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What would convert you to God?
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Johnney Guinness Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 3093 Credit: 2,652,287 RAC: 0 |
What would convert you to God? This question is mainly aimed at atheists, agnostics and skeptics of God and religion. What would it take to convert you to believing in God? Try take the question seriously, don't be too sarcastic. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I just want to know what would have to happen before you would start believing in God? Here's some idea's; If Extraterrestrials landed and said they were God maybe? Some miracles maybe? Raising the dead? Seeing one of your dead relatives alive in front of you again? Maybe your dead father, mother, grand father, great grand father, etc, etc? Booming voices from the sky maybe? Massive alien mother-ship in Earth orbit maybe? Barack Obama announcing an asteroid is about to destroy humanity maybe? What would have to happen that would make you believe in God? John. |
W-K 666 Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 19048 Credit: 40,757,560 RAC: 67 |
The appearance of someone/thing who/that knows all the laws of science, maths, logic etc. in fact everything. But where would that help us, it is much better to figure them out for ourselves. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
If any of the occurrences that Johnney has listed actually happened, it could be down to physics and science that we don't yet know about. It doesn't have to be caused by some divine intervention. If someone lands in a spaceship and declares himself to be god, then fine. Hope he can spare 5 minutes to answer some questions. ^ I second this. Reality Internet Personality |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24879 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
To be quite honest, even though I was born in a predominately catholic country, baptised into the faith but not been a practising one since my schooldays, it would take: - "A divine being floating in the sky for all to see, waving his/her hands & all selfishness, greed & hatred no longer in existence within any human being alive or to be born from that moment on". |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30639 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
God to have actually created the universe ... |
bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3 |
If any of the occurrences that Johnney has listed actually happened, it could be down to physics and science that we don't yet know about. It doesn't have to be caused by some divine intervention. If someone lands in a spaceship and declares himself to be god, then fine. Hope he can spare 5 minutes to answer some questions. +1 from me also, though in preference to "nothing would convert me to anything", I think I'd say "I can't think of anything that would convert me". I don't think I can rule out the possibility completely, though my imagination fails when trying to devise a test that I'd find satisfying. As Chris notes, many of the proposals in the OP are covered by the third of Arthur C. Clarke's Three Laws, namely "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.". I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... |
Horacio Send message Joined: 14 Jan 00 Posts: 536 Credit: 75,967,266 RAC: 0 |
I dont need to be converted, but I think that there are people who will never be "converted"... (Assuming that God is going to respect the free will, of course... :D) I mean, if God appears in front of them and gives them whatever proove they need to accept him, then they wont believe in him, they will know him... and learning something new, doesnt imply a convertion... But, even for a believer like me, its rather difficult to find something that will be a definately proove... I know Im a finite and limited beeing, any beeing slightly more advanced or slighly less limited will be able to do things that for me are impossible to even imagine or understand. |
bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3 |
I dont need to be converted, but I think that there are people who will never be "converted"... (Assuming that God is going to respect the free will, of course... :D) If you're referring to the free will of the conscious "I", it may be that neuroscientists and psychologists have less respect for it than you might like to believe, let alone attribute to some unknown being. I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... |
Johnney Guinness Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 3093 Credit: 2,652,287 RAC: 0 |
