conclusion:
- yeah probably we have been made by some aliens.
- no there is any 'code' in any copy made then after the original text/book well preserve and which has been written by the original alien who made it.
- yes you can make a new entity from old DNA but still not a clone.
- and no i wont be ressurected after my death. ^^

Michel,
You made some really good points there!

Yes, when you clone someone, its effectively a brand new baby. And just like any new baby, it starts from scratch and learns the alphabet, goes to school, and learns everything from scratch. You are correct, this does give the cloned person a brand new personality from the first guy. So the clone most definitely will be different. BUT!! You can "teach" the cloned person about their first life.

John.

Which is quite a long way from:

In a few years, people will go into their local grave yards with mechanical excavators and they will dig up their dead relatives and DNA samples will be taken, and their dead relatives will be cloned, and brought back to life!

Why bother with the digger? To get a physical likeness?

---

I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

conclusion:
- yeah probably we have been made by some aliens.
- no there is any 'code' in any copy made then after the original text/book well preserve and which has been written by the original alien who made it.
- yes you can make a new entity from old DNA but still not a clone.
- and no i wont be ressurected after my death. ^^

Michel,
You made some really good points there!

Yes, when you clone someone, its effectively a brand new baby. And just like any new baby, it starts from scratch and learns the alphabet, goes to school, and learns everything from scratch. You are correct, this does give the cloned person a brand new personality from the first guy. So the clone most definitely will be different. BUT!! You can "teach" the cloned person about their first life.

John.

... But the cloned YOU, will be taught about the YOU that exists today. ...

That sounds just like normal parenting. No cloning needed unless you don't like sex with the opposite sex.


Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

woah didnt know there was a such discussion here. since i never never put a feet in here, in politics^^

i should have been very bored to have made that click ! haha

my believes : a tons of caracters in old texts decribe outsiders which arent from here, and everything, all desciptions are from people that werent used to see a modern world. i know.

but the problem about codes, there cant be any code after the first copy translated from the original language written by the old real owner of that text. and it s worst after thousands of translations based on the perception of the reader/translator.

yes we can read between the lines, but it s OUR perception of what it s written and whats its written between the lines ^^

9 billions of persons will have 9 billions of different perceptions. we are all unique.

yes i believe the gods and angels were unearthly, not coming from here, aliens.


clones:
everybody knows we arent only made of 'DNA' ! whats make an person, this person, it s everything that happended in all his life. all his DNA , yes! but also all his memories, all the events, all his thoughts, all the decisions he made, and all the decisions everybody made also all around him , all his life. a clone of a person cant be an exact clone of that person. unless all his history repeate itself every fractions of a seconds , all his life.

to do an exact clone you ll need the exact same clones of his mother, his father, his friends, his town, his world... and ... his same timeline. and even then you ll show him movies, and it will still be a stranger he is seeing. thats not 'him'.

you can make a new person with some base of DNA of an old person. but it will still be entirely a new person.


even if it would be possible...

it s not a question of 'been good' or 'been a bad person' when they say 'worthfully deserve to comeback' it would be a question of being an important person (and had cash in option^^)
a Jesus, a Moses, a Gandi, an Abraham Lincoln, a Coppernic, a Flemming... and also an Elvis, a Bill Gates, an Arabic petrol megalo...

and what the heck why would some 'gods' or 'aliens' would want to rez me ??
me who always been a bullet to the society ?


hell no.


9 billions of people multiplied by all our ascendances up to .... adam ? lol
even if there would be an earth somewhere as big as 100x Jupiter.... we would be like little fishes in a little can ^^
a can of sardines


conclusion:
- yeah probably we have been made by some aliens.
- no there is any 'code' in any copy made then after the original text/book well preserve and which has been written by the original alien who made it.
- yes you can make a new entity from old DNA but still not a clone.
- and no i wont be ressurected after my death. ^^

---

Martin when you die, you will be born again. Or put another way, Martin you will be cloned after you die.

Even if fancifully so, would I know? Or rather, would the clone pick up my mental state and experiences from the moment that I had died?...

No, if your cloned, your clone won't have any recollection of the past life. No more than you can remember any of the memories that were in your fathers head the day your father and mother slept together and created you.

But the cloned YOU, will be taught about the YOU that exists today. Using the Elvis example, the cloned Elvis will not remember his previous life. But people WILL teach him about his previous life. And the cloned Elvis can watch all the TV shows and films he made the first time around.

You can do that for computers and software. (Hence why I went into computer engineering: get it wrong and you can still hit reboot to get back to get it right. The wet squishy stuff has certain critical thresholds irreversibly leading to "game over"...)

So far however, we are a very long way away from being able to do that with squishy biological wet ware that has died and evaporated!


Keep searchin',
Martin

Martin we are NOT a long way off from it, wrong! Its about to happen in the next few years.

