got much better places to get human resource units to sell to your colonies, depriving you of this income source. Of course you did go farther south in Africa as well. Perhaps a convenient fuel stop as it were for those exploits and further into the Indian Ocean. I doubt it had anything to do with a worry that Spain might close your access to the Mediterranean, after all you didn't try and blockade the Spanish or anything like that so there wouldn't have been any reason to think of a tit for tat situation.

In any case, spoils of war. What are we doing with Nazi spoils of war like paintings stolen from the Jews? I'm sure that some persons chose not to stay in Gibraltar while the fight was on, or were forced out. Were they properly compensated? Or was their property, land, confiscated just as the Nazi's did with the property of Jews? Do you think their descendants have claim?

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You were too quick, I changed my post. Don't be too hasty in the reply! :-)

LOL. I think that it's not just Spain/Gibraltar that's the issue. I think its down to all.

Take Spain as an example: - suffering severely due to the financial crisis & with Gibraltar being a 1st class tourist destination, they want it back to take the pressure off them. The same applies to Argentina & the Falklands.

Then we get those who castigate European colonisation: - they may be correct in their views, but & its a big but, the ones with those views are of European ancestry: -

So it seems to me that they want their bread buttered on both sides.

The answer? Very simple really: - move on & help making they're part of the world a better place.

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You were too quick, I changed my post. Don't be too hasty in the reply! :-)

As the OP here this has rather gone a bit of topic. HOWEVER I am happy to go along with it, provided at some point we could get back to the Gibraltar issue. Why do Americans see our claims to Gibraltar as Colonialism. That was in the Victorian era, not 300 years ago!

Sorry Chris, I took that from your OP....1713 to now is 299, so what's a year.

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