To everyone, Most of the people who have posted to this thread are aware of the research i have been carrying out down in the Middle East, and the "old book" i am decoding. These are some of my current results; Soon, in the next year, or next few years, you are going to hear scientific news on your television. All the news channels all over the world, in every country will carry the same news story. This scientific news story will be about a team of scientists and these scientists will have "cloned" an extinct creature that has been extinct for a long time! Now while this scientific news story about cloning the extinct creature will be fascinating in itself, it will not be the true news story. The real news story will be peoples reaction and the public discussion that will follow this cloning event! The public discussion that will follow the cloning of the extinct creature will be about human cloning. And the basis for the discussion will be simple; "If we can clone an extinct creature that has been dead for many years, then we can clone human beings that have died". The discussion will be very public and will be discussed on TV stations all over the world. The discussion will be about "raising the dead", or the "resurrection" that is described in the Bible. The discussion will continue for ......I think the Bible says 1355 days, or something close. About 3 and a half years. Then it will happen, very quickly. The first person to be cloned will be announced on the TV. It will most likely be a child that died recently in some car accident, or something like that. But once its announced, there will be many more people who have recently lost their loved ones will want their relative cloned, and brought back to life. Once it starts, it will be unstoppable. Once people realise just how easy it is to clone a dead person, there will be hoards of people going into church grave yards with excavators to dig up their deceased loved ones to get them cloned and returned to life. This will be the first block of the "resurrected" as described in the Biblical Book of Revelation. That will continue for many years, and as time goes on, the scientists will gain more experience and dare to clone older and older bodies that have been dug up. Within a few years, they will have perfected the cloning and will be resurrecting people who died thousands of years ago. The scientists will figure out that you don't actually need a perfectly preserved body to extract the DNA. You can literally clone anyone! After many years, the scientists will announce that there is a "flaw" in what they were doing, a flaw in the cloning process. But at this stage, many tens of thousands of people, or even millions, will have been resurrected. The flaw will be.......... I will discuss the "flaw" later. See how ye get on with that much first. John. |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
To everyone, “If people believe they’ll go to heaven no matter what they’ll lose control over themselves.†“Why would you say that?†“Because nothing anyone does ... will matter to them. The real worlds would turn into a game ..., people would kill, rape, destroy, they’d be forgiven and blessed and go to heaven anyway.†|
Johnney Guinness Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 3093 Credit: 2,652,287 RAC: 0 |
“If people believe they’ll go to heaven no matter what they’ll lose control over themselves.†Sarge, I never said anything about heaven. If someone is cloned, they will not be in heaven. All the people who will be cloned in the first batch will ultimately die again. All these cloned people will still have a lifespan of about 80 or so years, just like their first life. And yes, the Bible describes this event as a very turbulent time. Yes, there will be widespread panic as the wealthy try to "buy" their way so they get cloned first. The rich and powerful people will "think" they are beating everyone too it by being the first ones. But they will be wrong! In the end, after the great tribulation, only the people that followed God's commandments will get the true prize. They will be the ones that will benefit from the tree of life. And nobody can buy their way to the tree of life. Only those that truly deserve it will get it. John. |
Johnney Guinness Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 3093 Credit: 2,652,287 RAC: 0 |
Ok, I'm pretty much sure that I understand what Johnney is saying. We know already that we can extract DNA from long dead mammoths and similar that have been preserved in ice. We also are almost at a stage where we could clone a copy. From there it is a small step to applying that technology to human DNA. Wrong Chris, Some of the things you say are right, but some are wrong. Everybody can be cloned, everyone that has ever lived. But especially the people God wants to come back. God has saved a DNA copy of the people who will get eternal life. Chris a cloned human being is NOT a physical approximation! Its a perfect copy in every possible way. It just won't have the "memory" of the previous life. The cloned person will be just like your twin. But not all twin babies are identical. But occasionally, you do get identical twins. Your clone will be your twin. So occasionally nature does this anyway! There are lots of identical twins today anyway. And no Chris, we are NOT lukewarm with cloning. There are thousands of labs around the world doing it every day. Not just to genetically modified crops, they are doing it with living creatures. Its not isolated Chris, its widespread at this stage. Its easy chris, when you know how it works. Anyone that tried to "buy" their way into heaven by freezing their body in a cryogenic freezer won't be cloned as the sub-zero freezing will have destroyed their genes. John. |
James Sotherden Send message Joined: 16 May 99 Posts: 10436 Credit: 110,373,059 RAC: 54 |
As cremation also destroys DNA. [/quote] Old James |
Johnney Guinness Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 3093 Credit: 2,652,287 RAC: 0 |