Just a few days ago, they gave out the 2012 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine to 2 scientists for the discovery of what is known as "iPS cells" or "Induced pluripotent stem cells"; http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2012/press.html

Martin "iPS cells" are the "key" to human cloning. In the press statement, the Nobel Prize press office don't use the words "Human cloning", and the scientists don't use the words "Human cloning" in their science papers. But thats what it is about! iPS cells allow you to "reset" the clock on any living cell back to the start. In effect, they can take a skin cell and turn it back into an embryonic stem cell, or an embryo. This means we could clone you just by scratching some skin off your finger and reseting the cell to make a brand new "Martin ML1".

This is real, its happening right now. Just most people don't read the latest edition of Nature Genetics or the Journal of Cell Biology.

John.

... There was one Jesus, and only one Jesus. You will never ever ever randomly get the same "Jesus" combination of DNA, ever!

However, there are enough people across the world and across time that although you will not get an exact copy, you will very likely get someone who behaves and acts very similarly to the presumed "Jesus". No God needed for that.

Martin when you die, you will be born again. Or put another way, Martin you will be cloned after you die.

Even if fancifully so, would I know? Or rather, would the clone pick up my mental state and experiences from the moment that I had died?...

You can do that for computers and software. (Hence why I went into computer engineering: get it wrong and you can still hit reboot to get back to get it right. The wet squishy stuff has certain critical thresholds irreversibly leading to "game over"...)

So far however, we are a very long way away from being able to do that with squishy biological wet ware that has died and evaporated!


Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Oh fer hecks sake, of course it is not going to happen! Only religious nuts believe in that sort of stuff. "It will happen because god told me so". No he didn't, just because you read something in a book that is what you want to believe, you have convinced yourself it is true. But you are too prone to exaggeration and emotional rhetoric to try to get your point across to others.

If you feel it is your mission in life to educate and convert the world, why are you wasting your time here at Seti? Go on a lecture tour somewhere.

Chris,
My understanding of what you said there is that you don't think people can be cloned. Well Chris this is simple science. This is happening right now today with plants and animals. And it will happen with human beings. In a few years, people will go into their local grave yards with mechanical excavators and they will dig up their dead relatives and DNA samples will be taken, and their dead relatives will be cloned, and brought back to life!

This is a scientific certainty! Whether you believe it or not Chris is completely irrelevant, it will happen! You won't have any say in the matter.

John.

Do you think its not going to happen? Is that it?

You can get the ingredients of another "Jesus" just by random circumstance. No Divine Intervention or inventions needed.

Does that count as being "born again"?

There are ideas and passions that transcend mere cloned bodies. More significant is what whatever body does. And then also, ideas can have a body and will of their own if known by (enough) people to be exercised and given life...


Keep searchin',
Martin

(Apologies for the backwards ID pun... Ouch! :-) )

Martin,
I don't know what that means?

You are "Martin ML1". I don't know you full name, and it doesn't matter. Martin if you have a brother called Billy, then Billy is Billy, and nobody else. If you have a sister called Mary. Mary is Mary and there will never be another Mary. You are "Martin ML1", and there will never ever ever be another "Martin ML1" no matter how many genetic combinations you go through. So Jesus is the same. There was one Jesus, and only one Jesus. You will never ever ever randomly get the same "Jesus" combination of DNA, ever!

Martin when you die, you will be born again. Or put another way, Martin you will be cloned after you die.

John.

Oh fer hecks sake, of course it is not going to happen! Only religious nuts believe in that sort of stuff. "It will happen because god told me so". No he didn't, just because you read something in a book that is what you want to believe, you have convinced yourself it is true. But you are too prone to exaggeration and emotional rhetoric to try to get your point across to others.

If you feel it is your mission in life to educate and convert the world, why are you wasting your time here at Seti? Go on a lecture tour somewhere.

Do you think its not going to happen? Is that it?

You can get the ingredients of another "Jesus" just by random circumstance. No Divine Intervention or inventions needed.

Does that count as being "born again"?

There are ideas and passions that transcend mere cloned bodies. More significant is what whatever body does. And then also, ideas can have a body and will of their own if known by (enough) people to be exercised and given life...


Keep searchin',
Martin

(Apologies for the backwards ID pun... Ouch! :-) )

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Yep, same here. Now I understand why the Irish were the butts of many jokes. Just a shame that we all got tarnished with the same brush.

---

At this point I just give up. There is simply no point in trying to discuss anything sensibly with Johnney. I have agreed with him that there seems to be evidence of past ET visits to earth, and that DNA cloning can happen. But as far as the rest of it goes I'm afraid he's off with the fairies. He has these religious fixations that he seems to genuinely believe in, and simply cannot understand why others don't agree with him.

I thought that King Tut was far fetched enough, now we have Elvis Presley ...... Whoever next? Abraham Lincoln?

But the fact remains, this is about to happen, and everyone was told about it in the Bible.

If I came back here in 20 years I'm sure he would still be saying the same thing. I find it all rather sad really. Walks off shaking ones head.

Why Chris? Do you think its not going to happen? Is that it?

John.

At this point I just give up. There is simply no point in trying to discuss anything sensibly with Johnney. I have agreed with him that there seems to be evidence of past ET visits to earth, and that DNA cloning can happen. But as far as the rest of it goes I'm afraid he's off with the fairies. He has these religious fixations that he seems to genuinely believe in, and simply cannot understand why others don't agree with him.