As cremation also destroys DNA. Correct James! Anyone that chooses cremation to dispose of their body after death won't be coming back. If these people had read the Bible they would have know that the Bible does not tell you to cremate your body after death. The Bible tells you to put your body under the ground for safe keeping. But nobody can hide either if they did bad things during their life. God has a way of recording people's DNA code so that every single person can be brought back for the judgement. Everybody will be judged according to their actions and deeds. Its all recorded in books. John. |
bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3 |
Ok, I'm pretty much sure that I understand what Johnney is saying. We know already that we can extract DNA from long dead mammoths and similar that have been preserved in ice. We also are almost at a stage where we could clone a copy. From there it is a small step to applying that technology to human DNA. Your understanding of the science appears to be in need of a little updating. Freezing does not necessarily destroy genes, it's used routinely by sperm banks, where "[t]he sperm is stored in small vials or straws of holding between 0.4 and 1.0 ml and cryogenically preserved in liquid nitrogen tanks.". Cloning of plants has been around for 1000s of years, every time a plant is propagated via a cutting a clone is created. Cloning mammals is a different, and I believe Chris is right about the lukewarm nature of the public on the question of cloning humans, in many nations it is already explicitly illegal (unfortunately the database commonly linked appears to have moved though it is available via archive.org here, with this you'll see that the Council of Europe and it's member nations have agreed "Any intervention seeking to create a human being genetically identical to another human being, whether living or dead, is prohibited."). I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... |
Horacio Send message Joined: 14 Jan 00 Posts: 536 Credit: 75,967,266 RAC: 0 |
Anyone that tried to "buy" their way into heaven by freezing their body in a cryogenic freezer won't be cloned as the sub-zero freezing will have destroyed their genes.They are not buying a way to heaven... they are just buying a ticket to the future techonology... I doubt they even believe in heaven and eternal life in the spiritual way... All these cloned people will still have a lifespan of about 80 or so years God has saved a DNA copy of the people who will get eternal life.Your idea of eternal life is a bit shorter than mine... The Bible tells you to put your body under the ground for safe keeping.The Bible tells you to put your body under the ground to avoid the spread of disease among people that were not aware of the existence of bacteria and viruses... The Bible is full of good advices (and others not so good) disguised as "speech of God" because, for the people to whom the advices were directed were no able to understand the underlying explanations... In that times, priests were the more educated men (if not the only ones...) Dont get me wrong, I believe in God, I just dont trust in those that claim that they are God's representatives... God has a way of recording people's DNA code so that every single person can be brought back for the judgement. a cloned human being is NOT a physical approximation! Its a perfect copy in every possible way. It just won't have the "memory" of the previous life. Everybody will be judged according to their actions and deeds.Not sure how "I" will be judged if my clone is who will be punished (or rewarded) and all my memories, personality and experiences will still be missing... |
Johnney Guinness Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 3093 Credit: 2,652,287 RAC: 0 |
And Bobby i suppose your going to update me with your extensive knowledge of genetics? Thanks, i look forward to that. John. |
Johnney Guinness Send message Joined: 11 Sep 06 Posts: 3093 Credit: 2,652,287 RAC: 0 |
Not sure how "I" will be judged if my clone is who will be punished (or rewarded) and all my memories, personality and experiences will still be missing... Horacio, With you sitting in front of your maker, your life will be played back before you. And you will be judged according to your actions and deeds. It won't be much different to sitting in a modern court of law or court of justice for committing a crime today. But when the biblical judgement comes, its God's law that you will be answering too, not man made laws. And just like a court of law might use CCTV coverage and show film clips of your crimes, God's judgement will be similar. John. |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
Johnney, as uaual, Johnney, you read my post too literally, Johnney. (I'm 5 steps ahead of you. Johnney.) |
skildude Send message Joined: 4 Oct 00 Posts: 9541 Credit: 50,759,529 RAC: 60 |
Johnny quotes the bible as saying that bodies should be buried in waiting for the resurrection. Being that we've been burying Christians for about 2000 years. I assume someone was supposed to dig those folks back up with the time comes. Otherwise being resurrected would really stink 6 ft under In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face. Diogenes Of Sinope |
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