I thought that King Tut was far fetched enough, now we have Elvis Presley ...... Whoever next? Abraham Lincoln?

But the fact remains, this is about to happen, and everyone was told about it in the Bible.

If I came back here in 20 years I'm sure he would still be saying the same thing. I find it all rather sad really. Walks off shaking ones head.

You still don't "get it". Elvis gets cloned, would be nice as I enjoyed his music.

However, who's to say that the "Cloned" Elvis wants to be a singer? He might want to be President!

But, if you then state that he can be taught & shown what the original did, wouldn't he then become your puppet?

How is this complex?

Are you a puppet? No your not. So why would Elvis be a puppet? When he is cloned, he can do whatever he wants. If he wants to be a baker, thats his choice. If he wants to do knitting competition's on the weekends, then thats what he will do. But in my personal opinion, knowing what the original Elvis was like, i would imagine he might want to sing an occasional song. But hay, what the heck, maybe he won't. Its irrelevant.

The point is about the resurrection of the dead. The Bible said its going to happen, and i'm pointing out that, in actuality, its about to happen in the next few years! And the vast majority of the world us unaware that its about to happen.

John.

You still don't "get it". Elvis gets cloned, would be nice as I enjoyed his music.

However, who's to say that the "Cloned" Elvis wants to be a singer? He might want to be President!

But, if you then state that he can be taught & shown what the original did, wouldn't he then become your puppet?

---

Sorry that won't work as by the time he reached 20, he would be too accustomed to the corruption & if the Egyptians made him their leader, it would not take him long to become another Saddam Hussein!

Think about it, rather than using the bible & "your lost book" as reference points - instead use today's world as that reference point.

If you still fail to grasp the situation, scour the international news for at least a week: - Fundamentalists stuck in the 13th century wanting the 21st century to go back 800 years just so that they can rule that world?

You think the world will let them do that?

Sirius B,
Your niggling over very minor points that only concern my example of King Tut.

Lets try someone more recent, someone that everyone today knows and loves.

Elvis Presley!! Died: August 16, 1977

Now Elvis isn't dead that long, it will be easy peasy to get a DNA sample from his grave. And everybody LOVES Elvis!! You think people won't want to hear Elvis sing those songs again! Elvis Presley WILL LIVE AGAIN! and the whole world will welcome him back with open arms. Elvis will be the King people always wanted him to be.

THIS WILL HAPPEN! and it will happen very soon!

We could stay here naming people all day. We could argue if these people will be accepted or rejected when they are cloned. But the fact remains, this is about to happen, and everyone was told about it in the Bible.

To Quote Jesus Christ:
John 3:7 "You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’"

John 3:7

Sorry that won't work as by the time he reached 20, he would be too accustomed to the corruption & if the Egyptians made him their leader, it would not take him long to become another Saddam Hussein!

Think about it, rather than using the bible & "your lost book" as reference points - instead use today's world as that reference point.

If you still fail to grasp the situation, scour the international news for at least a week: - Fundamentalists stuck in the 13th century wanting the 21st century to go back 800 years just so that they can rule that world?

You think the world will let them do that?

---

Wake up John. Cloning has become a science fact rather than the science fiction it once was.

Ahhhhh... yes, this is exactly what i have been saying.

However, the one thing that cannot be cloned is the subconscious mind & one's memories.

So should you or I be cloned, they will not be the same as us: They'll be just 2 dumb shells.

Sirius,
How is a human baby a "dumb shell", to quote your exact words?

If you had noticed, just a few posts back, i explaind to Chris how it works. Its not complex, its easy to understand.

This is what i said to Chris:

Chris,
Ok, so you understand that we can clone a human being, good!. And the clone, lets say King Tut as an example, would be an identical DNA copy of the King Tut that lived in Egypt thousands of years ago.

So todays scientists clone the guy, and, naturally he would be named "Tutankhamun", because we know exactly who he is. And as he grows up, because everyone worldwide knows who he is, he would be raised as royalty. And he would have teachers that would teach him everything about ancient Egypt, and about his previous life. He will get very special treatment because of who he is!

So by the time this cloned King Tut is about 20 years of age, he would know exactly who he is, and he would be one of the most famous celebrities in the world! He would be on every TV show and everyone would revere him. The Egyptians would crown him king!

John.

Wake up John. Cloning has become a science fact rather than the science fiction it once was.

However, the one thing that cannot be cloned is the subconscious mind & one's memories.

So should you or I be cloned, they will not be the same as us: They'll be just 2 dumb shells.

---

Yes, we all know that the ability to clone animals has been proved and that cloning human beings is also scientifically possible, and will happen one day. ...

Errr... Isn't that happening already many times each and every day?...

As in when humans and other creatures give birth to twins.

Also note all the research and results for the "nature" or "nurture" arguments surrounding how twins develop. (I consider most likely there is a combination of both, in that some things are 'pre-programmed' and the rest develops dependant upon genetic traits/predisposition and external influence/experience. ... But that is for another thread...)


Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)